Environmental Heresies

[sketerpot]

There's an excellent article about some things that environmentalists may (and should) change their minds about.

Over the next ten years, I predict, the mainstream of the environmental movement will reverse its opinion and activism in four major areas: population growth, urbani­zation, genetically engineered organisms, and nuclear power.

[linky to the rest]

Those of you who have been saying this stuff all along can gloat about it, or maybe even discuss it. Enjoy!

[Enforcer Talen]

weird, I just read that in the student lounge.

[Mayabird]

Damn fucking straight! About time people starting realizing that nuclear power isn't TEH EVEL and that rural areas aren't these areas of happy perfection.

Silly romantics.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Nuclear power is one thing changing already. The irony here, however, is that the Scottish Nationalist Party (SNP) is pressing for NO nuke plants in Scotland at all and to rely only on green alternatives (admittedly, they're world leaders in that area, but still).

Urbanisation is inevitable and GM crops will stay no matter how many Frankenfood flyers they post.

[Civil War Man]

Urbanisation is inevitable and GM crops will stay no matter how many Frankenfood flyers they post.

Then, of course, there's the whole little thing about genetically engineered food being able to feed billions of people who'd otherwise starve if everyone took the Frankenfood bullshit to heart.

[Lord Zentei]

Over the next ten years, I predict, the mainstream of the environmental movement will reverse its opinion and activism in four major areas: population growth, urbani­zation, genetically engineered organisms, and nuclear power.

Yes! Finally some sense from the environmental crowd. The bullshit they have been pandering for so long is the reason I have been cold-sholdering them even if my sympathies are with the environment.

Next up (I hope): realizing that marine mammals are not holy cows after all and that if one species of marine mammal is endangered that does not mean that they should all be protected.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Over the next ten years, I predict, the mainstream of the environmental movement will reverse its opinion and activism in four major areas: population growth, urbani­zation, genetically engineered organisms, and nuclear power.

Yes! Finally some sense from the environmental crowd. The bullshit they have been pandering for so long is the reason I have been cold-sholdering them even if my sympathies are with the environment.

Next up (I hope): realizing that marine mammals are not holy cows after all and that if one species of marine mammal is endangered that does not mean that they should all be protected.

Personally I think they should be simply by nature of their intelligence.

[Lord Zentei]

Personally I think they should be simply by nature of their intelligence.

Give me a break. Pigs are intelligent. Should we stop eating them? And what is all this about marine mammals in general being oh so much smarter than land based mammals anyway? Bah.

[ArmorPierce]

Personally I think they should be simply by nature of their intelligence.

Give me a break. Pigs are intelligent. Should we stop eating them? And what is all this about marine mammals in general being oh so much smarter than land based mammals anyway? Bah.

Well they do say that dolphins are possibly more intelligent than chimps and some say that they are possbily comparable to humans. Chimp infants have been shown to be smarter than human infants of equal age till a certain point. Do you think that we should be able to hunt and eat chimps?

[The Spartan]

Do you think that we should be able to hunt and eat chimps?

Don't certain tribes already do that?

[Lord Zentei]

Well they do say that dolphins are possibly more intelligent than chimps and some say that they are possbily comparable to humans. Chimp infants have been shown to be smarter than human infants of equal age till a certain point. Do you think that we should be able to hunt and eat chimps?

"They say", do they? I respond with "show me". Comprable to humans? Pull the other one.

Newborn bovine calves are smarter than newborn human infants, which also counts for jack.

[ArmorPierce]

"They say", do they? I respond with "show me". Comprable to humans? Pull the other one.

The architecture of the dolphin brain also has two hemispheres, but in addition to the three lobes, its cerebral organ has a fourth and well-developed lobe named the paralimbic lobe. It is unique to cetaceans and is the lobe where all senses (hearing, touch, taste, vision, and motor activities) are located. The benefit of having all the senses and motor activities in one lobe (as opposed to separation of senses which occurs in humans) is the ability to make immediate and complex perceptions far beyond human conception. On the outside surface of the brain is a cellular coveringcalled the neo-cortex. It is the most recently developed part of the brain, which is responsible for forming perceptions, memories and thoughts and what we consider to be higher intellect. All the folds and convolutions of the neo-cortex, which make the brain resemble a cauliflower, create more surface area of the cortex in a smaller space. Dolphins have more convolution than even healthy, intelligent humans.

Onto the lighter side: humor and playfulness. If these were indeed the mark of intelligence, dolphins would be at the top of the cosmic pie. Humor and playing are high on the evolutionary ladder; only those who have finished their survival duties have time to play. In addition, there has been evidence from cases of brain damage in humans indicating that a high ration of neo-cortical association neurons to limbic system to brain stem neurons is necessary for humor and higher forms of creativity. Dolphins have a higher neo-cortical-limbic ratio than even healthy, intelligent humans.

Dolphins communicate with each other, no doubt. The fact that they live in water makes their communication very alien to us. Sound moves faster and further in water. The dolphins have behavior related to their unique communication which is unexplainable to us. For instance, "performing surgery." This is a term I coined on a dolphin expedition on which I observed many members of a pod echo-locating towards one individual dolphin.

http://www.bellydancegoddessworkoutdolp ... gence.html

Bottlenose dolphins and orcas, the most studied of all whales and dolphins, have shown they can learn behaviour and language. They can also modify taught behaviours and invent new ones. Dolphins have been seen to manipulate objects and even use tools. Wild Indo-Pacific bottlenose dolphins in Shark Bay, Australia, are often seen carrying sponges on the ends of their beaks to protect them whilst they forage in the sediments on the seafloor where spiny sea urchins might otherwise hurt them

Emotions such as parental love, joy and grief following the loss of a close family member have also been attributed to whale and dolphin behaviour. In one striking example from the 1990s, two male orcas appeared to show grief after the body of an older female, believed to be their mother, was found dead. For a day or two after the dead body was found, these two animals swam together visiting again and again the places that their mother had passed in the last few days of her life.

http://www.wdcs.org/dan/publishing.nsf/ ... C700323B80

In experiments where a probe inserted in the brain of a dolphin produced pleasurable "rewards" when they pushed a rod, the dolphin actually watched researchers assemble the structure and immediately used it to get the reward. When the same experiment was carried out with chimps, it took them an average 100 tries to learn the same action/reward process.

http://www.amusingfacts.com/facts/Detai ... poise.html

Newborn bovine calves are smarter than newborn human infants, which also counts for jack.

So you support hunting and eating chimps? Studies have shown that young chimps between 2-6 are smarter than human children between 2-5.

"IN ADVERTS they are amusing creatures that ape human behaviour. But scientists have found that young chimpanzees can be more intelligent in their approach to some tasks than children of a similar age.

An experiment conducted at St Andrews University revealed that while children tried to tackle a puzzle without trying to analyse it, chimps of the same age used logic and managed to solve it.

The research, which will be published this week in the quarterly academic journal Animal Cognition, describes how 12 chimps from a Ugandan nature reserve aged from two to six were pitted against 16 children aged from three to five.

Both groups were given boxes with two compartments. The top compartment was empty, the other contained food for the chimps or stickers for the children. Half the boxes were transparent, the rest opaque.

A researcher lifted the lid on the top of each box and made a stabbing motion with a stick in the empty compartment, as though she was trying to skewer the prize. The demonstration was misleading because the food and stickers could be reached only by opening a flap at the front of the box.

The chimps with the transparent box immediately realised that the stabbing motion was pointless and ignored it. Instead, they opened the flap and took out the food. Those with the opaque box soon reached the same conclusion.

However, all the children continued to stab at the empty compartment. To discount the possibility that the children were trying to please the researchers, they were left alone and filmed secretly. Only a few managed to retrieve a sticker after much futile prodding.

Professor Andrew Whiten, head of the Scottish Primate Research Group at St Andrews, which carried out the study, said this was clear evidence that chimps adopted a more intelligent approach to solving puzzles, even though they might not have the capacity of humans for other skills such as speech.

According to Whiten, a three-year-old chimp from the Congo called Baluku even appeared to understand that he was being tested and enjoyed the challenge.

“The chimps worked out that the stabbing motion was irrelevant, unlike the children. They were more discriminating and didn’t mindlessly copy everything they saw,” he said.

“Children were prone to copy everything, which appears a rather less intelligent approach.

“These findings force us to rethink what’s going on in chimps’ heads. It shows they learn from adults in a sophisticated way and that is evidence of culture in a non-human primate.”

Vicky Horner, who worked on the study, added: “All the children blindly copied everything I did, perhaps because as humans we’re predisposed to copy adults.

“The results were surprising and fascinating. The tests clearly show intelligence among the chimps.”

The team is now planning further tests involving older chimps and children. "

[sketerpot]

Do you think that we should be able to hunt and eat chimps?

Don't certain tribes already do that?

"Chimps are people too!" + "Tribes are sacred!" = BRAIN EXPLOSION!

And regarding dolphins, I say that if they're smart enough to talk, use tools, and gang-rape female dolphins, they're smart enough to warrant serious study.

[The Spartan]

"Chimps are people too!" + "Tribes are sacred!" = BRAIN EXPLOSION!

I wasn't trying to imply that tribes were sacred. It was asked if allowing the hunting of chimps was condoned by Lord Zentei and I was attempting to point out that it already (I think) happens, whether we condone it or not.

[sketerpot]

"Chimps are people too!" + "Tribes are sacred!" = BRAIN EXPLOSION!

I wasn't trying to imply that tribes were sacred. It was asked if allowing the hunting of chimps was condoned by Lord Zentei and I was attempting to point out that it already (I think) happens, whether we condone it or not.

Oh, I wasn't referring to you or Lord Zentei. I was imagining what would happen in the mind of a typical Greenpeace-style nut who was taught to believe that chimp hunting is evil and that tribal societies are composed of Noble Savages.

[The Spartan]

Oh, I wasn't referring to you or Lord Zentei. I was imagining what would happen in the mind of a typical Greenpeace-style nut who was taught to believe that chimp hunting is evil and that tribal societies are composed of Noble Savages.

Oh, well that makes more sense.

Actually, I kind of like that image...

[ArmorPierce]

Chimps are being hunted, yes, but I think it's suppose to be illegal.

[Castor Troy]

Meat is food. Meat is good.

Eating meat is not wrong.

Why do people so fanatically object to that?

[Lord Zentei]

<snip blah blah>

Whatever. When they start forming civilizations and sophisticated language I might be impressed.

Orcas "appeared to show grief"? Gosh.

Incidentally, nice hasty generalization fallacy. "Dolphins are teh smart. No one can eat ANY marine mammal."

So you support hunting and eating chimps? Studies have shown that young chimps between 2-6 are smarter than human children between 2-5.

<snip more blah blah>

Nice bait and switch. I repeat. NEWBORN BOVINES ARE SMARTER THAN NEWBORN HUMAN INFANTS. It matters precisely jack and shit how smart their young are compared with ours. In any case, it is hard enough to create a culture blind IQ test. Now you are claiming that there have been species blind tests?

[Civil War Man]

[Fishy Joe]The only reason we don't eat human is because it tastes lousy![/Fishy Joe]

Whale meat is edible (Inuits ate it before the environmentalist hysteria). Don't know how good it tastes, and you have to carve your way through a lot of blubber to get to the meat. I'll probably stick with cow, chicken, and pig for now because I know those taste good.

[HemlockGrey]

When they start forming civilizations and sophisticated language I might be impressed.

I've always wondered...how do we know they haven't? After all, dolphin-speak is quite complex, and as for civilization...it's not like they'd be able to build cities with their flippers.

[Civil War Man]

I've always wondered...how do we know they haven't? After all, dolphin-speak is quite complex, and as for civilization...it's not like they'd be able to build cities with their flippers.

[Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he’s achieved so much: the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But, conversely, the dolphins believed that they were more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons. Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending demolition of Earth, and had made many attempts to alert mankind to the danger. But most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs, or whistle for titbits, so they eventually gave up and left the Earth by their own means - shortly before the Vogons arrived. The last ever dolphin message was misinterpreted as a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards somersault through a hoop, whilst whistling the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’. But, in fact, the message was this: “So long, and thanks for all the fish”. In fact, there was only one species on the planet more intelligent than dolphins and they spent a lot of their time in behavioural research laboratories running round inside wheels, and conducting frighteningly elegant and subtle experiments on man.[/Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy]

[Lord Zentei]

Whale meat is edible (Inuits ate it before the environmentalist hysteria). Don't know how good it tastes, and you have to carve your way through a lot of blubber to get to the meat. I'll probably stick with cow, chicken, and pig for now because I know those taste good.

Whale meat tastes as follows:

Imagine something with the general taste of beef, but the consistency of liver.

Add a touch of game (as in Bambi).

Add a touch of seafood.

The quality varies quite a bit, but if properly prepared, it can be quite good. Though I do prefer beef, personally.

[His Divine Shadow]

I've tried whale meat, that shit sucked ass.

[Lord Zentei]

I've tried whale meat, that shit sucked ass.

Yeah, It can do that, sometimes. As I said, the quality varies quite a bit, and it needs to be prepared properly. Bit of a lottery.