A Worthy Opponent for "Evolutionists"?

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 04:44pm

Dr. Walt Brown, whom you may or may not have heard of, offers this challenge. Basically, he wants a strictly scientific discussion on the origins of everything (yes, not just biological evolution, but pretty much origin of life, the universe, and everything).

Given that I have seen Mike express his desire to debate people other than the random morons who show up in his inbox, I thought this may be a good alternative. Unfortunately, there may be time restrictions for Mike as this guy seems to want to publish this debate in book form.

On the plus side, there are 4 months between each 100K word exchange (graph or photos = 200 words). Also, there is chance for financial gain, if the book he wants to make of this is published.

Anyone already know about this challenge and/or anyone who has applied for it?

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-11-18 04:52pm

If he doesn't ignore the opponent's points and bring up the same arguments, I'm sure it will be easy for Mike to beat him in debate.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 05:06pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:If he doesn't ignore the opponent's points and bring up the same arguments, I'm sure it will be easy for Mike to beat him in debate.

Yeah, my guess would be that Mike could pretty much copy/paste the stuff from his already voluminous site.

At least this guy appears to be somewhat rational though, as the web version of his book recently removed the "shrinking sun" argument in light of some scientific research.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-18 05:08pm

Why doesn't this guy pick up a textbook or take a class and learn something? Seriously, I'm starting to get sick of these people who insist on debating things that they obviously know nothing about. Maybe if he took a class or read a textbook, he'd learn why there's no reason to really debate about evolution or the origins of the universe from the creationist position.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 05:34pm

Durandal wrote:Why doesn't this guy pick up a textbook or take a class and learn something? Seriously, I'm starting to get sick of these people who insist on debating things that they obviously know nothing about. Maybe if he took a class or read a textbook, he'd learn why there's no reason to really debate about evolution or the origins of the universe from the creationist position.

From the About the Author section at http://www.creationscience.com/:

For most of his life Walt Brown was an evolutionist, but after many years of study, he became convinced of the scientific validity of creation and a global flood.

No elaboration on the studies which led him to abandon the scientific explanation for the beginnings of life and how it got to its present state.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-18 05:37pm

Then he's just a fucking moron.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 05:44pm

Durandal wrote:Then he's just a fucking moron.

I'm inclined to agree.

If I didn't fear terrible retribution from Lord Wong, I would engage this guy in debate, doing the aforementioned copy/paste from Mike's site.

Just kidding of course, but it seems like a good possibility for Mike (or anyone with the time and interest) to make some cash. Though, I don't know how the resulting book would really sell given some of the conditions set in the debate agreement form. Seems like it'd be something of a dry read.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-11-18 06:13pm

How much he's offering?

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 06:32pm

Captain Lennox wrote:How much he's offering?

No set amount. Looks like some sort of agreement to share in the profits of the sales of the book the debate would be published in. As I said though, not sure how well it would sell given some of the conditions set out in the debate agreement (specifically, no making fun of the other party [maybe it was religion, I ferget]).

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-18 07:44pm

This guy requires that the lead "evolutionist" must hold a doctorate in science or applied sciences. To my knowledge no one on this board holds that type of degree. Besides, very few PhDs will want to waste their time with this knat.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 07:49pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:This guy requires that the lead "evolutionist" must hold a doctorate in science or applied sciences. To my knowledge no one on this board holds that type of degree. Besides, very few PhDs will want to waste their time with this knat.

Shewt, missed that all-important word. An elitist prick he is.

There is a clause in the agreement allowing for some change to the conditions. Given that he can't have too many takers, and that pointing out the lack of a degree is hardly attacking one's argument, I think he might relent on that one, neh?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-18 07:55pm

It is nothing more than a giant collection of longstanding creationist claims, and a diligent recording of countless unanswered questions about the universe, all with the implicit claim that whatever science does not yet have an answer for can be answered by assuming the existence of God.

This guy obviously subscribes to the exhaustion method. In any given debate, he would attempt to simply overwhelm his opponent with his enormous library of creationist claims rather than restricting exchanges to a manageable length. A 100,000 word limit is simply insane. Think of Darkstar x 5.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-18 07:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:It is nothing more than a giant collection of longstanding creationist claims, and a diligent recording of countless unanswered questions about the universe, all with the implicit claim that whatever science does not yet have an answer for can be answered by assuming the existence of God.

This guy obviously subscribes to the exhaustion method. In any given debate, he would attempt to simply overwhelm his opponent with his enormous library of creationist claims rather than restricting exchanges to a manageable length. A 100,000 word limit is simply insane. Think of Darkstar x 5.

Ow. My head. Why did you have to go and do that Wong?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-18 08:02pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:This guy requires that the lead "evolutionist" must hold a doctorate in science or applied sciences. To my knowledge no one on this board holds that type of degree. Besides, very few PhDs will want to waste their time with this knat.

Besides, the only different between a PhD engineer and a Bachelor engineer is that a PhD has done research. Many of my friends went into post-grad. You don't actually learn anything new; you simply learn how to do research and you must write a thesis. He is no more qualified than I am, but to put it bluntly, I'm smarter. For example, he subscribes to the idiotic "hydroplate" theory, in which a vast global layer of water was buried under the ground. The massive, glaring flaws in that theory have been explained by many others, as well as myself on my website. He also uses the rapid geological shift argument to claim that mountains rose and fell during the Great Flood despite the monstrous tidal waves and heat release that would have boiled the oceans and killed Noah, which any engineer should be aware of since work-heating is elementary engineering.

He goes into great detail about his theories, but an extensively detailed theory whose predictions are absurd is no better than any shitty theory hastily sketched on a napkin.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-11-18 08:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:This guy obviously subscribes to the exhaustion method. In any given debate, he would attempt to simply overwhelm his opponent with his enormous library of creationist claims rather than restricting exchanges to a manageable length. A 100,000 word limit is simply insane. Think of Darkstar x 5.

My God. I think we've just met.. Darth Wong's foe.

Think of it. Darkstar almost submerged our hero with his stupidity, his wall of ignorance withstood all. Lord Wong survived, barely. With the power of evil multiplied by five, all hope is lost.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-18 08:09pm

I like the part where the guy says that the debate will not include religion, when creationism is in fact a

FUCKING RELIGIOUS BELIEF!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-18 08:10pm

Think of it! This is Lord Wong's ultimate calling! An archnemesis! It shall be a grand conflict, a historic battle of epic proportions!

It shall rage for forty thousand days and forty thousand nights! When the dust has cleared, only one will be standing, and his name will be etched forever in the anals of history!

VICTORY! VICTORY! VICTORY!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-18 08:12pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I like the part where the guy says that the debate will not include religion, when creationism is in fact a

FUCKING RELIGIOUS BELIEF!

Well, he is a creationist. No one ever said creationists were self consistent.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 08:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:It is nothing more than a giant collection of longstanding creationist claims, and a diligent recording of countless unanswered questions about the universe, all with the implicit claim that whatever science does not yet have an answer for can be answered by assuming the existence of God.

I'm sure he'd fight you tooth and nail on the assumption that he is referring to a Creation by the Christian God as opposed to just any ol'd deity. He seems to present himself as arguing for creation by any god, just so long as evolution/big bang/etc. is torn down as an explanation for the way things are and came to be. In any case, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you were dead on about the content of his arguments.

This guy obviously subscribes to the exhaustion method. In any given debate, he would attempt to simply overwhelm his opponent with his enormous library of creationist claims rather than restricting exchanges to a manageable length. A 100,000 word limit is simply insane. Think of Darkstar x 5.

Well, how exhausting would it be if the reply period is 4 months? C'mon Mike, easy money if this thing get's published.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-18 08:13pm

More like boredom, boredom, boredom. Exhaustion-debaters are pure tedium.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-18 08:14pm

Besides, I suspect he would summarily refuse to debate me because I'm not a PhD.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 08:15pm

Darth Wong wrote:More like boredom, boredom, boredom. Exhaustion-debaters are pure tedium.

Yeah, he does seem intent on keeping anything of even minimal entertainment value out of the debate, like insults and such.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-11-18 08:16pm

Cromag wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:More like boredom, boredom, boredom. Exhaustion-debaters are pure tedium.
Yeah, he does seem intent on keeping anything of even minimal entertainment value out of the debate, like insults and such.

Of course. Once everyone is bored to death, the creationist idiot can lie all he wants about what actually happened because he knows no one will actually read the whole thing.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2002-11-18 08:16pm

Darth Wong wrote:Besides, I suspect he would summarily refuse to debate me because I'm not a PhD.

There is a clause that allows for an applicant to petition for a change in the debate terms. I was thinking that since he can't get too many takers on this, he may be willing to bend on the degree requirement.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-18 08:21pm

I would get a kick out of debating him, but he's never going to accept what I want, which is a reasonably concise discussion. He wants something he can publish for profit (with no promises of monetary compensation to the other party, I note).

I would prefer to debate him on just a single issue, since that would be manageable. The Great Flood issue, for example.