Some Clone War questions

[SCVN 2812]

A bit of an idea about the seeming disparity between the number of droids and clones. A passage in the ICS indicates that if left unchecked the CIS can turn planets into 'fortress worlds.' Lets say that you sent out a few thousand ships carrying modules similar to the prefab garrison of an ISD except instead of a military base it is a small scale refinery that when coupled with say a typical CIS ships' complement of droids, several hundred thousand, with Providence Destroyers capable of carrying well over a million battle droids, you swap out about half of the battledroids with mining and construction droids and drop it off on a poorly defended inhabited planet.

Suppress the planet's defenses and then drop off the refinery, in modular pieces if need be to be assembled on planet and start the process of erecting droid foundries and other military equipment. Even with billions or trillions of clones and their war machines, it takes time to invade and destroy a CIS army.

The outer rim sieges could very well refer to actual sieges with Republic fleets blockading planets occupied by droid armies too massive to engage in a ground campaign against without substantial reinforcements. The CIS' droid production rates could have forced the Republic to blockade those planets they cannot afford to invade immediately while preventing the Republic from using strategic bombing by using the civilian populace as meat shields. The war would be slow going and bloody due to the Republic having to mass much larger armies than they would if it weren't for the CIS' tendency to set up war factories on every planet they take. This leaves a large number of Clone Troopers tied up in wiping out CIS forces on a handul of planets while the Republic navy tries to prevent the CIS from making use of the massive armies being built on blockaded planets while at the same time trying to stop them from invading more outer rim planets and turning them into more fortress worlds to further stretch the Republic fleet.

Effectively the Republic denies the CIS their droid production advantage while the CIS compensates for its smaller industrial base by causing the Republic to stretch its fleet and army thinly. The quintillions of droids would therefore be largely trapped on planets guarded by Republic armadas leaving the CIS' free planets. Their destruction is on the Republic's to do list but has to wait until the Republic can free up the forces to do so.

[Illuminatus Primus]

On Grevious' uberness: he is made out of highly durable materials and doubtless has many redundant systems and probably even inertial compensators which means the Force can throw him about without trouble. His internal circuits and mechanisms are probably complex and highly durable, and require excessive amounts of concentration and effort to damage directly with the Force, by which time he's on top of you with four lightsabres. In fact the sheer quantity of lightsabers is probably designed so he can so overwhelm the Jedi as to kill concentration and take noninstinctual Force-use out of the game entirely.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh yes. More for the Dark Side granting greater direct power. Dooku was terrified when Yoda claimed he wanted to turn to the Dark Side, and forsaw Palpatine being swept aside in a bitchslapping reminiscient of SWvST.

What is this from?

[Spartan]

Really no such thing as a mook when you're talking Jedi.

I beg to differ, as I can remember several.

You're right he doesn't always duel with them. Sometimes he gets bored and just has them shot.

Doesn't change what I said.

Doesn't anyone with half a brain and the opportunity?

Conceded

Note the rest of what Dooku says. He doesn't say he can't win against a Jedi without fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. He just says he can't be garaunteed a victory without them, and they only have one of him.

Which doesn't contradict what I said.

Wrong. Grievous didn't have the element of surprise in the ROTS novelization yet he was capable of speeds that could overwhelm even Obi-Wan's defenses (and Obi-wan is THE master of form 3, the most heavily defensive lightsaber style around). Grievous has been able to down Jedi long after the element of surprise would have ceased being a factor, hell the only ones he's had much of any trouble with at all are either Council members (like Ki-adi Mundi, Mace, and Obi-wan and hell he was owning Ki-adi) with a reputation as great swordsmen, or ones with unusual abilities (like the Ithorian jedi in Clone Wars).

I suppose that depends on your definition of "decent". Conceded.

Their vision is clouded by the darkside but Mace Windu states that it's their ability to use the force that has diminished.

But in what way? Clearly their powers aren't that reduced from what we see them do. Mind you Yoda said "the Darkside clouds everything" right before Mace makes that comment.

And are you suggesting that he is in any way an average Jedi, considering how rare a skill Battle Meditation is supposed to be?

If you were paying attention, it was an example of a 'uber' force power being used despite their supposed darkside inflicted weakness. The range was thousands of light years.

You want me to get a scan of Grievous choking her into unconciousness, because I can get you one.

I wasn't aware of that. When and where did this occur? If true then I concede.

[Spartan]

On Grevious' uberness: he is made out of highly durable materials and doubtless has many redundant systems and probably even inertial compensators which means the Force can throw him about without trouble. His internal circuits and mechanisms are probably complex and highly durable, and require excessive amounts of concentration and effort to damage directly with the Force, by which time he's on top of you with four lightsabres. In fact the sheer quantity of lightsabers is probably designed so he can so overwhelm the Jedi as to kill concentration and take noninstinctual Force-use out of the game entirely.

That I could except. Fine, Grevious is 'Uber ' .

[Vympel]

But in what way? Clearly their powers aren't that reduced from what we see them do. Mind you Yoda said "the Darkside clouds everything" right before Mace makes that comment.

As made clear in the RotS novelization, it is the full gamut of Jedi abilities affected by the "shroud", not just their ability to perceive the future.

[Spartan]

Vympel wrote:

As made clear in the RotS novelization, it is the full gamut of Jedi abilities affected by the "shroud", not just their ability to perceive the future.

Conceded then, but we still don't know by how much. I mean, we still see various Jedi performing 'Uber' feats. Since we never get to see what the really powerful Jedi can do with this limitation. It's pretty scary to imagine what they could do say twenty years before TPM.

[SylasGaunt]

I beg to differ, as I can remember several.

Not by the time Grievous is running around. Most all the non-combat oriented Jedi are sort of, you know, dead.

Doesn't change what I said.

He tends to go after them in personal combat more often than not. At least the majority of sources I remember have him going after them with lightsabers blazing.

Which doesn't contradict what I said.

But in what way? Clearly their powers aren't that reduced from what we see them do. Mind you Yoda said "the Darkside clouds everything" right before Mace makes that comment.

It seems to have diminished them in some ways, on the other hand we also see plenty of Jedi that still uber it out.

If you were paying attention, it was an example of a 'uber' force power being used despite their supposed darkside inflicted weakness. The range was thousands of light years.

We already know about this. Palpy did it all through his reign according to the Thrawn books. That still doesn't contradict the Jedi's powers being weakened though because it could have been much easier beforehand, or been able to work across even longer distances. We need a before/after comparison.

I wasn't aware of that. When and where did this occur? If true then I concede.

Clone Wars Adventures, vol. 3. Dooku is seeing just how good Grievous really is so he sets Ventress and Durge searching the station they're on for an intruder. Grievous ends up beating both of them.

[Spartan]

SylasGaunt wrote:

Not by the time Grievous is running around. Most all the non-combat oriented Jedi are sort of, you know, dead.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Jedi in general. Did you mean that most of them dies on Genosis? I'd assume their are still some weak ones hold up at the Temple.

[NecronLord]

What is this from?

Dark Rendevous. The bitchslapping comment was hyperbole. The exact quote, is, I believe, 'Even Sidious would be swept away.' Annoyingly, I can't localte the book to check.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What do you mean, Yoda said he was going to turn to the Dark Side?

[SylasGaunt]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Jedi in general. Did you mean that most of them dies on Genosis? I'd assume their are still some weak ones hold up at the Temple.

Geonosis and the war fighting since then. For instance most of users of the 'Diplomat's form' died on Geonosis, and I imagine they keep the Jedi who can't fight all that well close to home (except for cases like Sha'agi who got dragged along by his master even though he was the Jedi equivalent of a computer nerd).

[NecronLord]

What do you mean, Yoda said he was going to turn to the Dark Side?

When he's talking to Dooku, Yoda says that if Dooku can prove the Dark Side is superior, and can give him something he wants that he can't already get, he'll join the Sith. Dooku asks what he wants, and Yoda demands that Dooku create a rose. Dooku fails, and Yoda creates an illusion of himself as a Sith Lord, complete with black robes and IIRC, yellow eyes. I'll type it up if I can find it.

[NecronLord]

Found it. It was under the bed. I shall type up shortly.

[NecronLord]

Dark Rendevous, P. 297-306.

Yoda looked down at the floor, making little patterns in the air with his stick. "Something real, tell me about. Show me another way we can end this war. Tell me something Dooku knows that Yoda does not." The Count looked at Yoda, baffled. "Come across the galaxy I have for one thing, Dooku."
"Yes, Master?" Dooku said, hating the words as soon as they were out of his mouth. He had only one master now, and a jealous one.
"Obvious is it not, Dooku?" And then Yoda was doing it to him again - the world turned inside out as Yoda said, "Turn me, Dooku. I beg you. Show me the greatness of the dark side."

[...]

"You want me to tell you about the power of the dark side?" Dooku said wonderingly.
Yoda had the dragon's eyes again: half closed, gleaming under heavy lids. "Strong, strong the dark side is in this place," he murmered. "Touch it you can, like a serpent's belly sliding under your hand. Taste it, like blood in the air... Tell me of the dark side, apprentice."
"I'm not your apprentice anymore," Dooku said.
Yoda snuffled: laughed: stirred the air with his crooked stick. "You think Yoda stops teching, just because his student does not want to hear? Yoda a teacher is. Yoda teaches like drunkards drink. Like killers kill," he said softly. "But now you be the teacher, Dooku. Tell me: is it hard to find the power of the dark side?"
"No. The lore of the Sith - that is another matter, but to touch the power of the dark side, to begin to know it, all you have to do is ... allow yourself. Relax. We carry the dark side within ourselves," Dooku said. "Surely you must know that by now. Surely even Yoda has felt it. Half of life, dark to balance light, waits inside you like an orpha. Waiting to be welcomed home.
"We all desire, Yoda. We all fear. We are all beset. A jedi learns to supress these things: to ignore these things: to pretend they don't exist, or if they do, they apply to someone else, not us. Not the pure. Not the protectors." Dooku found himself beginning to pace. "To know the dark side is merely to stop lying. Stop pretending you don't want what you want. Stop pretending you don't fear what you fear. Half the day is night, Master Yoda. To see truly, you have to learn to see in the dark."
"Mmmmmmmm." Yoda hummed and grunted, eyes nearly closed now. "The dark side, power would give me."

"Power over all. When you understand your own evils and the evils of others, it makes them pitifully easy to manipulate. It's another kind of push-feather," the Count said. "The dark side will sow you the stiff places in a being. His dreads and his needs. The Dark side gives you the keys to him."
"Hmph. Very find that is, but Yoda has power," the ancient Master said, examining his hairy tos. "I live in a palace bigger than this one, if I count the Temple as a palace. Dooku is a master of armies: but Yoda is a master of armies, too. So far, we are even."
"Is there such a thing as too much power?" Dooku mused. "For instance," he continued carefully, "there was a day when your power was clearly greater than mine. Today, however, I have waxed as you have waned. You stand in my citadel. I have at my command servants and droids and great powers of my own that I think would overwhelm even you. It is possible that at a single word, I could have you killed. And without you, how long would those dear to you last? I could have them, one by one: Mace and Iron Hand, Obi-Wan and precious young Skywalker too. Surely you would feel safer if this were not so."
Yoda cocked his head to one side. "Like Anakin, you do not?"
"Perhaps he reminds me too much of myself at the same age. Arrogant. Impulsive. Proud. I realise humility is high among the Enforced Virtue, the ones no one aquires by choice; but that being said, if Fate is looking for an instrument to humble young Skywalker, I confess myself willing to volunteer."
Yoda reached behind his back with his stick, trying to scratch a spot just between his shoulder blades. "Power over beings, need I not. What else can it give me, this dark side of your?
"What game are you playing here, Master Yoda?
Yoda smiled at the use of the term Master - curse him - and shrugged. "No game. Wasteful, this war is. Even you agree. Sent you the candle, did I: you know there can be coming home for you. Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there."
"Very kind," Dooku said dryly. "Decent of you to give me an arm to lean on."
"Always catch you will I, when you fall," Yoda said. "I swore it."
Dooku flinched as if stung.
"But another way to solve the war there is. If you will not join with me, perhaps join with you I should. Tell me more," Yoda said testily. "If power over beings need I not, what else can your dark side do for me?"
"What do you want," Dooku snapped. "Tell me what you want and I will show you how the dark side can help you achieve it. Do you want frinds? The dark side can compel them for you. Lovers? The dark side understands passion in a way you never have. Do you want riches - endless life - deep wisdom...?"
"I want..." Yoda held up the flower in his hand and took another sniff. "I want a rose."
"Be serious," Dooku snapped impatiently.
"Serious am I!" Yoda cried. He bounced to his feet. Standing on the desktop he was almost as tall as Dooku. He held the flower imperiously toward his former pupil. "Another rose, make for me!"
"The dark side springs from the heart," Dooku said. "It isn't a handbook for cheap conjouror's tricks."
"But like this trick do I!" Yoda said. "The trick that brings the flower from the ground. The trick that sets the sun on fire."
"The force is not magic. I can't create a flower out of thin air. Nobody can - not you, not the Lord of the Sith."
Yoda blinked. "My force does. Binds every living thing, the force I understand."
"Master, these are games of words. The Force is as it has always been. the dark side is not a different energy. To use it is only to open yourself to new ways to command that energy, that have to do with the hearts of beings. Want something else. Want power."
"Power have I."
"Want wealth."
"Wealth I need not."
"Want to be safe," Dooku said in frustration. "Want to be free from fear!"
"I will never be safe," Yoda said. He turned away from Dooku, a shapeless bundle under a battered, acid-eaten cloak. "The universe is large and very dark: that is the truth. What I love, taken from me will be, late or soon: and no power is there, dark or light, that can save me. Murdered, Jai Maruk was when the looking after him I had; and Maks Leem; and all the many, more Jeid I have lost. My family they were."
"So be angy about that!" Dooku said. "Hate! Rage! Despair! Allow yourself, just once, to stop playing the game of Jedi Knight, and admit what you have always known: you are alone, and you are great, and when the world strikes you it is better to strike back than turn your cheek. Feel, Yoda! I can feel the darkness rising within you. Here, in this place, be honest for once and feel the truth about yourself."
At this moment, Yoda turned, and Dooku gasped. Whether it was the play of the holomonitors, beaming their views of bleak space and distant battles, or some other trick of the light, Yoda's face was deeply hidden in the shadows, and for one terrible instant, he looked exactly like Darth Sidious. Or rather, it was Yoda as he might have been, or could yet become: a Yoda gone rotten, a Yoda whose awesome powers had been utterly unleashed by his connection to the dark side. In a flash Dooku saw how foolish he had been, trying to urge the old Master to the dark side. If Yoda every turned that way, Sidious himself would be annihilated. The universe had yet to comprehend the kind of evil that a Jedi Knight of nearly nine hundred years could wield.
From the shadows, Yoda spoke. "Disappointment like I not, apprentice," he snarled, in a wicked, wicked voice. "Give me my rose!"

[Illuminatus Primus]

Is there more?

[NecronLord]

Updated. There's more of course. The bit where Yoda convinces Dooku to turn from the Sith is priceless, followed immediately by Obi-Wan and Anakin bursting in and ruining it.