Some Clone War questions

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Post by NecronLord »

Stravo wrote:But the entire Jedi order? And none of the masters try to find a way to undo it. The Darkside is supposed to be equal and opposite. How the hell does one Master overcome hundreds of light side masters?
It isn't. The Dark Side grants greater temporal powers, but eventually betrays those who use it. Yoda was wrong on that, or rather, he was simplifying.

Look at this way. In TPM, a padawan can make himself invisible and go from 0 to 60 kph in half a second. By AotC... Nope. No more of that. Clone Wars? Not AFAIK. RotS? I'd be most surprised.

This could of course be 'the will of the force' but whatever it is, Jedi are a fraction of what they used to be.
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Post by Stravo »

NecronLord wrote:
Stravo wrote:But the entire Jedi order? And none of the masters try to find a way to undo it. The Darkside is supposed to be equal and opposite. How the hell does one Master overcome hundreds of light side masters?
It isn't. The Dark Side grants greater temporal powers, but eventually betrays those who use it. Yoda was wrong on that, or rather, he was simplifying.

Look at this way. In TPM, a padawan can make himself invisible and go from 0 to 6 kph in half a second. By AotC... Nope. No more of that. Clone Wars? Not AFAIK. RotS? I'd be most surprised.

This could of course be 'the will of the force' but whatever it is, Jedi are a fraction of what they used to be.
Will of the Force I can accept because it is the source of power for everyone and it decides to clean house, uses Palpy as its tool and Anakin as the janitor. It creates him specifically for this task (Shmi's virgin conception) It places Anakin at the right place at the right time to do what must be done in each instance: Purge the Jedi, have a son that will redeem him and kill Palpy.

But the thought that Palpatine could on his own shut down an organization numbering in the thousands with some masters that can rival him in strength just as bitched down as everyone else is a bit absurd and starts to approcah the dreaded Wankatine we all knew and hated in Dark Empire.
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Post by NecronLord »

The thing is, a Sentient Force is even worse than Wankatine IMO. It means that Anakin is freed of all responsibility for his actions. The Force made him do it. Palpatine? Not really evil. The Force made him do it. Yoda? Not really good. The Force made him do it. :x
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Post by Stravo »

NecronLord wrote:The thing is, a Sentient Force is even worse than Wankatine IMO. It means that Anakin is freed of all responsibility for his actions. The Force made him do it. Palpatine? Not really evil. The Force made him do it. Yoda? Not really good. The Force made him do it. :x
It depends on how you accept destiny and fate. It was Anakin's destiny that he bring balance to the Force so you can say he was predestined to fall and become Darth Vader but in that process he was free to make his decisions. Are fate and destiny bad if all it's doing is knowing what paths you will freely choose to take ahead of time? If everything you do is freely chosen but the end result is already known is it truly free will? I think yes.

You can also look at the Palpy/Vader team up as the end result of the Jedi's own actions. They had thousands of years of ascendancy and at any time they could have changed their ways. They are like the prophets and seers that are sent signs and visions by God to warn them of an impending doom and they ignored it.

They were getting weaker, their relationship with the Force was changing and it wasn't happening over night either, the Force gave them Anakin's childhood and young adult lifetime to make some changes. By AOTC they KNEW that the Dark Side was the source of their problems - the very first scene with Yoda he complains to Palpy that the Darkside clouds everything. Well now, this is the same Yoda that tells Mace a few scenes later that telling teh Senate that their powers have been weakened is a bad idea. Wisdom seems to be lacking in the entire bunch.

By the end of AOTC they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Sith are behind it all (Hell you could argue that by the end of TPM they were put on notice) and they did nothing.

So who really is to blame? The Force for cleaning house or the Jedi for ignoring every hint and vision sent to them via the Force? Predestiation only works if everyone follows an expected path and everyone did, No one was daring, no one tried to walk a different path and so they got squashed.

I didn't see the Force controlling the Jedi to be morons. They did it to themselves thus the drama played out as expected. It's a bit like watching a child setting himself to do something really stupid. You are the Force "Hey, don't climb on that couch. You're going to fall. I'm warning you." THUMP "I told you didn't I?"
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Post by NecronLord »

I'm sorry, it still smacks of Force Calvinism (God creates sinners, and makes them sin so he can show off his powers to his worshippers) to me. Vader would have been created by the Force no matter what if we accept that it has will. Palpatine would have destroyed the Jedi no matter what, because the Force can just pull the plug on them entirely and make them normal if it wills it. It is much less desireable than Wankatine, IMO.

It's not "Don't climb on that couch" it's "I will make you climb on the couch, then I will push you off it."
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Post by Stravo »

I can understand the revulsion to that kind of set up for a story but some of the great stories of literature are littered with heroes who struggle with and fail against predestination - Oedipus, Achilles and Hector, Jesus, Moses, Paul Mau'dib, Neo, etc.

Once you introduce a prophecy into a storyline the writer is bound to that prophecy. I can't think of a single big story centered around a prophecy where the prophecy was just wrong. The trick always hinges on interpretation. The prophecy is usually never what you expect - ie. Bringing balance to the Force means literrally starting from scratch.

The reason why it didn't bug us too much in OT is because there was no prophecy to speak of in OT.

The prequels point to a far more involved and semi sentient Force.
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Post by NecronLord »

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Post by NecronLord »

What bugs me about the force thing is not that it's a prophecy, but the idea that this mystical energy field is actually aware and is playing them all like puppets.
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Post by Stravo »

NecronLord wrote:What bugs me about the force thing is not that it's a prophecy, but the idea that this mystical energy field is actually aware and is playing them all like puppets.
Palpatine's near prefect prescience in OT didn't bother you as much as the Force's manipulations in the PT? Everything was proceeding as he had foreseen up until the last 10 minutes of ROTJ.
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Post by NecronLord »

He saw nothing special. Vader knew Luke was there before Palpy did. And he most certainly didn't see his own death.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

NecronLord wrote:What bugs me about the force thing is not that it's a prophecy, but the idea that this mystical energy field is actually aware and is playing them all like puppets.
The way I see it is kind of a mix of what you guys have been discussing.

We do have a living Force, but it's a bit limited in what it can do. It can send warnings and alerts, but if the person who gets them doesn't interpret them right then he can still be screwed over (like Anakin).

Palpatine can I think generate part (but not all) of the shroud on the Force, but part of that 'shroud of the darkside' is, at least according to the ROTS novel a direct result of the war, rather than palpy himself.

And again, part of the reason, according to the ROTS novelization, that the Jedi get owned so badly overall is due to the way they seem set in their ways. Yoda comments that they've been training Jedi to fight the previous war against teh Sith, meanwhile the Sith have been changing their methods to counter the stagnating jedi.
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Post by Spartan »

Starvo wrote:

She gave Anakin his scar? Wow. I wondered if they would explain it or just let the audience make their own assumptions on how he received the scar. Without spoilers in terms of plot is Ventress going to appear in the movie or will they leave the scar explanation for fans interested enough to follow the Clone Wars Cartoon?

Also, considering the state of medical technology aren't scars a bit medieval? I mean I don't see how a society that can rapidly grow billions of fully developed war ready clones and create cybernetic replacements of just about every limb and organ couldn't handle a little facial scar.
Anakin gave her a matching facial scar as well, the made the wiring and metal rip out of the walls, wrapped her up tight like a mummy and pitched her cand ass of the top of a Courscant building. :twisted: She also knows that Anakin and Padame are having an affair. The Dialouge is pretty sweet, I can type it up for you, just let me know.
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Post by Spartan »

Necrolord wrote:
No. Any decent jedi will not kill Grievous. Lord Sidious has effectively removed all their powers*. Lightsabers is about all they have now.

*Yes, that's an exxaggeration, but it gets the point across.
The Jedi Grevious collects are mostly mooks! Besides which he doesn't always duel with them, he mostly uses droids to soften them up or kill them out right. He gears the fight to his favor. Dooku even tell him if he doesn't have suprise and intimadation on his side he should flee.

Remove the element of surprise and any "decent" Jedi will pound him. And you know that the Jedi precognition is the only power that the dark side is blinding. For the love of god man. Master Opa Raciss while in battle meditation on Courscant was able to coordinate the moments of entire fleets, in combat through out the outer rim. He also probed for weak points in the CIS defense using the force from thousands of lightyears distant.

Besides which Ventress is a darksider, her powers aren't effected. She is on par with at least Obi-wan in force aptitude. She is more skilled than the Counts other Darkside converts; which includes at least two masters, on of which was the Jedi Temples lightsaber combat instructor. When Ventress treatened Grevious he backed up off her double quick. Do you want a scan, she punked him.
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Post by NecronLord »

Why would the shroud of the Dark Side harm a Dark Sider?

Read the RotS novellisation. Regardless of what he was in the Clone Wars cartoons, by the time of RotS he is a combat monster and can chew the average jedi out with ease. Remember, guys like Obi-Wan and Anakin and the Masters that are focussed on are not average jedi. Average jedi are nowhere near as badass as those guys.
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Post by Murazor »

Spartan wrote:Remove the element of surprise and any "decent" Jedi will pound him. And you know that the Jedi precognition is the only power that the dark side is blinding. For the love of god man. Master Opa Raciss while in battle meditation on Courscant was able to coordinate the moments of entire fleets, in combat through out the outer rim. He also probed for weak points in the CIS defense using the force from thousands of lightyears distant.
WTF!!!! :shock:

Where does this come from?
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Murazor wrote:Where does this come from?
Spartan's ass. If you mean this Master such and such probing CIS from lightyears away, I would suggest the comics, but I'm unsure.
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Post by Stravo »

Spartan wrote:Starvo wrote:

She gave Anakin his scar? Wow. I wondered if they would explain it or just let the audience make their own assumptions on how he received the scar. Without spoilers in terms of plot is Ventress going to appear in the movie or will they leave the scar explanation for fans interested enough to follow the Clone Wars Cartoon?

Also, considering the state of medical technology aren't scars a bit medieval? I mean I don't see how a society that can rapidly grow billions of fully developed war ready clones and create cybernetic replacements of just about every limb and organ couldn't handle a little facial scar.
Anakin gave her a matching facial scar as well, the made the wiring and metal rip out of the walls, wrapped her up tight like a mummy and pitched her cand ass of the top of a Courscant building. :twisted: She also knows that Anakin and Padame are having an affair. The Dialouge is pretty sweet, I can type it up for you, just let me know.
I'll wait for that particular volume of the DVD but thanks. That sounds really cool.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

That didn't happen in Clone Wars, it occured in the comics.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Spartan wrote: The Jedi Grevious collects are mostly mooks!
Really no such thing as a mook when you're talking Jedi.
Besides which he doesn't always duel with them, he mostly uses droids to soften them up or kill them out right.
You're right he doesn't always duel with them. Sometimes he gets bored and just has them shot.
He gears the fight to his favor.
Doesn't anyone with half a brain and the opportunity?
Dooku even tell him if he doesn't have suprise and intimadation on his side he should flee.
Note the rest of what Dooku says. He doesn't say he can't win against a Jedi without fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. He just says he can't be garaunteed a victory without them, and they only have one of him.
Remove the element of surprise and any "decent" Jedi will pound him.
Wrong. Grievous didn't have the element of surprise in the ROTS novelization yet he was capable of speeds that could overwhelm even Obi-Wan's defenses (and Obi-wan is THE master of form 3, the most heavily defensive lightsaber style around). Grievous has been able to down Jedi long after the element of surprise would have ceased being a factor, hell the only ones he's had much of any trouble with at all are either Council members (like Ki-adi Mundi, Mace, and Obi-wan and hell he was owning Ki-adi) with a reputation as great swordsmen, or ones with unusual abilities (like the Ithorian jedi in Clone Wars).
And you know that the Jedi precognition is the only power that the dark side is blinding. For the love of god man.
Their vision is clouded by the darkside but Mace Windu states that it's their ability to use the force that has diminished.
Master Opa Raciss while in battle meditation on Courscant was able to coordinate the moments of entire fleets, in combat through out the outer rim. He also probed for weak points in the CIS defense using the force from thousands of lightyears distant.
And are you suggesting that he is in any way an average Jedi, considering how rare a skill Battle Meditation is supposed to be?
Besides which Ventress is a darksider, her powers aren't effected. She is on par with at least Obi-wan in force aptitude. She is more skilled than the Counts other Darkside converts; which includes at least two masters, on of which was the Jedi Temples lightsaber combat instructor. When Ventress treatened Grevious he backed up off her double quick. Do you want a scan, she punked him.
You want me to get a scan of Grievous choking her into unconciousness, because I can get you one.
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Post by Stravo »

SylasGaunt wrote:That didn't happen in Clone Wars, it occured in the comics.
If that's the case I'd love to see the dialogue since I won't ever see the comics.
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Post by NecronLord »

Oh yes. More for the Dark Side granting greater direct power. Dooku was terrified when Yoda claimed he wanted to turn to the Dark Side, and forsaw Palpatine being swept aside in a bitchslapping reminiscient of SWvST.
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Post by Elheru Aran »

As a small observation, Stravo--

Regarding the scar on Anakin's face: simple triage, and personal honour.

While he obviously got the scar in combat, there were without a doubt other people, clonetroopers and Jedi both, who required more prompt medical attention than a superficial facial scar. Considering its positioning and the heat of a lightsaber blade, I cannot imagine that it could've been very deep or it would've fried his eye; hence, superficial.

Also, there is the factor that likely he keeps it as a 'badge of honor' of some such; he went up against a Dark Sider, and that's the only permanent damage she dealt him. Most Jedi of the time would never go up against a Dark Sider, as those were pretty rare (IIRC).

So, I reckon that answers that question...
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Post by Crown »

SylasGaunt wrote:
Spartan wrote:Besides which Ventress is a darksider, her powers aren't effected. She is on par with at least Obi-wan in force aptitude. She is more skilled than the Counts other Darkside converts; which includes at least two masters, on of which was the Jedi Temples lightsaber combat instructor. When Ventress treatened Grevious he backed up off her double quick. Do you want a scan, she punked him.
You want me to get a scan of Grievous choking her into unconciousness, because I can get you one.
Yes please to the scans ... from both of you. :wink:
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Post by Spartan »

NecronLord wrote:
Spartan's ass. If you mean this Master such and such probing CIS from lightyears away, I would suggest the comics, but I'm unsure.
Dude, seriously you can stop the Grevious wanking any time now.
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Re: Some Clone War questions

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Stravo wrote:Do Mandalorians all have armor similar to Jango's in terms of booby traps, flame throwers, etc or are the special weapons personalized by the wearer? I realize that GL elimiated the Mandalorians from the Clone Wars but in my fic they are a viable (if dying) faction.
They're still in there, just by the EU, including some rather old stories.
Stravo wrote:Is Grevious head of all the CIS militray and not Dooku? Is Dooku more of a political leader? Is it fair then to have Dooku defer to Grevious in terms of military actions and is Grevious in on the whole Sith shuffle between Dooku and Palpy (don't go too much into details just a quick summary of what he does know if anything)
Grevious has been refered to "the leader of the droid army" and the Commanding General. This could mean he is simply the star field commander of the CIS, as opposed to the actual Supreme Commander or War Minister or something. I favor this explanation. Given that many of the warships and troops and vehicles are each commissioned by a different faction of the Seperatists, I imagine that the High Command for the CIS is actually a committee or council representing the various factions in strategic decisions. Grevious was originally a small-scale field commander, and I doubt by context he is directing the entire strategy of the CIS war effort.

Dooku I doubt is the formal head of state either. I also doubt he has much of a formal position; we don't see him settling down to administrate some bureaucracy or portfolio, nor do we see him directing the war effort either tactically or strategically. He is the de facto political head, though. His word is final in decisions for the Confederacy, military or administrative.

The CIS probably has a collegial head of state in the entire Seperatist Council.

Grevious does answer to Darth Sidious. Therefore he understands that they are Sith and whatnot. However, he does not know that Sidious is Palpatine, nor does he know his ultimate plans.
Stravo wrote:Is the Republic's Officer Corps primarily Jedi by that I mean upper level officers like Generals or Admirals or is there a fair mix?
The officer corps must be mostly secular officers due to the sheer scarcity of the Jedi, the scale of the operations they prefer to participate in (small hit-and-run, ambush, and surprise assaults with fast, effective forces), and the manner in which they lead (from the front, which ensures that they cannot really survey their entire command from comfort and security and places them at unreasonable risk). Not to mention there are simply too few of them. They number less than ten thousand, which even if they were all field marshals would probably be too few. No, there are both clone and secular officers, and they are the majority. The Jedi are formally directing the war effort though (Palpatine discusses completely cutting the Jedi out of the loop with secular officers in LoE).
Stravo wrote:What about the CIS officer corps?
Normal people, mostly. Even the largely droid warships in ROTS have organic crews according to ROTS ICS, so they require some organic officers and technicians and whatnot. I am playing with the idea that the CIS managed to steal some of the advanced cloning technology and are using it to turnout warships even quicker, but they lack the knowhow to grow them quickly without the insanity problems, and this is eventually abandoned. I would like something like that to explain why CAPT Pelleaon has memories of fighting against whacked out clones during the Clone Wars, when he fought for the Republic and in the Navy.
Stravo wrote:Who would you say is the strongest CIS faction interms of wealth and troops? The Trade Federation, Banking Guild, Techno Union?
Probably the Trade Federation.
Stravo wrote:Do we have any idea of Jedi casualties in the Clone Wars leading up to ROTS? I've been portaying it as fairly heavy especially among padawan and young knights? Does this jibe?
Yes. They started out at AOTC with maybe 9,000+. They are probably down to more like 5,000 or so by ROTS.
Stravo wrote:Is Dooku's homeworld under Republic Occupation? I thought I read that somehwere.
I think it might be, but I'm unsure.
Stravo wrote:Are the Clones still solely grown on Kamino a year into the Clone War? Can I safely ignore the 1.2 million figure and start throwing around millions of clones as cannon fodder? Are the casualties on the Republic side still being mostly carried by clones?
First of all, the 1.2 million seems to refer to the advance batch or some elite sect of them, depending on the implication of the source or such. In a matter of months, millions were available. By Shatterpoint, there was one clone for each planet, which gives millions to a few billion right there. By the time the new cylinders have been devised and Clone Commanders made, flash-memory equipment is in use and they can decant clones as adults, and possibly in a few weeks (Lando reflects in TTT that it was rumored the clonemasters found a way to circumvent the one year minimum safe growth limit). The number of clones by ROTS is probably in the trillions at least. The facilities on Kamino are doubtless expanded, and if Hero of Cartao is anything to go by, the Republic has been putting its nationalization and expropriation powers to use setting up secret facilities on the side on its own. Not to mention ROTS states that new generations of clones from new templates other than Jango are in development on other worlds other than Kamino.
Stravo wrote:And one final question - I've read some people state that the Jedi give Anakin special treatment because he is the Chosen One. Is that true in the sense that they really think he is. I got the impression in AOTC that they were still fairly skeptical about it. What do they expect of him then if it doesn't give away ROTS plot details.
They expect him to be the key. By post-AOTC, it is pretty certain he is, and I suspect that he wasn't too pushed over the disturbance surrounding his Tusken slaughter because of his "role."
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"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
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