1 in 25 people is a sociopath?

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Post by Stark »

JediNeophyte wrote:That's an odd diagnosis. As someone who has Asperger's (an autism-spectrum disorder), I can certainly see the parallels. However, the deficiencies in Asperger's are (as one might expect of autism) in the emotional and social arenas, not moral. I think I would die of guilt if I tried to use my father's credit cards for something without permission.
I agree. I'm (apparently) autistic, and I was an angry, antisocial child. I had a conscience, though, and even in adult life the idea of doing harm to someone for no reason bothers me enough to not do it.

OTOH, I know a guy who'd be a sociopath under this definition: he thinks nothing of lying, cheating, taking everything and giving nothing. By themselves these things just make him an asshole, but he honestly doesn't care. He has no concept of reciprocity at all, or responsibility, or relationships. Everyone is just here to either give him resources or opportunity, or to be ignored.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

You know, you've got to be quite a retarded cunt to think you can even begin to compare an infection with a virus to how you answer what fucking ink blots look like...

The fact is you yourself show what a bunch of sophistic crap is inherent in this with your line in the sand age bullshit. The fact is in medicine an infection with a given virus is an infection with that virus irrespective of the persons age. In psych the same symptoms are considered to be different things based purely on the AGE of the person in question...this is absolute nonsense as different people mature at different rates, a medical definition would take that into account rather than a straight line in the sand (which oddly enough has more to do with legal rather than physical changes) what you have is a LAWYERS definition of the conditions, which is a far cry from something scientific in its nature.

Now that you've shown once again what subjective bullshit there is, are you going to try and add some more petrol to the blaze?
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Post by General Brock »

Psychopathy is an inherant disorder; some people are born that way and find it hard to get a feel for right and wrong. They are very aware of their own need for gratification, though. Problems arise when this need for gratification is unchecked by any kind of self-restraint.

Sociopathy is learned behavor; sufferers learn to turn their conscience 'off' or somehow fail to learn when to apply it properly. Canadian researcher Robert Hare wrote a groundbreaking book on the subject back in 1993.

I think it is very hard to pin down how many sociopaths there are in society, since that behaviour is learned and focused narrowly on specific aspects of social experience. A person might have a reasonably healthy conscience, but be a shameless mysogynist, because that is what he or she was taught to accept as right without thinking. It is much easier to determine the number of true psychopaths, since that behaviour lends itself to consistant systems of diagnoses.

There were studies that tracked the brain activity of psychopaths, and found that they had markedly different responses to things that would cause a more normal person distress. For example, when they were given 'red flag' words, such as 'cancer', they exhibited little or no reaction, whereas a person with a conscience reacted noticeably. Activity took place in different parts of the brain, as if sime people had well-developed conscience modules, and others did not.

A capitalist society tends to foster sociopathic behavior, and discourages empathy. It's easier not to care. People get confused over right and wrong, especially if they accept morally irrational demands of some religions into their moral reasoning. Others seize upon the 'out' of religion to square acts they understand to be immoral, but feel they have no other material choice or have some prejudice to justify. Looking at religion philosophically; what people are willing to believe in a deity is the moral reality they are willing to aspire to, so I would have to say some so-called athiests simply don't want to answer to morality as a matter of faith.

By morality, I would say that as social animals, we have a comfort zone of accepted behaviors that we use to contruct healthy, beneficial relationships with one another, that we understand, intuitively find, emotionally satisfying as well as, though not necessarily, of objective material benefit. Humanitarian ideals, as it were. Nothing's perfect, and so there are people on the fringes; psychopaths. (Both the cruelly black-hearted and the brainless bleeding heart I would call psychopathic, as they place their own gratification above all else). Sociopathic behavior is sometimes necessary as well.

A soldier, for example, needs to be sociopathic in order to function for a greater good on the battlefield, keeping to humanitarian values with his 'side' while readily destroying those defined as the enemy. A true psychopath would be useless as a soldier, as they would turn on their comrades should the need for self-gratification arise, even if they mimick well the behavior of a good soldier.

Less obviously, there are a lot of things that happen in society that would drive us mad if we dwelt upon the difficulty of resolving things out of our control, so we learn to overlook social malaise. As new positive moral possibilities become attainable, like ending slavery, racism, and sexism, people of conscience abandon a sociopathic mindset to foster and embraced the new social realty, whereas before they may have yeilded to social and material pressures to go along with it. Historically, there have been a few who have never accepted injustice, and could not be coerced or fooled into going along with it for any reason, just as there have been those to whom injustice made perfect sense and wholly embraced.

A natural psychopath does well to a degree, if they have the rote intelligence, but tend to be undone by their inability to truly understand moral behavior. The cannot fake it consistantly or adapt to new situations. Sociopaths do OK, till the habit of not thinking catches up to them, as it can be hard to turn off, keep turned off, and confined to one area of endeavor.

Fearmongering is the most common means of fostering sociopathy, whether by promoting a fear of the other, scarcity of resources, or letting people suffer unnecessarily for ingnorance or inexperience; like learning there is no Santa Clause, for example. So, most people will have sociopathic tendencies in some areas of their experience, but are still capable of independent moral reasoning in others.

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Post by Mobiboros »

Keevan_Colton wrote: <snip>
You know, I had a much longer post in response but instead I am going to stop playing your game and being reactionary.

What the fuck are you arguing? In one paragraph you froth about psychology setting lines in the sand and not taking into account the subjective nature of peoples maturity and in the next you decry psychology for being subjective bullshit. So what is your point exactly?

Is psychology a perfect system? No, but like all science and medicine it changes over time to fit the ever increasing amount of data. Picking apart one aspect that has cracks in it doesn't mean the entire field is bullshit. You're doing exactly what fundies do when they attack evolution. You're assuming that one part of the methodology which has some problems means the entire system is wrong.
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Post by General Zod »

Mobiboros wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote: <snip>
You know, I had a much longer post in response but instead I am going to stop playing your game and being reactionary.

What the fuck are you arguing? In one paragraph you froth about psychology setting lines in the sand and not taking into account the subjective nature of peoples maturity and in the next you decry psychology for being subjective bullshit. So what is your point exactly?

Is psychology a perfect system? No, but like all science and medicine it changes over time to fit the ever increasing amount of data. Picking apart one aspect that has cracks in it doesn't mean the entire field is bullshit. You're doing exactly what fundies do when they attack evolution. You're assuming that one part of the methodology which has some problems means the entire system is wrong.
the biggest thing that distinguishes psychology from a genuine science -is- its subjective nature. unlike psychology, scientific tests and analysis can be performed blindly (as in, no foreknowledge of the subject/object being tested in question) and achieve repeatable results. you can't really do the same with psychology.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Mobiboros wrote:No, you can't. Prior to 18 they are diagnosed with "Conduct Disorder". The diagnostic criteria recognizes that people going through adolescence have a very different body chemistry from adults and that many of the symptoms of 'conduct disorder' can onften be adolescent rebelliousness. If the symptoms persist after the age of 18 then they are diagnosed as Antisocial.
This is why that definition is ridiculous in a medical sense. Sure, adolescents might have somewhat different body chemistries, but AFAIK body chemistries don't change overnight or at the same age for everyone. The idea that adolescent is a adolescent at 17 years 364 days and an adult the day after that is a legal distinction, which is inappropriate for a medical evaluation. (In fact, it isn't all that great an idea even for legal stuff, but that's for another topic).

If the idea is to compensate for different body chemistry, wouldn't making an attempt to assess his real mental and physical development, then deciding which category he is in be more appropriate? Rather than a hard line criteria?
What the fuck are you arguing? In one paragraph you froth about psychology setting lines in the sand and not taking into account the subjective nature of peoples maturity and in the next you decry psychology for being subjective bullshit. So what is your point exactly?
The change in average body chemistry is an objective event. Thus he's arguing against the use of a single line subjective criteria for a split. So in truth, it is still against the subjectivism in psychology.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Darth_Zod wrote:the biggest thing that distinguishes psychology from a genuine science -is- its subjective nature. unlike psychology, scientific tests and analysis can be performed blindly (as in, no foreknowledge of the subject/object being tested in question) and achieve repeatable results. you can't really do the same with psychology.
Actually most research studies are done as double blind tests and teh results are testable, repeatable and verifiable.

I think I see the problem now and I didn't see it before. People not understanding there are 2 major fields in psychology: Research and Therapy.
1) Research for data gathering purposes is objective. It's data gathering through repeated testing based on the scientific method and refined through same. The tests are almost always done as double blind tests (the people doing the data gathering often don't know what the hypothesis of the study is as they are often Grad students working for a Professor).
2) Therapy is the subjective application of the research findings. More tests are run to tailor treatment to the individual in question. This is where the Rorschach test comes in, NOT in the research. Subjective tests on the individual are done to chart the best course of treatment. Not every person can receive the same treatment for the same disorder (hence why there are so many types of each type of medicine as well as types of therapy).
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: If the idea is to compensate for different body chemistry, wouldn't making an attempt to assess his real mental and physical development, then deciding which category he is in be more appropriate? Rather than a hard line criteria?
This is where I have to agree that psychology has made some accomodation for legality. And there is a reason. Diagnosis can/do change with age and the treatment IS ased on the persons subjective needs. However, a diagnosis from a certified practicing psychologist/psychiatrist carries a legal weight. It's one of the major factors when a judge decides the grounds for sanity/insanity. So, 2 'diagnosis' were created so that minors don't get stuck with a diagnosis that may not 9and often doesn't) persist into adulthood. It's rather difficult to overturn a diagnosis once made, and even if it happens that doesn't stop someone later on saying "Yes but at one point you WERE considered a sociopath". It's a distatsteful way to create a medical system, but it's an attempt at social responsibility for the actions of a medical professional.
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: The change in average body chemistry is an objective event. Thus he's arguing against the use of a single line subjective criteria for a split. So in truth, it is still against the subjectivism in psychology.
No, it's not an objective event. It really is a subjective event because it's based on a slow change over time in on an individual basis, and the change in body chemistry has different effects based on the individual. One can't make the blanket statement that when a young male, aged 16, has a 4% increase in testosterone they will become more aggressive, and outgoing (note, the age and numbers are just for example, not true values). Because in some people it won't do so. Some may become introverts. Others extroverts. Some may become suicidal. Some may experience a psychotic break. So, in saying that the person should be individually evaluated, he IS saying there should be diagnosis made on their subjective reactions to bodily changes.
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Post by General Zod »

Mobiboros wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:the biggest thing that distinguishes psychology from a genuine science -is- its subjective nature. unlike psychology, scientific tests and analysis can be performed blindly (as in, no foreknowledge of the subject/object being tested in question) and achieve repeatable results. you can't really do the same with psychology.
Actually most research studies are done as double blind tests and teh results are testable, repeatable and verifiable.

I think I see the problem now and I didn't see it before. People not understanding there are 2 major fields in psychology: Research and Therapy.
1) Research for data gathering purposes is objective. It's data gathering through repeated testing based on the scientific method and refined through same. The tests are almost always done as double blind tests (the people doing the data gathering often don't know what the hypothesis of the study is as they are often Grad students working for a Professor).
it's still hardly objective. homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until a few decades ago, as an example. there are very few hard and fast objective measuring tools in psychological examinations, since individuals can differ so wildly.
2) Therapy is the subjective application of the research findings. More tests are run to tailor treatment to the individual in question. This is where the Rorschach test comes in, NOT in the research. Subjective tests on the individual are done to chart the best course of treatment. Not every person can receive the same treatment for the same disorder (hence why there are so many types of each type of medicine as well as types of therapy).
thus why psychology is not a true science. when the same solution can be applied to the same problem for every individual, it becomes more valid. until then, it's just not in the same category.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Darth_Zod wrote: it's still hardly objective. homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until a few decades ago, as an example. there are very few hard and fast objective measuring tools in psychological examinations, since individuals can differ so wildly.
That's because the scale for 'disorder' is based on how functional a person is. Up until a few decades ago homosexuality was a "disorder" because being homosexual severly impacted your functionality in life (both in understanding yourself and others treatment of you). They never tried to 'cure' you of it however. What was done was to try and help the person become more comfortable with their own sexuality.

Now, rather than it being a disorder, they just expanded it into any problems related to sexuality. If being hetero causes you to have life problems and impede your daily life, then counselling may be in order.

Darth_Zod wrote: thus why psychology is not a true science. when the same solution can be applied to the same problem for every individual, it becomes more valid. until then, it's just not in the same category.
Two things.
1) So you're saying that because knowledge of something is incomplete, something isn't a science? I was under the impression that methodology determined if it was a science, not completeness of knowledge.

2) Why do you assume the solution must be the same for everyone? Maybe the solution is, Examine symptoms, examine the individual, form a course of treatments based on individual needs. And not, you have X,Y and Z symptoms, your solution must be X.
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Post by General Zod »

Mobiboros wrote: Two things.
1) So you're saying that because knowledge of something is incomplete, something isn't a science? I was under the impression that methodology determined if it was a science, not completeness of knowledge.
i never said such nonsense, so don't strawman my position. i don't appreciate dishonest debaters. my position had to do with application of a solution for problem X, not in the completeness of knowledge of a science.
2) Why do you assume the solution must be the same for everyone? Maybe the solution is, Examine symptoms, examine the individual, form a course of treatments based on individual needs. And not, you have X,Y and Z symptoms, your solution must be X.
go back and re-read my position. scientific theories and applications are scientific in that the once a problem is diagnosed, the same solution can be applied every single time and be effective every single time, with the exception being the occasional unique situation that throws a monkey wrench. with psychology, it's very individualistic and must be custom tailored and tweaked, even changed completely to an individual's needs. in many cases it might not work period, due to the sheer subjectiveness involved.

suppose two people are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. it's impossible to objectively take the problem and work out a solution based on the knowledge of what the problem is alone that will effectively cure both patients. you have to know the details for both individuals and what caused their psychoses before you can even hope to cure them.
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Post by Morilore »

Darth Zod wrote:
Mobiboros wrote:2) Therapy is the subjective application of the research findings. More tests are run to tailor treatment to the individual in question. This is where the Rorschach test comes in, NOT in the research. Subjective tests on the individual are done to chart the best course of treatment. Not every person can receive the same treatment for the same disorder (hence why there are so many types of each type of medicine as well as types of therapy).
thus why psychology is not a true science. when the same solution can be applied to the same problem for every individual, it becomes more valid. until then, it's just not in the same category.
You aren't listening. He said those are two different fields. One is scientific, the other is less so.
Darth Zod wrote:go back and re-read my position. scientific theories and applications are scientific in that the once a problem is diagnosed, the same solution can be applied every single time and be effective every single time, with the exception being the occasional unique situation that throws a monkey wrench. with psychology, it's very individualistic and must be custom tailored and tweaked, even changed completely to an individual's needs. in many cases it might not work period, due to the sheer subjectiveness involved.

suppose two people are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. it's impossible to objectively take the problem and work out a solution based on the knowledge of what the problem is alone that will effectively cure both patients. you have to know the details for both individuals and what caused their psychoses before you can even hope to cure them.
If that's the nature of the beast, then why is it psychologist's fault.

This exchange bothers me:
Darth Zod wrote:
Mobiboros wrote:I think I see the problem now and I didn't see it before. People not understanding there are 2 major fields in psychology: Research and Therapy.
1) Research for data gathering purposes is objective. It's data gathering through repeated testing based on the scientific method and refined through same. The tests are almost always done as double blind tests (the people doing the data gathering often don't know what the hypothesis of the study is as they are often Grad students working for a Professor).
it's still hardly objective. homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until a few decades ago, as an example. there are very few hard and fast objective measuring tools in psychological examinations, since individuals can differ so wildly.
Because neither participant offers any examples, they simply repeat opposing positions.
"Psychological research is objective."
"No it's not."
"Yes it is!"
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Post by General Zod »

Morilore wrote: Because neither participant offers any examples, they simply repeat opposing positions.
"Psychological research is objective."
"No it's not."
"Yes it is!"
scroll up and read my last post. specifically the part on curing paranoid schizophrenics.
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Post by Morilore »

Darth_Zod wrote:
Morilore wrote: Because neither participant offers any examples, they simply repeat opposing positions.
"Psychological research is objective."
"No it's not."
"Yes it is!"
scroll up and read my last post. specifically the part on curing paranoid schizophrenics.
Darth Zod wrote:suppose two people are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. it's impossible to objectively take the problem and work out a solution based on the knowledge of what the problem is alone that will effectively cure both patients. you have to know the details for both individuals and what caused their psychoses before you can even hope to cure them.
That's therapy, not research. You don't publish therapuetic experience as a scientific hypothesis without research! Am I the only one who got Mobiboros's point about two different fields?
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Post by General Zod »

Morilore wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Morilore wrote: Because neither participant offers any examples, they simply repeat opposing positions.
"Psychological research is objective."
"No it's not."
"Yes it is!"
scroll up and read my last post. specifically the part on curing paranoid schizophrenics.
Darth Zod wrote:suppose two people are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. it's impossible to objectively take the problem and work out a solution based on the knowledge of what the problem is alone that will effectively cure both patients. you have to know the details for both individuals and what caused their psychoses before you can even hope to cure them.
That's therapy, not research. You don't publish therapuetic experience as a scientific hypothesis without research! Am I the only one who got Mobiboros's point about two different fields?
i wasn't questioning the objectiveness of psychological research. i was questioning psychological therapy, specifically.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Darth_Zod wrote:i never said such nonsense, so don't strawman my position. i don't appreciate dishonest debaters. my position had to do with application of a solution for problem X, not in the completeness of knowledge of a science.
Thank you for clarifying that actually. It did seem like you were saying that. If you weren't, my apologies.
Darth_Zod wrote:with psychology, it's very individualistic and must be custom tailored and tweaked, even changed completely to an individual's needs. in many cases it might not work period, due to the sheer subjectiveness involved.
That doesn't mean that the approach to the study isn't scientific. The solution to the problem may be custom tailored, but so far thats the 'best fit' solution to the problem. Research is still being done, hence why I thought you were saying that since there were gaps in knowledge it wasn't a science.

Psychology isn't saying there is definitely NOT X solution to a given problem. They are saying, based on available data this is the best way we have to treat the problems at hand. It might be some day that the knowledge of all possible variables is set down and one could consult a cross-reference chart to come up with a specific solution that will always work. But as it stands now, there is a gap in knowledge of why there is a commonality of symptoms with such a variety of underlying causes. So, they treat the problems subjectively and do research to refine treatment methods.
Darth_Zod wrote: suppose two people are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. it's impossible to objectively take the problem and work out a solution based on the knowledge of what the problem is alone that will effectively cure both patients. you have to know the details for both individuals and what caused their psychoses before you can even hope to cure them.
That's tricky as a huge amount of research has been done into schizophrenia and psychotic disorders in general. If they come in, there is a known chemical problem assocated with schizophrenia. The 'subjective' part of that comes in in that along with that specific chemical problem there are often other co-morbid problems. So in addition to the drugs used for schizophrenia, other drugs may need to be administered because the patient may have other imbalances as well.

There are disorders that they know only drugs will treat. And they know which medicines will treat them. It's the disorders that don't have a specific hormonal/chemical property that the subjective therapies come into play. And even then they often know that they can ameliorate the symptoms with certain meds, but that doesn't necessarily take away the underlying problem (example: You can treat phobias with anti-anxiety meds like Paxil, but that doesn't get rid of the cause of the phobia. If the person goes off the med they will return to being phobic).

So, as i said, gaps in knowledge. You have a science that is researching causes while treating symptoms as best they can. And as research is expanded, treatments are refined.
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