Seismic Charges and Versus debates

[Darth Wong]

Only an imbecile would fail to recognize that the asteroids which broke apart revealed that they were not hollow by breaking up into solid pieces rather than breaking open like an eggshell.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, one could suggest at least some of the larger asteroids were in fact hollow. Jango Fett through one after all, and it was indeed mostly hollow.

Ummm...Walper that would mean ONE of them is hollow. Not some unless you have more PROOF unless you want to tack on the stupidity that because the Falcon flew into a large asteriod...must mean some(of some completely unknown and arbitrary quantity) the large one's in Hoth are also hollow.

Y'know, it just occured to me to consciously make the connection, but with the talk of hollow asteriod in AOTC and the reference to TESB, why couldn't the large hollow asteriod be a symptom of a family of giant space slugs... Or strip mining?

Probably one of those two.

I just wouldn't jump to thought that they would be mostly hollow because the two we seeing being entered are. Hell, we saw in the explosions most weren't.

[Robert Walper]

Keeping in mind I simply said one could argue some of the asteroids were hollow like the one Jango Fett flew through. I didn't say we have any grounds to suggest the ones destroyed were so. I find it hard to believe Jango just happens to fly threw the one in a million asteroids that is hollow...surely surrounding ones share similar attributes.

[Ghost Rider]

Keeping in mind I simply said one could argue some of the asteroids were hollow like the one Jango Fett flew through. I didn't say we have any grounds to suggest the ones destroyed were so. I find it hard to believe Jango just happens to fly threw the one in a million asteroids that is hollow...surely surrounding ones share similar attributes.

Yes, because SENSORS don't tell you shit

[Robert Walper]

Keeping in mind I simply said one could argue some of the asteroids were hollow like the one Jango Fett flew through. I didn't say we have any grounds to suggest the ones destroyed were so. I find it hard to believe Jango just happens to fly threw the one in a million asteroids that is hollow...surely surrounding ones share similar attributes.

Yes, because SENSORS don't tell you shit

Good point. I retract my arguement accordingly. *smacks forehead*

[Jaepheth]

Ok, so all objects have a resonance frequency, the seismic charges or the launching ship just calculate the mean frequency of its surroundings and generate a large pulse with that frequency. This will do nothing against a shielded craft, so Jango was trying to use the asteroids, not the charge itself, to kill Obi Wan. Therefore, a seismic charge, on its own, is not a weapon suitable for use against a shielded spacecraft, but instead is only a viable 'weapon' in an asteroid field.

That sound trekie enough? Guess I could throw some sub-space quantum flux mumbo jumbo in there...

[Adam Reynolds]

One argument I remember seeing on Darkstars website was that the bombs were only 2-D and therefore useless.

[Civil War Man]

One argument I remember seeing on Darkstars website was that the bombs were only 2-D and therefore useless.

Yeah, because they obviously didn't do anything worthwhile in the movie. Destruction of kilometer-wide asteroids? Pfft!

[Darth Wong]

Ok, so all objects have a resonance frequency, the seismic charges or the launching ship just calculate the mean frequency of its surroundings and generate a large pulse with that frequency. This will do nothing against a shielded craft, so Jango was trying to use the asteroids, not the charge itself, to kill Obi Wan. Therefore, a seismic charge, on its own, is not a weapon suitable for use against a shielded spacecraft, but instead is only a viable 'weapon' in an asteroid field.

That sound trekie enough? Guess I could throw some sub-space quantum flux mumbo jumbo in there...

I could actually believe that a Trekkie might think all objects have a critical resonance frequency. Most of them don't entirely understand what resonance really is, after all. They just know that Star Trek uses lots of it, whatever it is.

[Robert Walper]

One argument I remember seeing on Darkstars website was that the bombs were only 2-D and therefore useless.

Most certainly not useless, although with a limited area of affect obviously. I believe Mike pointed out the name of these devices and their observed properties suggests a ground attack weapon Jango just used for that particular conflict in space.

[Mange]

Over at strek-v-swars, the Trekkie side has posted the following on the seismic charges:

+http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=204

[Meest]

I love how it's called a deconstruction without any numbers just a single screenshot and "there is no good scaling but... I think those asteroids are only hundred meters" okeeee.

[Lord Poe]

This is funny. I was working on this very subject today for my webpage, and just saw this thread! Using the AOTC:ICS numbers, and the "Pegasus" asteroid, ONE seismic charge is worth 2,300 photon torpedoes.

But that webpage won't be up until this weekend...

[18-Till-I-Die]

I imagine the charges would eb relatively useless against a ship, since they generate a flat plane blast instead of a shaped charge or omnidirectional blast.

However i think that the general idea, and teh name supports this, is that the charges were deisgned to be dropped on a planet, where i'd assume they dig in to the ground somehow and then the effect would be quite devastating. It'd probably be able to level a fair sized city in a second or two, like an enormous earthquake.

I could see it being very useful for bombers, air support...like old strategic bombers dropping nukes, fly a few TIE bombers along dropping seismic charges and you could render a vast area utterly destroyed in a few minuets.

[Stark]

So in your book, a weapon that can shatter multi-km asteroids is useless?

[Meest]

In fact, many of the chunks seen involve significant fractions of the asteroids in question, which appear to be less than a km across. We see no melting or vaporization, and no visible heating of the rock.

I guess he was watching the desaturated AOTC dvd. There is some heat effects. (first 2 screens unaltered, last one editted to show underlying effects)

Suffice it to say that, in the case of the asteroids struck by the seismic charge, it is not likely to be the case that they were as coherent as Earth rocks (likely with substantial internal fractures, such as Eros, which - IIRC - ILM modeled 1-2 of its prequel rocks after) nor is it the case that the asteroids seen are thoroughly fragmented, i.e., into chunks 10m or smaller.

Fragmentation seems to be fairly uneven and very localized - about what we'd expect from asteroids that have taken enough hits to be heavily fractured - and we see neither phase changes nor significant temperature growth nor even substantial transmitted KE. Not that much energy transmitted to the asteroids, in other words.

So where are these alleged gigatons of energy, anyway? They can't be transmitted out along the plane with the shockwave, or it would continue to be dangerous for many more km. They can't be radiated outwards from the shockwave as electromagnetic energy, because at that density, we'd see melting and/or vaporization of the asteroids.

Here's a quick gif showing the same charge from the screenshot above after several seconds and multiple asteroids it blasted through, KE (left side roids) and thorough fragmentation.


And for good measure, shot of the hollow/fractured typical asteroid

[Ghost Rider]

I imagine the charges would eb relatively useless against a ship, since they generate a flat plane blast instead of a shaped charge or omnidirectional blast.

However i think that the general idea, and teh name supports this, is that the charges were deisgned to be dropped on a planet, where i'd assume they dig in to the ground somehow and then the effect would be quite devastating. It'd probably be able to level a fair sized city in a second or two, like an enormous earthquake.

I could see it being very useful for bombers, air support...like old strategic bombers dropping nukes, fly a few TIE bombers along dropping seismic charges and you could render a vast area utterly destroyed in a few minuets.

?

Ummm...you do understand that is completely illogical stance since it DOESN'T generate such.

It propagates a from a single point of goes outward...thus an OMNIDIRECTIONAL blast...or did you miss how it exploded?

[Darth Servo]

I honestly can't remember if the seismic charges as depicted in AOTC has ever been tackled by Trekkies in an attempt to dispute the massive firepower obviously inherent in those devices carried by a private patrol craft. They may bitch and moan about the AOTC ICS but how did they tackle the seismic charges which in my opinion is the most telling example of firepower that we've seen on screen?

No this is not intended to spark any kind of bashing I'm just curious as to how it was handled during the vs. debates that raged post AOTC.

The responses I've seen so far:

1) We can't be sure how big the asteroids were or how big the plane of destruction was (aka appeal to ignorance)

2) (from the idiots at Strek-v-swars) the bomb merely "sliced" the big ones in two (out-right lie)

3) Everyone's favorite Rabid Stupid Asshole's "explanation": the planar ring provides a link with the Death Star so its probably a chain reaction weapon.

[Darth Servo]

I imagine the charges would eb relatively useless against a ship, since they generate a flat plane blast instead of a shaped charge or omnidirectional blast.

We're not arguing that they would be tactically useful in a dogfight. They are simply an example of POWER LEVEL to put the lie to Trektards claiming that the best a mile long starship can only fragment ~40 meter asteroids.

[Robert Walper]

Quick question: Any links to analysis confirming via scaling the asteroids in question are in fact multi kilometer in size? I have the DVD, and honestly, they don't look kilometers across to me...more like several hundred meters at most.

[Darth Servo]

Quick question: Any links to analysis confirming via scaling the asteroids in question are in fact multi kilometer in size? I have the DVD, and honestly, they don't look kilometers across to me...more like several hundred meters at most.

The blast radius is clearly multi-km and it blew up everything in that radius.

[Robert Walper]

Quick question: Any links to analysis confirming via scaling the asteroids in question are in fact multi kilometer in size? I have the DVD, and honestly, they don't look kilometers across to me...more like several hundred meters at most.

The blast radius is clearly multi-km and it blew up everything in that radius.

Which proves nothing since no asteroid I saw was anywhere near the diameter of the blast wave itself. Again, is there any scaled screencaps to prove these asteroids were multi kilometer in size? Frankly, the only object of reliable size near the asteroids I saw was Obi Won's craft...and as I said before, the asteroids didn't look much bigger than several hundred meters in size.

[Darth Wong]

Quick question: Any links to analysis confirming via scaling the asteroids in question are in fact multi kilometer in size? I have the DVD, and honestly, they don't look kilometers across to me...more like several hundred meters at most.

The blast radius is clearly multi-km and it blew up everything in that radius.

Which proves nothing since no asteroid I saw was anywhere near the diameter of the blast wave itself. Again, is there any scaled screencaps to prove these asteroids were multi kilometer in size? Frankly, the only object of reliable size near the asteroids I saw was Obi Won's craft...and as I said before, the asteroids didn't look much bigger than several hundred meters in size.

The rate of propagation of the wave and the length of time it continued to propagate are the most obvious cues.

[Robert Walper]

The rate of propagation of the wave and the length of time it continued to propagate are the most obvious cues.

OK, makes sense. So this has been calculated?

[Meest]

The rate of propagation of the wave and the length of time it continued to propagate are the most obvious cues.

OK, makes sense. So this has been calculated?

The scene cuts several times, but it's implied that that same charge (2nd one) continues to blast and toss asteroids all over for seconds worth of OWK's flight speed. It's origin point itself is beyond the first big asteroid blown. If we take what's shown on screen it's about 8 seconds worth, if you add in Jango's screen it brings it to 10-11sec. It takes OWK 2secs+/- a few frames to clear the biggest asteroid, which is only half in the frame making it 500m+ from quick ghetto scaling, so a few hundred meter per second speed at least. That's all rough numbers but gives 2km blast radius minimum. Add in the distance he covers between cuts and it's reasonable for multi-km blast with no sign of the wave having any trouble with roids in it's path in the later stages.