SW shielding (split from SB)

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The Silence and I
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Post by The Silence and I »

SCVN 2812 wrote:The Executor presumably was also under heavy fire from other ships so the Nebulon-B wouldn't have been single handedly trying to down Executor's shields but making its own meager contribution to the entire assault.
No kidding.

But the Executor hadn't even lost the bridge shields yet IIRC and it never lost main shields. According to the prevailing theory as I know it the only way those light guns could cause the bleedthrough they did was if the dissipation rate was lowered (by system damage I guess) by orders of magnitude to the point where a mere spud cannon can overcome the threshold. Further more, in order to cause any bleed through at all the main shield "sink" would need to have been 99.999 (so on) full.

To sum up, the Executor's dissipation rate would have been crippled to effective non-existence and the heat sink was brimming over. A single heavy turbolaser shot would then have ploughed through like a bull through a china shop! Something is definately not adding together in my mind.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The Silence and I wrote: If I understand this shield theory rightly (and that is not a given :wink: ) then what Connor means, to use the sink analogy, is the "drain" can drain away 6.9 of those turbolaser hits in 1/12 th a second and the 0.1 turbolaser shot left will remain in the sink--which probably can hold far, far more than 0.1 of a shot. So unless you maintain firing at least 7 shots every 1/12 th a second long enough for those 0.1's to fill the sink the shields will hold. So no, 7 shots is not enough to breach the shields (if I made an error somewhere Connor feel free to point it out).

*******************************
Pretty much.
Now for my own problem with this shielding theory: ANH and ROTJ. More usefully, the Tantive IV, armed with spit ball guns and running for its life from a vastly more powerful vessel powers and fires its guns at the far larger ship. My problem with this is 'why do it?
Shield protection isn't 100% perfect or uniform. There are sometimes "seams" or "gaps" due to imperfect overlap (Tyrant's Test), or certain spots that might be weaker than others (the whole rason the torpedo spheres exist, in fact.)

Aside from that, there are some sections that will be delibereately LESS well shielded under normal cricumstances, or where shield gaps might be opened for prolonged periods: light guns, sensors and communications arrays, etc. The Tantive IV could be targeting the lighter guns OR targeting sensors in order to make it harder for the Imperials to disable her.

Another possibility is that the corvette's captain is hoping to inflict damage via momentum rather than energy (TL bolts still have momentum after al and momentum has to be conserved.) A slight chance, but still possible.
Then in ROTJ we see the oddly scaled Nebulon B frigate pounding away at the much, much more powerful Executor--with small caliber weapons! And get this, the Executor sustained very minor hull damage (think ruined the paint job kind of deal) from one or two shots. The Executor also returned fire with similar caliber weapons. So what I want to know is how did the Executor sustain any bleedthrough from the secondary guns on a moderately sized warship if it never lost main hull shielding (and indeed several other shots were blocked by the shields so they were still up)? Perhaps more to the point, why is the rebel ship even bothering to attack the friggin super stardestroyer with anything less than its most powerful weaponry--which is still so far outclassed by the shielding it is kind of funny--?
2 possibilities:

1.) the frigate was pounding an area that was deliberately weakened to reinforce another section (a tactic smaller ships can possibly use against a bigger opponent.. the TIEs that chased the Falcon in ANH did this, despite the fact TIE cannons cannot normally penetrate the Falcon's shields.)

2.) the shields in that section were down, however briefly (they can be repaired and restored, or shields can be re-deployed to cover exposed areas at the cost of weakening their overall protection.) and the frigate was pounding the exposed hull. A lack of any observed shield interactions would support this idea.
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Post by McC »

:| This is starting to sound very inconsistant with the way combat in SW is conducted. The reason little ships aren't a threat to big ships is because the big ships can slice apart the little ships before the little ships can inflict sufficient damage, not because the little ships can inflict no damage. This theory is not adding up.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

McC wrote::| This is starting to sound very inconsistant with the way combat in SW is conducted. The reason little ships aren't a threat to big ships is because the big ships can slice apart the little ships before the little ships can inflict sufficient damage, not because the little ships can inflict no damage. This theory is not adding up.
Its the only reasonable way shields can work. The old "shield can hold off fixed energy amount x" doesn't make any sense - where does that energy go? How is it eventually disposed of? Blocked fire has to be dumped.

And what support do you have for:

"The reason little ships aren't a threat to big ships is because the big ships can slice apart the little ships before the little ships can inflict sufficient damage, not because the little ships can inflict no damage," eh?

The Tantive IV was probably attacking structures that are often undershielded or unshielded such as Connor outlined (and that qualifies as only being able to cause insufficient damage, as opposed to no damage, wouldn't you say?), and I'm not convinced that the Nebulon-B actually breached the shields; shield-beam interactions have often given the impression of gaseous explosions where there were none (ref: TPM attack on Naboo cruiser). And if it did, its probably because the Executor shifted its shield arcs against the enemy cruisers.
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Post by McC »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its the only reasonable way shields can work. The old "shield can hold off fixed energy amount x" doesn't make any sense - where does that energy go? How is it eventually disposed of? Blocked fire has to be dumped.
Oh, this I agree with wholeheartedly. I'm talking about the overall performance numbers. The Peak numbers listed in the E2ICS representing a shield's "maximum dissipation capability" don't seem to coincide with on-screen evidence. These numbers representing the combined unified resistant force of every single shield projector facing in one vector might be more consistant (i.e. the actual number is 1/6th of this number, representing each facing: dorsal, ventral, fore, aft, port, starboard), but it still doesn't sit right.
And what support do you have for:

<snip>

The Tantive IV was probably attacking structures that are often undershielded or unshielded such as Connor outlined (and that qualifies as only being able to cause insufficient damage, as opposed to no damage, wouldn't you say?)
It's fairly clear that Tantive IV never breached Devastator's shields. All of the "explosions" we see are pretty clearly shield interactions, and not physical explosions. So I would agree with the statement "in that particule scene, we did not see the small ship breach the larger ship's shields." However, I don't think this is conclusive evidence for the idea that Tantive IV could never hope to overcome Devastator's shields. Prolonged combat always results in ships having their shields "worn down."

For instance, if we take the ridiculously unlikely scenario of Devastator sitting idle for Tanative IV to simply pound away at, Tantive will eventually punch down Devastator's shields. This is consistent with everything we see and have ever read about the functional operation of SW shields. However, if you go along with the idea of the peak dissipation rate representing the shield's general capabilities, Tantive IV would never hope to punch through Devastator's shields, no matter how much time it has.
and I'm not convinced that the Nebulon-B actually breached the shields; shield-beam interactions have often given the impression of gaseous explosions where there were none (ref: TPM attack on Naboo cruiser).
Quite true, regarding the visible interaction. There are occasionally distinctions, though. Typically, a beam-shield interaction will happen well away from the surface of the ship itself. There are numerous examples of this in every single beam-shield interaction we ever see ;) If you're curious, the video in question is available here.
And if it did, its probably because the Executor shifted its shield arcs against the enemy cruisers.
Probably true, but this is consistant with the known method for taking down a ship of this magnitude: over-taxing it. In a stand-up fight, the frigate would never have a chance of taking down Executor.
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Post by McC »

Regarding the Executor/frigate clip:

It's interesting to note that each time the frigate fires on Executor, the bolt hits a pulsating glowing spot near the surface of the ship, which then fades out leaving no distinguishable damage behind. However, each time Executor fires on the frigate, the same pulsating glowing spot is visible, followed by an explosion. This might suggest that each of Executor's shots is punching through the frigate's shields in part, having some of the beam dissipated by the shield, but the rest getting through to inflict damage on the hull. Unless Executor is mounting ludicrously powerful light guns (which is all these tiny brim guns can be), or the frigate's shields are so weak as to be beyond worthy of mention, then the prevailing theory regarding shielding as detailed in this thread is inaccurate.

Sort of.

Here's what I see happening: the frigate's guns are indivudally insufficiently powerful to overcome Executor's shields. Hence why we don't see explosions following the shield impact point. Executor's guns, on the other hand, are delivering more energy than the frigate is capable of dissipating, hence why we see explosions. The idea here is that there is a threshold. A shield can dissipate X watts, but if the bolt striking exceeds X watts, that excess is not stored in a heat sink to be bled off, but rather represents what punches through the shields. What gets stored in the heat sink is what the shield can bleed off. It's similar to the theory detailed so far, but differs in the role of the heat sink (I think).

If the frigate were to fire, say, three guns at the same exact point on Executor simultaneously, they might punch through, as Executor's individual shots punched through the frigate's shields.
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Post by McC »

McC wrote::| This is starting to sound very inconsistant with the way combat in SW is conducted. The reason little ships aren't a threat to big ships is because the big ships can slice apart the little ships before the little ships can inflict sufficient damage, not because the little ships can inflict no damage. This theory is not adding up.
I take this post back. Replace it with my last post.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

That makes no sense; you just replaced the dissipation amount with the heat sink wattage, and for no reason other than you qualitatively feel that the Executor's brim guns should not be punching through the shields of a ship less than a thousandth of its mass without any knowledge of its prior battle damage.

Sounds like another gut-feeling-based pet cause. Do we really need to go through a repeat of the c-propogating beam thing?
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Post by McC »

Sounds like another gut-feeling-based pet cause. Do we really need to go through a repeat of the c-propogating beam thing?
Both of these arose from seeing one thing, hearing another, and saying, "Those don't coincide."
That makes no sense; you just replaced the dissipation amount with the heat sink wattage, and for no reason other than you qualitatively feel that the Executor's brim guns should not be punching through the shields of a ship less than a thousandth of its mass without any knowledge of its prior battle damage.
The current theory double-dips, basically. "The shield will dissipate this, and then if it doesn't, we have another device that will dissipate what it can't." I call bullshit. The shield dissipates X because it takes that energy and converts into neutrinos -- that's how it dissipates, isn't it? That's how it functions, right? The shield is coupled to the heatsink, and the heatsink is what has the job of actually bleeding off the energy. Therefore, saying the shield dissipation rate is X is no different than saying the collective dissipation rate of the heat sinks for that arc is X.

So how, then, does it make any sense to say "Well, the shield will dissipate this because...uh...it will. And then the heat sink, will dissipate the other stuff because...er...it's not connected...but it is. Stop asking me questions!" That's basically saying that the shield dissipation rate is not related to the heat sinks. How, then, is the shield dissipating anything?

And I said that it did make sense for Executor's guns to punch through the frigate's shields, but not with the theory that Connor put forward. That's precisely what my big long-winded explanation of the video clip was about.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

You haven't a fucking idea what a heat sink is, do you?

A heat sink stores heat. The energy comes in through the shield and straight to the radiators; anything not bled off is trapped by the heat sink, which stores extra energy.
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Post by McC »

A note to everyone else: IP and I have spent the last hour going back and forth over this issue on AIM.

It turns out that I misunderstood the assertion being put forward (though I did damn-well too know what a heat sink was :P). My contention had largely to do with the ability of a shield to abosrb incoming energy, rather than its ability to store and re-radiate the energy it absorbs. I was using dissipation to describe this statistic, whereas IP and (presumably) Connor were using it to describe its ability to re-radiate (I think -- feel free to correct me if I'm misrepresenting our respective points in any way).

The Executor video above indicates a situation wherein Executor is firing blasts that are partially absorbed by the shield, but not completely. IP presented an analogy of throwing a positively charged rod at a positively charged plate. The repulsion force will slow down the rod, but it may not necessarily repel it completely -- the KE might be sufficient to overcome the repulsion force and strike the plate anyway. This is, essentially, what we're seeing in the Executor video.

We didn't get a chance to totally finish our discussion, but we left off talking about whether or not bleed-through as exhibited above can occur with a shield system that is fresh and untaxed, since the typical example of bleed-through occurs when a shield system has already been heavily stressed (Tantive IV, the ANH Death Star battle, the ESB asteroid chase, the ROTJ battle and specifically the Executor video above), and thus fits within the idea that the sinks are near capacity and thus the shield system's absorption rate is lower in order to prevent the heat sinks from melting down.
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Post by The Silence and I »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Pretty much.
Yay.
Shield protection isn't 100% perfect or uniform. There are sometimes "seams" or "gaps" due to imperfect overlap (Tyrant's Test), or certain spots that might be weaker than others (the whole rason the torpedo spheres exist, in fact.)
I agree shield protection isn't uniform, it's just the way the theory is presented made it seem to me like they are uniform; and if that is the case then smaller guns serve no meaningful purpose against larger vessels.
Aside from that, there are some sections that will be delibereately LESS well shielded under normal cricumstances, or where shield gaps might be opened for prolonged periods: light guns, sensors and communications arrays, etc. The Tantive IV could be targeting the lighter guns OR targeting sensors in order to make it harder for the Imperials to disable her.
I am willing to entertain the possibility they were gunning for the light guns, the only problem I have with that is EU not withstanding I have never been impressed with their precision targeting skills (especially considering the ISD has far more capable EW). I had thought of the possibility they were attempting to blind the ISD sensors, but their volume of fire wasn't nearly enough to deal with the various sensors at all times and at the range they were fighting at I expect a window would suffice...
Another possibility is that the corvette's captain is hoping to inflict damage via momentum rather than energy (TL bolts still have momentum after al and momentum has to be conserved.) A slight chance, but still possible.
I am going to have to disagree here, those light guns probably have less than 1/1000 th the momentum of a large ship killer turbolaser--it is such a long shot I wouldn't even consider it.
2 possibilities:

1.) the frigate was pounding an area that was deliberately weakened to reinforce another section (a tactic smaller ships can possibly use against a bigger opponent..
Surely the frigate has larger weaponry? If the shielding there was reduced to 1/10,000 th its normal strength (or something like that) to the point where it has difficulty dealing with light guns why not send a few medium cannons into the fray? The frigate did not appear damaged, so I expect its larger guns were charging after having just fired a salvo; but why continue firing with the tiny guns if the shielding facing it can handle the larger guns too, unless shield geometry is really unstable or the shields act more like trek shields, taking damage even from weaker guns?
the TIEs that chased the Falcon in ANH did this, despite the fact TIE cannons cannot normally penetrate the Falcon's shields.)
Come again? I was under the rather strong impression the Falcon only fended the TIEs off in ESB because it avoided most of the fire, not because its rear shields could hold out forever. What is the reasoning behind sending TIEs after a ship they cannot damage without surounding and delivering multiple attack vectors in a setting where said ship is not going to allow such an attack? If they want to send ships after them why not a small gunboat class?

2.) the shields in that section were down, however briefly (they can be repaired and restored, or shields can be re-deployed to cover exposed areas at the cost of weakening their overall protection.) and the frigate was pounding the exposed hull. A lack of any observed shield interactions would support this idea.
Turns out the shields were up the whole time; I had not watched that scene closely since before the DVDs and the fighter that crashes into the Executor looks a heck of lot like a turbolaser blast. The Executor's light guns cause damage to the frigate but the Executor fends off the frigate's guns without apparent damage.
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Post by Alan Bolte »

The very first frame of that sequence shows a bolt hitting the Executor that may have penetrated the shields and done superficial damage, it's hard to tell. It might just have been a more scatter-like hit as opposed to the circular glow hits of the other bolts. As to the frigate's weapons, does it have anything particularly heavy? There aren't any visible turrets, and that isn't a very large ship. The Executor, on the other hand, could house a 10 teraton turbolaser behind a gunport, and we'd never know. Of course, the two ships could very well have been shooting each other with equivelent weapons and we wouldn't know that either; a weapon that could cut through the frigate's shields to vaporize some armor would just produce some shield glow on the Executor, assuming the shield is at a reasonable strength.

Say, are we absolutely sure that the power listing refers specifically to heat dissipation by the heatsink and associated systems? I missed where that was confirmed.

What really bugs me about all this is that it leaves open the question of what a shot of a given energy would do when it hits the shields under normal conditions. You could build a shield system with a Star Destroyer-scale heatsink and radiator, but if you attach it to the shield generator of an X-Wing it's not going to be much help against megaton-scale point-defense guns. It's like it hardly tells us anything. We could assume that a given ship's shield is just sufficient to make the heatsink useful, but I wouldn't mind something more definite. Of course, we also have no way of knowing the heatsink capacity. We don't seem to have enough variables to really say anything about the shield of any ship!

OT: Is the frigate really scaled wrong by much? I have trouble figuring out exactly where everything is in that scene, my sense of perspective isn't very good. The frigate should be roughly the height of the brim trench, right? Or were you referring to the compositing error with the corvette?
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Post by McC »

Alan Bolte wrote:The very first frame of that sequence shows a bolt hitting the Executor that may have penetrated the shields and done superficial damage, it's hard to tell. It might just have been a more scatter-like hit as opposed to the circular glow hits of the other bolts. As to the frigate's weapons, does it have anything particularly heavy? There aren't any visible turrets, and that isn't a very large ship. The Executor, on the other hand, could house a 10 teraton turbolaser behind a gunport, and we'd never know. Of course, the two ships could very well have been shooting each other with equivelent weapons and we wouldn't know that either; a weapon that could cut through the frigate's shields to vaporize some armor would just produce some shield glow on the Executor, assuming the shield is at a reasonable strength.
Typically, beam length tends to indicate turbolaser power. This is fairly consistant throughout the ROTJ battle, in that there are some very long beams that appear to be the ISD HTLs firing. I don't know if this actual canon and, consequently, a reliable and consistent measure, but it does seem to be a trend. If it holds, then the bolt lengths appear to be approximately the same size, suggesting equal weapon strength.
Say, are we absolutely sure that the power listing refers specifically to heat dissipation by the heatsink and associated systems? I missed where that was confirmed.
I might've mis-stated, but this is the understanding that I came to when talking to IP.
What really bugs me about all this is that it leaves open the question of what a shot of a given energy would do when it hits the shields under normal conditions. You could build a shield system with a Star Destroyer-scale heatsink and radiator, but if you attach it to the shield generator of an X-Wing it's not going to be much help against megaton-scale point-defense guns. It's like it hardly tells us anything. We could assume that a given ship's shield is just sufficient to make the heatsink useful, but I wouldn't mind something more definite. Of course, we also have no way of knowing the heatsink capacity. We don't seem to have enough variables to really say anything about the shield of any ship!
Precisely my own misgiving with it.
OT: Is the frigate really scaled wrong by much? I have trouble figuring out exactly where everything is in that scene, my sense of perspective isn't very good. The frigate should be roughly the height of the brim trench, right? Or were you referring to the compositing error with the corvette?
It's actually the corvette that's mis-composited. The corvette should be behind the frigate, and further back. Everything else in this scene is, I think, correct.
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Post by Alan Bolte »

Me no write well. Knew that, I did.

Still can't believe my SAT verbal score was that high...
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Post by McC »

As of the beginning of this post, I'm not sure where I'll end up with it. It's late, and I'm not entirely sure how coherent my thoughts are, but I wanted to put something down because things have been rumbling about in my head.

To understand a shield system, we need to know three components. 1) The ability of the shield to absorb incoming fire (presumably in Watts). 2) The capacity of the heat sink to store energy (presumably in Joules). 3) The ability of the heat sink to covert the energy into neutrinos for dissipation (presumably in Watts). However, we are not given these three figures, we are given one figure. This figure is called "Peak Shield Capacity."

What does this term mean? Is it a direct term to describe #3, as IP seems to think? Or is it a description of #1, as was my original stance? What if it's neither? What if it's both? What if it's a descriptor of the entire system as a whole? The term strikes me as important. It's not "Peak Dissipation Rate" or "Peak Absorption Rate" or anything like that. It's "Peak Shield Capacity." Peak, presumably meaning maximum, and capacity being its ability receive, hold, and absorb.

So, Peak Shield Capacity describes the best performance the shield is capable of. My thinking then is this: the PSC represents the entire system's function. At any one time, it is capable of accepting into the system this amount and dissipating this amount. Say you fire a 7x10^22 Joule blast into the Acclamator shield system. The Acclamator can deal with this in one second. Over that period of time, the heat sink will achieve its maximum storage capacity while it bleeds off the blast over a period of one second, at the end of which it will be totally dormant again. Firing 14x10^22 Joules worth into the system will exceed its ability to handle the heat in a sufficient amount of time and will cause bleed-through.

I'm not sure if that makes any coherent sense, but how does it sound?

I'm going to go to bed now ;)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The Silence and I wrote: I agree shield protection isn't uniform, it's just the way the theory is presented made it seem to me like they are uniform; and if that is the case then smaller guns serve no meaningful purpose against larger vessels.
As I told apocalypse in my earlier posts, understanding every aspect shield theory can get pretty complicated (there are aspects I still have very little to no grasp on.) - for a general 'vs" debate enviroment its generally simpler to leave out alot of the technicalities on both sides (why do you think momentum, force, or pressure rarely comes up in vs debates? Usually its simpler to think in terms of energy and sometimes power.)

Small guns have alot of disadvantages - they generally have shorter range and less punch, but they do have some advantages though - they have lower recoil (and therefore need correspondingly less bracing/reinforcement than larger guns, which means they can turn faster and more freely.)Usually smaller guns also have a higher rate of fire.

With composite beam "combination" technology (like the superlaser's building lots of smaller beams up into a big beam, or the LAAT's dish guns) you can make several smaller guns almost comparable to a big one, in theory. The only other requirement is that you have a greater number of smaller guns to compensate for the "per shot" difference. :)

Again, I'm probably oversimplifying it some, but it works out on general principle.
I am willing to entertain the possibility they were gunning for the light guns, the only problem I have with that is EU not withstanding I have never been impressed with their precision targeting skills (especially considering the ISD has far more capable EW). I had thought of the possibility they were attempting to blind the ISD sensors, but their volume of fire wasn't nearly enough to deal with the various sensors at all times and at the range they were fighting at I expect a window would suffice...
A sustained low-powered beam would probably not penetrate enough to "blind" sensors.. and any shot powerful enough to penetrate ought simply destroy it anyhow.

Another possibility is that the T4 was caught in a tractor beam which hampered its ability to accelerate or manuver, and they were trying to shoot out the tractor beam emitter. (If caught, they might be able to move some, but full accel might very well burn out the engines.. like with the Falcon when captured by the Death Star, IIRC.)

Accuracy-wise, there's several complications. For one thing, targeting weak points isnt going to be easy - you can't detect them directly (shields absorb energy remember.) and the dynamic nature of the shields means that making alterations to the overlapping can make some of the weak points or gaps disappear.

And if there IS a tractor beam in play, it might very well interfere with the ability of the turret's mobility, making precision targeting more difficult (analgous to the fact that "distortion generators" on the Death Star or gravity well projectors can interfere with the manuvering of fighters.)
I am going to have to disagree here, those light guns probably have less than 1/1000 th the momentum of a large ship killer turbolaser--it is such a long shot I wouldn't even consider it.
Think back to Mike's shield analysis of the TESB incident here The estimate of the asteroid's momentum corresponds to a 350 GT TL. Based on estimated mass and acceleration figures (about 100,000 tons for the T4 disregarding fuel - which I consider conservative, and a 3000 gee acceleration.) the ship's power generation has to be in the e20-e21 watt range.. well into the hundreds of gigatons range.

A single shot on its own *might* not do much, but sustained bombardment over minutes (maybe even an hour or so) might have results.
Surely the frigate has larger weaponry? If the shielding there was reduced to 1/10,000 th its normal strength (or something like that) to the point where it has difficulty dealing with light guns why not send a few medium cannons into the fray? The frigate did not appear damaged, so I expect its larger guns were charging after having just fired a salvo; but why continue firing with the tiny guns if the shielding facing it can handle the larger guns too, unless shield geometry is really unstable or the shields act more like trek shields, taking damage even from weaker guns?
The frigate presumably HAS bigger guns, and presumably they were recharging (we never see any broadsides onscreen, I remind you.) As for firing the tiny guns, why not? We don't know the strength of the shields in this section - they may not stop the frigate's larger guns at all. The lighter guns would presumably be used to take out sensors or guns that might threaten it directly that close up (think to how Thrawn destrtoyed the guns on an entire side of an Assault Frigate in HTTE to use it as a shield.) Its even possible those guns werent as "light" as they seem - they might be projectile weapons for all we know.

On the other hand, it might be one of the medical ships (yeah I know, dumb sending a medical ship into combat, but these are the Rebels we're talking about.. at this point they're obviously desperate.)

The Frigate isn't doign any major damage (yet), nor is it apparently being supported by larger ships (maybe a corvette) - I preusme that the Emperor's standing orders about not attacking applied so long as the ship in question was not in danger (think back to the Imperial communications ship which destroyed a rebel cruiser but was disabled in doing so.)

The rebels were by canon outgunned and out-numbered. Aside from a few one-shot tricks (ramship/fire ship tactics) they could not have survived had the Imperials not held back some.


Come again? I was under the rather strong impression the Falcon only fended the TIEs off in ESB because it avoided most of the fire, not because its rear shields could hold out forever.
The Falcon can withstand at LEAST multi-megaton impacts, both by their ability to withstand Imperial light weapons fire (TESB) and by comparison to similarily-sized vessels (like Padme's personal yacht in the AOTC:ICS)
What is the reasoning behind sending TIEs after a ship they cannot damage without surounding and delivering multiple attack vectors in a setting where said ship is not going to allow such an attack? If they want to send ships after them why not a small gunboat class?
Those were sentry ships, and they couldnt just let them pass without attempting tos top them. And as I pointed out, its not impossible for them to damage the Falcon - they have to get "around" the angled shields, though, to do so. (in other words, they have to trick it to use its shields in a direction they aren't attacking from, and hit it before the shields can be redeployed.)

Turns out the shields were up the whole time; I had not watched that scene closely since before the DVDs and the fighter that crashes into the Executor looks a heck of lot like a turbolaser blast. The Executor's light guns cause damage to the frigate but the Executor fends off the frigate's guns without apparent damage.
Got screenshots? When I looked at the scene I never recalled seeing any "splintering" or "bolt-interactions" - sometimes its easy to confuse bolt/shield interactions with explosions. And I know at least some of the shots "hit" without any flashes or whatnot.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

McC wrote: To understand a shield system, we need to know three components. 1) The ability of the shield to absorb incoming fire (presumably in Watts). 2) The capacity of the heat sink to store energy (presumably in Joules). 3) The ability of the heat sink to covert the energy into neutrinos for dissipation (presumably in Watts). However, we are not given these three figures, we are given one figure. This figure is called "Peak Shield Capacity."
Absorption of incoming fire depends on more than just how fast the energy is pumped in. You also have to account for surface area/volume (of the hull and shields), since the bolt is being "scattered" or spread across a larger surface area to reduce its effects. Thus, intensity matters as much as power. (and before you start asking questions or nitpicking, this is where things start getting difficult, because we lack sufficient information beyond the point of general concepts.)

EDIT: Moreover, since it is whatever "field" that a deflector shield generates that transfers the energy to the heat sink, the surface area/volume of the shield vs the energy/intensity/coherency of the bolt will still mater. Spreading the energy (IE "splintering the bolt into smaller bolts" allows for the energy to be spread over a larger area, which improves the ability of the shield to handle the energy of the bolt.

By contrast, the heat sinks, since they emit energy in the form of neutrinos, does not need to worry about intensity as much (there's almost no possibility of large quatnties of energy passing through the radiators melting them.) Thus, you only have to worry about how FAST you can get rid of the energy.
What does this term mean? Is it a direct term to describe #3, as IP seems to think? Or is it a description of #1, as was my original stance? What if it's neither? What if it's both? What if it's a descriptor of the entire system as a whole? The term strikes me as important. It's not "Peak Dissipation Rate" or "Peak Absorption Rate" or anything like that. It's "Peak Shield Capacity." Peak, presumably meaning maximum, and capacity being its ability receive, hold, and absorb.
Cut the semantical theatrics please. The name tells us nothing, and is good for little except instigating long-winded nitpicking over definitions.

IF anything hints at the "definition" of capacity, its how the numerical figure is presented, as I outlined above.
So, Peak Shield Capacity describes the best performance the shield is capable of. My thinking then is this: the PSC represents the entire system's function. At any one time, it is capable of accepting into the system this amount and dissipating this amount. Say you fire a 7x10^22 Joule blast into the Acclamator shield system. The Acclamator can deal with this in one second. Over that period of time, the heat sink will achieve its maximum storage capacity while it bleeds off the blast over a period of one second, at the end of which it will be totally dormant again. Firing 14x10^22 Joules worth into the system will exceed its ability to handle the heat in a sufficient amount of time and will cause bleed-through.

I'm not sure if that makes any coherent sense, but how does it sound?

I'm going to go to bed now ;)
According to Curtis on SWTC under this page dealing with the SPHA-T, Curtis labels the ICS figure as "The maximum continuous heat disposal by the shield system of a core ship" - in other words, the instantaneous dissipation capacity (much as how Mike explained the theory initially with the sink and drain analogy.)
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Connor MacLeod wrote:Got screenshots? When I looked at the scene I never recalled seeing any "splintering" or "bolt-interactions" - sometimes its easy to confuse bolt/shield interactions with explosions. And I know at least some of the shots "hit" without any flashes or whatnot.
Download here. The entire video clip (posted above) slowed down to 1 frame per second with annotations detailing what happens. I also added sound effects for additional cues as to what happens in each frame. There are definite distinct bolt-shield interactions and explosions in this clip.

Apologies for the incessant bolding, but those are significant parts and I didn't want people to not understand what was being presented, not hear sound, or be scared by the sudden advent of sound ;)
Absorption of incoming fire depends on more than just how fast the energy is pumped in. You also have to account for surface area/volume (of the hull and shields), since the bolt is being "scattered" or spread across a larger surface area to reduce its effects. Thus, intensity matters as much as power. (and before you start asking questions or nitpicking, this is where things start getting difficult, because we lack sufficient information beyond the point of general concepts.)

EDIT: Moreover, since it is whatever "field" that a deflector shield generates that transfers the energy to the heat sink, the surface area/volume of the shield vs the energy/intensity/coherency of the bolt will still mater. Spreading the energy (IE "splintering the bolt into smaller bolts" allows for the energy to be spread over a larger area, which improves the ability of the shield to handle the energy of the bolt.

By contrast, the heat sinks, since they emit energy in the form of neutrinos, does not need to worry about intensity as much (there's almost no possibility of large quatnties of energy passing through the radiators melting them.) Thus, you only have to worry about how FAST you can get rid of the energy.
So the short version of what you're saying is that too much happens and it's too complex for us to really be able to say anything meaningful? I don't buy it.

I offer a counter-proposal. The shield has a limited capacity for absorption based on intensity over time (i.e. 1000 W/m^2 for instance, though obviously the figure will be amazingly higher than this pitiful number). That's why the shield functions to break bolts apart before it absorbs them. This way, each "piece" of the shield is not overtaxed with how much it has to absorb. Once the bolt is broken down, though, there's still X Joules to deal with from the beam, no matter how dispersed it is. This X Joules is what the shield must absorb, and therefore the absorptive rate of the shield system as a whole is still important, no matter how much fracturing of the initial bolt occurs so that the shield's "field" can adequately channel the energy.

This is basically what you said in your edit, I think, but put a bit more directly. Your contention seems to be, though, the the dispersal effects of the shield are significant beyond simply shattering the bolt into "pieces" it can deal with, which I don't see the necessity for.
Cut the semantical theatrics please. The name tells us nothing, and is good for little except instigating long-winded nitpicking over definitions.

IF anything hints at the "definition" of capacity, its how the numerical figure is presented, as I outlined above.
A) I was tired, as stated, so my mind was wandering.

B) Isn't that exactly what we're doing? Long-winded nitpicking over definitions? You say "Peak Shield Capacity" means X, I say it means Y, and here we are.
According to Curtis on SWTC under this page dealing with the SPHA-T, Curtis labels the ICS figure as "The maximum continuous heat disposal by the shield system of a core ship" - in other words, the instantaneous dissipation capacity (much as how Mike explained the theory initially with the sink and drain analogy.)
Context is your friend. Note how he also talks about how five beams, each putting out an effective 1.2x10^23W, was sufficient to overcome and breach the shield, not that it was simply enough to start "filling up the heat sinks." This lends even more weight to the idea that the PSC figure describes the maximum power the shield can handle, and anything exceeding this will bleed through.

Unless you want to argue that other vessels had taken significant shots at those Core Ships first in order to fill up their heat sinks such that bleedthrough could start happening.
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McC wrote:My thinking then is this: the PSC represents the entire system's function. At any one time, it is capable of accepting into the system this amount and dissipating this amount. Say you fire a 7x10^22 Joule blast into the Acclamator shield system. The Acclamator can deal with this in one second. Over that period of time, the heat sink will achieve its maximum storage capacity while it bleeds off the blast over a period of one second, at the end of which it will be totally dormant again. Firing 14x10^22 Joules worth into the system will exceed its ability to handle the heat in a sufficient amount of time and will cause bleed-through.

I'm not sure if that makes any coherent sense, but how does it sound?
That contradicts these two quotes from the AotC:ICS:

Pg. 16: Coolant pump circulates a superfluid with enormous heat capacity to moderate the shield matrix during critical power spikes that cannot be radiated away quickly

Pg. 16: Shield heat-sink and radiator matrix converts unusable energy surges into heat for disposal

The first quote is more important in that it refers to "power spikes that cannot be radiated away quickly." That can't be referring to strikes that can be radiated away in a second or so (as per your hypothesis), so it must be referring to what happens when the instantanious dissipation rate is exceeded.
Later...
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McC wrote: Download here. The entire video clip (posted above) slowed down to 1 frame per second with annotations detailing what happens. I also added sound effects for additional cues as to what happens in each frame. There are definite distinct bolt-shield interactions and explosions in this clip.

Apologies for the incessant bolding, but those are significant parts and I didn't want people to not understand what was being presented, not hear sound, or be scared by the sudden advent of sound ;)
Thanks, and yes, I cna see what seem to be shield interactions (or at least I'm willing to concede they might be. One could aruge they are still explosions, but its not strictly neccesary for the flashes to be one or the other.)
So the short version of what you're saying is that too much happens and it's too complex for us to really be able to say anything meaningful? I don't buy it.
No, the short version is that any sort of comprehensive analysis of shield theory tends to be far more complicated than typical vs debates would allow.
I offer a counter-proposal. The shield has a limited capacity for absorption based on intensity over time (i.e. 1000 W/m^2 for instance, though obviously the figure will be amazingly higher than this pitiful number). That's why the shield functions to break bolts apart before it absorbs them. This way, each "piece" of the shield is not overtaxed with how much it has to absorb. Once the bolt is broken down, though, there's still X Joules to deal with from the beam, no matter how dispersed it is. This X Joules is what the shield must absorb, and therefore the absorptive rate of the shield system as a whole is still important, no matter how much fracturing of the initial bolt occurs so that the shield's "field" can adequately channel the energy.

This is basically what you said in your edit, I think, but put a bit more directly. Your contention seems to be, though, the the dispersal effects of the shield are significant beyond simply shattering the bolt into "pieces" it can deal with, which I don't see the necessity for.
Of course they are significant beyond mere splintering. The shield transfers the energy of the bolt to the heat sink - thus if there is more "shield" there to do the absorbing, then more effective at absorption it becomes.
B) Isn't that exactly what we're doing? Long-winded nitpicking over definitions? You say "Peak Shield Capacity" means X, I say it means Y, and here we are.
No, its not, since you apparently deny the "heat sink capacity," even though such heat sinks are explicitly labeled in the ICSs (Including the ROTS ICS as well.)

Context is your friend. Note how he also talks about how five beams, each putting out an effective 1.2x10^23W, was sufficient to overcome and breach the shield, not that it was simply enough to start "filling up the heat sinks." This lends even more weight to the idea that the PSC figure describes the maximum power the shield can handle, and anything exceeding this will bleed through.
Yes, context is your friend. Did you miss these statements from the SPHA-T page?
SWTC wrote: The maximum reactor output of an Accalamator-class military transport is 2×1023 W. Thus the maximum continously sustainable firepower of an Acclamator is less than a third of what the core ship can shrug off. In a one-on-one test of guns against shields, the core ship would not suffer any unsustainable accumulation in its shields' internal heat-sinks
and:
SWTC wrote: Approximately five SPHA-T guns were able to penetrate the shields and cut into a single launching core ship. If the core ships were fully shielded (as a sane and cowardly Neimoidian captain must command when evacuating an invasion zone), then we infer a lower limit on the output of an individual SPHA-T. By this reckoning, each gun yielded an instantaneous maximum firepower of around ~1.2×1023 W.
Unless you want to argue that other vessels had taken significant shots at those Core Ships first in order to fill up their heat sinks such that bleedthrough could start happening.
That is in fact what Curtis is arguing. His firepower figure is a lower limit because its only taking in the dissipation capacity, not heat sink capacity.
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Connor MacLeod wrote:No, the short version is that any sort of comprehensive analysis of shield theory tends to be far more complicated than typical vs debates would allow.
If you want to write a technical dissertation, sure. This is like saying analysing the vaporization of a chunk of iron by a laser is more complicated than calculating the input energy necessary to melt the iron. Of course it's more complicated, but a simple model version is easy to construct that closely approximates the end result.
Of course they are significant beyond mere splintering. The shield transfers the energy of the bolt to the heat sink - thus if there is more "shield" there to do the absorbing, then more effective at absorption it becomes.
...this is more or less what I said the purpose of splintering was. What are you saying differently? It's not clear.
No, its not, since you apparently deny the "heat sink capacity," even though such heat sinks are explicitly labeled in the ICSs (Including the ROTS ICS as well.)
Is this a strawman or a bald-faced lie? I've never denied that there are heat sinks involved in the shield process, nor have I denied that they have a capacity and a rate at which they convert their heat into neutrinos. This is an accepted part of the shield process.

What I am saying is that the limiting factor is the absorptive rate of the shield, not the ability of the heat sink to get rid of accumulated heat.

Yes, context is your friend. Did you miss these statements from the SPHA-T page?
SWTC wrote: The maximum reactor output of an Accalamator-class military transport is 2×1023 W. Thus the maximum continously sustainable firepower of an Acclamator is less than a third of what the core ship can shrug off. In a one-on-one test of guns against shields, the core ship would not suffer any unsustainable accumulation in its shields' internal heat-sinks
and:
SWTC wrote: Approximately five SPHA-T guns were able to penetrate the shields and cut into a single launching core ship. If the core ships were fully shielded (as a sane and cowardly Neimoidian captain must command when evacuating an invasion zone), then we infer a lower limit on the output of an individual SPHA-T. By this reckoning, each gun yielded an instantaneous maximum firepower of around ~1.2×1023 W.
Which do anything to disagree with my position...how? One-on-one, a SPHA-T wouldn't puncture the shields of a TF core ship. One need only look at the 1.2x10^23W power rating of the gun to confirm that. The AOTC example supports the idea that exceeding the absorptive rate of the shield (which I argue is exactly what "Peak Shield Capacity" is) leads to shield bleedthrough and structural damage.
That is in fact what Curtis is arguing. His firepower figure is a lower limit because its only taking in the dissipation capacity, not heat sink capacity.
See above.
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As a follow-up to this, before it gets too old, IP and I spent a little more time talking about it on AIM this evening. One of what I believed to be my strongest argument points was the notion that the SWTC's description of the events more or less matched what I was describing the shield system as doing (the bit about the SPHA-Ts).

Well, we looked at the sequence and determined that the core ships don't even appear to have their shields up! Indeed, some of the SPHA-Ts seem to be shooting inside the ship through the landing gear doors. With this rather important piece of evidence rendered moot by this discovery, I no longer have the canon visual evidence I thought I did, and nothing but Saxton's description of events (which is now rendered conjectural, since it doesn't reflect what we actually see happen) to rely on for corroboration.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

McC wrote:As a follow-up to this, before it gets too old, IP and I spent a little more time talking about it on AIM this evening. One of what I believed to be my strongest argument points was the notion that the SWTC's description of the events more or less matched what I was describing the shield system as doing (the bit about the SPHA-Ts).
You mean that "Peak shield capacity represents absorption rate and probably heat sink capacity as well" nonsense? The SWTC descriptions in no way substantiate your claims (except through misinterpretation and/or nitpicking.) The ICS shield ratings According to Curtis himself refer to the heat disposal rate of the heat sinks, not the absorption rate into the sinks or the actual capacity ("We know how quickly the sink can be emptied, but not how deep the sink is" to borrow an analogy.)

In fact, I'm more than willing to bet you any amount of money that if you flat-out asked Curtis he would say your interpretation is wrong. Care to ask him?
Well, we looked at the sequence and determined that the core ships don't even appear to have their shields up! Indeed, some of the SPHA-Ts seem to be shooting inside the ship through the landing gear doors. With this rather important piece of evidence rendered moot by this discovery, I no longer have the canon visual evidence I thought I did, and nothing but Saxton's description of events (which is now rendered conjectural, since it doesn't reflect what we actually see happen) to rely on for corroboration.
The ITW:AOTC book makes it quite evident that the Trade Federation AND Republic warships both had shields active which prevented any sort of precision fire bombardment from shooting the ships down. (Why bother deploying the SPHA-Ts to shoot them down if the starship's own weapons could do it just as well? Precision certainly isn't a problem - the Lusankya was able to bombard and destroy an enemy-filled area surrounding a NR base without harming the NR forces who are close enough to WATCH the bombardment.

So no, its not dismissed, its not conjectural. Its fricking canon (and the "the shields weren't up" argument has been tried before, BTW. Try doing a search of the archives on the SPHA-T before acting as if you somehow "discovered" some new revelation.)
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Just had to get the last word in, huh? Couldn't let it go? :roll:
Connor MacLeod wrote:You mean that "Peak shield capacity represents absorption rate and probably heat sink capacity as well" nonsense? The SWTC descriptions in no way substantiate your claims (except through misinterpretation and/or nitpicking.) The ICS shield ratings According to Curtis himself refer to the heat disposal rate of the heat sinks, not the absorption rate into the sinks or the actual capacity ("We know how quickly the sink can be emptied, but not how deep the sink is" to borrow an analogy.)
No, I mean that "Peak Shield Capacity" represents the rate at which shields can deal with incoming fire. Anything that exceeds this exceeds the shield ability to "deal with" it and punches through the shield to the hull. Call it absorptive rate, if you want.
In fact, I'm more than willing to bet you any amount of money that if you flat-out asked Curtis he would say your interpretation is wrong. Care to ask him?
Love to. I'd very much like to hear how he reconciles the various things we see on screen with the stuff in the ICS if your interpretation of it is correct.
The ITW:AOTC book makes it quite evident that the Trade Federation AND Republic warships both had shields active which prevented any sort of precision fire bombardment from shooting the ships down. (Why bother deploying the SPHA-Ts to shoot them down if the starship's own weapons could do it just as well? Precision certainly isn't a problem - the Lusankya was able to bombard and destroy an enemy-filled area surrounding a NR base without harming the NR forces who are close enough to WATCH the bombardment.
So you instead propose the the SPHA-T guns were so powerful that not only did they punch through the TF shields (which we don't ever see any visible interaction to indicate their presence), but they even went so far as to punch through instantly? Because if you actually watch the clip, you see damage occur on the hull the instant those beams hit it. Either those are the most ludicrously powerful beam weapons (short of the DS) ever created, or the shields weren't up. You pick. And then, go ahead and justify the ability to move that much energy around on that small a platform without a starship energy reactor and fire multiple shots.
So no, its not dismissed, its not conjectural. Its fricking canon (and the "the shields weren't up" argument has been tried before, BTW. Try doing a search of the archives on the SPHA-T before acting as if you somehow "discovered" some new revelation.)
You mean this thread? Where they decide that Saxton is probably wrong, the shields probably played no part, and the properties of the hull are the major topic of discussion?
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