Creationism in public school?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-04-26 03:08pm

So, is the person who started this thread going to post again, or what?

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2005-04-26 03:13pm

Braedley wrote:Did I once say I was a creationist, or that I belived in ID? No. I was only playing the devil's advocate to encourage further discussion on the subject. I'm a strong proponent for evolution, but that doesn't mean there's no room for God in my life. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive.

While it is possible for a scientist to believe in a god and still be a scientist, science and faith are mutually exclusive. A good scientist keeps his or her faith out of his or her work. Especially since they both require different paradigms of thinking. Science achieves its conclusions though a process of formulating hypotheses, gathering data, and then objectively and rationally considering the results. Religion demands that one takes a subjective, irrational approach . . . a leap of faith.

What is there to live for if there is no one to great you after you cease to be physically alive? All of you should ask yourself that question. Science still trumps religion in my life, but it doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

What is there to live for if there is nothing after this? How about your life? To the non-religious, this life is all the eternity you get, plus whatever impact you have as a meme after you're dead and gone. The sum total of what you are is what you choose to put into your life. So you live for yourself, or you live for your friends and family, or you make contributions to whatever field you've chosen to work for, or you live for your wife and your children. There are a lot of important things to live for now while you're still alive, without even beginning to think about what happens after you're dead.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-04-26 03:26pm

This is such bullshit. How many times has Creationism been shown to be almost certainly false? Anybody who actually thinks it's a scientifically reasonable theory is so full of shit it's a wonder they don't get swarmed by dung beetles.
Jesus H Christ, by the standards of this board I'm probably close to being a Christian fundie and even I have long ago accepted that it's bullshit and moved on.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-04-26 03:36pm

Junghalli wrote:This is such bullshit. How many times has Creationism been shown to be almost certainly false? Anybody who actually thinks it's a scientifically reasonable theory is so full of shit it's a wonder they don't get swarmed by dung beetles.
Jesus H Christ, by the standards of this board I'm probably close to being a Christian fundie and even I have long ago accepted that it's bullshit and moved on.

there isn't any -almost- about it. creationism doesn't even attempt to prove anything. it basically goes "well, there's alot of stuff we can't explain. and since science can't explain everything, there -must- be a creator!". it's basically alot of handwavium combined with fancy sophistry.

Braedley · Post by **Braedley** » 2005-04-26 04:13pm

The exisitance of an afterlife, or the lack thereof, is yet to be proven or disproven. It is one of (if not the only) great mysteries of life. For some, the faith that they will see family and friends after they die is all they have to keep them going. These people don't have to be creationists, and don't even have to believe in the bible (or any other sacred text), they just have to believe in something. I won't pass judgement on those non-believers, that's not my place, but can you honestly say it's all worth it, even if you were to end up being the most successful person alive?

In any case, I seem to have sent this thread in a totally different direction than what the author intended, and I appologize. My faith is my own, and everyone elses faith (or lack thereof) is their own, and you can't shove it down other's throat, you can just make them question. I can't say who's right and who's wrong, I can just give my opinion.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-04-26 04:23pm

can you honestly say it's all worth it, even if you were to end up being the most successful person alive?

If you've lived a full and happy life? Sure.

Why does there have to be some kind of afterlife for your existence to have meant something?

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2005-04-26 04:37pm

Braedley wrote:The exisitance of an afterlife, or the lack thereof, is yet to be proven or disproven. It is one of (if not the only) great mysteries of life.

No. If there was an afterlife, then it begs the question of where it happens to be, and what part of the dead person goes there, since consciousness has been demonstrated to be the sum of what goes on in a person's brain. Damage a small part of their visual cortex, and they stop dreaming. Damage a part of their hippocampus and they lose the ability to lay down new long-term memories. Damage some random parts of their brain, and their personality becomes radically different. The vast bulk of the evidence argues for the complete and total lack of a metaphysical soul.

For some, the faith that they will see family and friends after they die is all they have to keep them going. These people don't have to be creationists, and don't even have to believe in the bible (or any other sacred text), they just have to believe in something. I won't pass judgement on those non-believers, that's not my place, but can you honestly say it's all worth it, even if you were to end up being the most successful person alive?

You're not passing judgement, yet you seem to be asking us if life is worth living if we don't happen to worship your god and believe in your religion or the afterlife. I believe there are a few choice passages from Scripture about hypocrisy.

And yes, if I happened to die contented, after a long and productive career, with my children and grandchildren nearby and my ashes were scattered at the base of a willow tree, I'd say my life would've been worth it. If I happen to get hit by a truck tomorrow and die en-route to the hospital, then it might be a disappointing end, but that's life sometimes.

In any case, I seem to have sent this thread in a totally different direction than what the author intended, and I appologize. My faith is my own, and everyone elses faith (or lack thereof) is their own, and you can't shove it down other's throat, you can just make them question. I can't say who's right and who's wrong, I can just give my opinion.

Fair enough, but this board is full of people who like nothing better than a good philosophical discussion cum debate, and who have mental antennae which are extremely sensitive to anything resembling religious prosetylization.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-04-26 04:39pm

Braedley wrote:The exisitance of an afterlife, or the lack thereof, is yet to be proven or disproven. It is one of (if not the only) great mysteries of life. For some, the faith that they will see family and friends after they die is all they have to keep them going. These people don't have to be creationists, and don't even have to believe in the bible (or any other sacred text), they just have to believe in something. I won't pass judgement on those non-believers, that's not my place, but can you honestly say it's all worth it, even if you were to end up being the most successful person alive?

by that same token, what makes you so sure your afterlife is the one that's actually going to happen? as you said yourself, nobody's proven it to exist. so there's no guarantee that any belief system you subscribe to will be the one you wind up with when you die.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-26 04:53pm

[quote] Jesus christ teaching creationism in science classes has been ruled illegal by the SCOTUS at least once... hell I think it has been twice.
_______[/quuote]

Well, according to one of my Poly Sci books, the sad thing about this country is that the Judiciary has no real power without executive and legislative implementation. As jackson once said "they have made their decision, not let them enforce it." Sadly, the supreme court cant do jack if it's ignored, according to the class. That's probably why people keep telling it to fuck off.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-26 04:54pm

Woa. That quote job realy sucked. Sorry.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2005-04-26 04:57pm

Darth Wong wrote:Do we even need to verify it? The story is far too believable to seriously question, if you're at all familiar with the state of education and creationism in the US.

Certain parts of the US. Fortunately, the schools in my area seem to be pretty reasonable in the science area.

Rocker5150 · Post by **Rocker5150** » 2005-04-26 05:03pm

Here is where I read about this:

"Michigan’s Impending ID Lawsuit"

http://www.pandasthumb.org/

It sounds like a really weak case....I guess that is why they are mearly 'threatening' the lawsuit?

You can go here and let the Board of Education know what you think:

http://www.gulllakecs.org/Board/board.htm

I don't usually waste time sending emails to thesde people but this time I couldn't help it:

Hello. I just wanted to say that if your school district teaches the Grand Canyon was formed in one year, it should be closed down and ridiculed the world over. It is beyond reason to think that would be presented with a straight face. Only the least educated among us would believe such idiocy. Please don't further lower the educational standards of this country by teaching junk.

Their response:

"Thank you for your letter. There is currently a process in place to study this issue and the process is still ongoing, due to the scope of the issue. We are in total support of the process and trust that the final outcome will be what is best for our community."

I hope their 'process' has more sense then what they have been teaching!

-Kevin

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-04-26 05:10pm

Rocker5150 wrote:>snip<

Their response:

"Thank you for your letter. There is currently a process in place to study this issue and the process is still ongoing, due to the scope of the issue. We are in total support of the process and trust that the final outcome will be what is best for our community."

I hope their 'process' has more sense then what they have been teaching!

basically they gave you a standard form letter response. not very surprising. most places like that aren't going to bother answering with specifics.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-04-26 05:15pm

I cannot fathom the necessity of "bridging the gap" between religion and science with claims that evolution was "guided" by the hand of God.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent and wrote the laws of nature, why the hell would he need to do any "guiding"? Those laws should encompass the emergence of life from lifelessness and evolution of life in one sweet package, shouldn't they? And if abiogenesis and evolution are an inevitable consequence of the laws of nature and God wrote those laws, does this in any way diminish the power or wisdom of the divine? Quite the opposite! As opposed to a universe that has to be constantly jury-rigged by it's creator in order to function properly.

Attempting to include God in a process best described by science with half assed miracle working is tantamount to claiming that he wrote those laws in an incompetent manner to begin with. If you truly beleive in an omnipotent and omniscient God, then this is a contradiction.

PS: no, personally I do not beleive in God even in the manner outlined above.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-04-26 05:17pm

The best approach would be to mobilize voters to elect members to the school board who are pro-science. Sending letters, writing to the editor of a newspaper, or even making a presentation to the board would have little effect if it's made up of primarily conservatives.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-04-26 05:46pm

I heard a good analogy for the evolution vs. creation argument while watching special features in my Penn and Teller: Bullshit! DVDs.

Imagine a game of Clue between a scientist and a creationist. They both know that Mr. Body was killed by Colonel Mustard with the knife, but they don't know which room. The scientist will go to each room, test to see if the crime was committed there. If it was, he declares victory. If it wasn't, he moves to the next room and tests that.

The creationist, on the other hand, immediately gives up and says that God did it.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-04-26 05:51pm

Rocker5150 wrote:I just wanted to say that if your school district teaches the Grand Canyon was formed in one year, it should be closed down and ridiculed the world over.

Do they really say one year? Because according to scripture, Noah's flood only lasted a little over one month, after which God magically took away the water. If they say Noah's flood caused the Grand Canyon (which is impossible, considering that dumping a bucket of water on a rock is going to do jack shit), but then say it took a year, they are being inconsistent with the literal interpretation of the Bible that they are calling for.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-26 06:00pm

Well, according to one of my Poly Sci books, the sad thing about this country is that the Judiciary has no real power without executive and legislative implementation. As jackson once said "they have made their decision, not let them enforce it." Sadly, the supreme court cant do jack if it's ignored, according to the class. That's probably why people keep telling it to fuck off.

Well, that is why SCOTUS needs an independant policeforce

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-04-26 06:40pm

What is there to live for if there is no one to great you after you cease to be physically alive?

Boobs.

In all seriousness, people who try to manipulate science through law need to be atomized.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-04-26 06:50pm

Just to point out, not all Christians, or Christian schools, for that matter, are anti-evolution. My high school even teaches evolution and doesn't even conider creationism as scientific fact or theory.

That's the thing, though, these anti-Evolution people don't get that a person can believe in both creationism and evolutionism. Well, kind of. I believe the term is Deist Evolution (though I may be wrong, please correct me if I am), and it is pretty much that God used evolution to create the plants, animals and humans.

It explains the faith we have, and it explains the scientific fact. Sounds the best for science-literate Christians as myself.

I also have PROOF that these people are pretty much going against canon law.

"The doctrine of creation and the theory of biological evolution do not necessarily contradict eachother...He (God) could have used the evolutin of species by natural selection to produce the human body." Kreeft's Catholic Catechism. Pages 48-49. Canon.

That's right, it's in an official Catholic Catechism. Unfortunately, the majority of these anti-evolution people are Southern Baptists, but this does show that for the most part, Christianity and evolution can be accepted together.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-04-26 07:25pm

Theistic evolution.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-04-26 07:27pm

Lord Zentei wrote:I cannot fathom the necessity of "bridging the gap" between religion and science with claims that evolution was "guided" by the hand of God.
If God is omniscient and omnipotent and wrote the laws of nature, why the hell would he need to do any "guiding"? Those laws should encompass the emergence of life from lifelessness and evolution of life in one sweet package, shouldn't they? And if abiogenesis and evolution are an inevitable consequence of the laws of nature and God wrote those laws, does this in any way diminish the power or wisdom of the divine? Quite the opposite! As opposed to a universe that has to be constantly jury-rigged by it's creator in order to function properly.
Attempting to include God in a process best described by science with half assed miracle working is tantamount to claiming that he wrote those laws in an incompetent manner to begin with. If you truly beleive in an omnipotent and omniscient God, then this is a contradiction.

That's my position. Really, I can't understand these nimrods. If the universe is older, bigger, and more complex than the Bible says doesn't that just mean greater glory to God? They should be happy about it. Really, which one seems more impressive to you, a God who created the universe in six days six thousand years ago or a God who created the universe over a period of more than ten billion years and probably still considers it an ongoing project?
Our Earth is just one planet of one star out of a galaxy that contains 200 billion stars and is only one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. The entirety of recorded human history is a blink of an eye compared to the timescales of the universe. If anything this really makes me appreciate the awesome scale and grandeur of God's works. It's a humbling lesson in how great He is. But no, these creationist dumbfucks scream, my God is a little God and I want him to stay that way! They're just small-minded people who don't want to come to grips with the idea of a big universe. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-04-26 08:19pm

Braedley wrote: What is there to live for if there is no one to great you after you cease to be physically alive?

You'll be dead at that time, so having a reason to live will no longer be important in any sense or fashion.

All of you should ask yourself that question.

I live because it seems like the thing to do, personally.

The exisitance of an afterlife, or the lack thereof, is yet to be proven or disproven. It is one of (if not the only) great mysteries of life.

Don't be nonsensical; have you thought the things that must be true yet undetectable in order for an afterlife to exist? Science has examined what happens after someone dies, they go very still and then start to decompose.

Here are the facts: consciousness, memory and personality have all been established to be physical processes. You can permanently damage any of them by interfering with the brain. Therefore, the only logical conclusion with regard to consciousness, memory and personality, the core of any person in this life or a hypothetical next one are entirely dependent on physical integrity of the brain. The brain liquifies after death, from all appearences, death is literally the end for a personality, regardless of how much we don't want that.

There is simply no logical reason to believe that you could be aware of anything after brain death. It's like saying "hey, when you're unconscious, your soul could travel to jupiter, and you'd never know!! Science has neither proven nor disproven that this happens!!"

We don't have to be omniscient in order to point out your argument is one from ignorance.

For some, the faith that they will see family and friends after they die is all they have to keep them going.

You would think that being able to see people after they die would make them want to kill themselves so they can go see them.

I won't pass judgement on those non-believers, that's not my place, but can you honestly say it's all worth it, even if you were to end up being the most successful person alive?

Since "worth" is relative,I can only speak from my point of view. I would say, yes, it would be "worth it" to be successful in what I choose to do.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-26 08:42pm

Braedley wrote:What is there to live for if there is no one to great you after you cease to be physically alive?

Can I feel pleasure? *Takes a mouthful of icecream* Yes, yes I can.

Can I feel happiness? *Takes a look at wife* Yep, got that covered.

Frankly, statements like the quoted are why the religious scare me so very badly. I've heard this 'If X isn't there, why should I bother?' song and dance, and it's from drug addicts. When religion is imitating the symptoms of drugs, it's time to put the Bible down.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-04-27 12:50am

The Catholic church supporting evolution doesn't do us much good when it's the Baptists and Protestants making the stink about it.