Creationist guy coming to UC Davis this Fri

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2005-04-27 10:40pm

The local Christian organization Grace Alive has been putting up flyers for some guy named Michael Behe. He'll be speaking at 194 Chemistry this friday evening. The topic will be related to something he wrote called "Darwin's Black Box". If anyone's in the area and wants to see for himself what a Creationist lecture looks like then drop on in. I won't be in attendence because I have other plans.

For anyone who's been to UC Davis and anywhere else, are Christians more active here than in other campuses? I see a lot of Christian and Creationist flyers up around here. Do other colleges get that too?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-04-27 11:16pm

Oy, Michael Behe? The irreducible complexity freak? He's technically not a creationist, just an ID-creationist-in-a-disguise theorist.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-04-27 11:17pm

Come on, pal, you can't not know that Behe character. The man's famous for introducing the ideas of "irreducible complexity" and "intelligent design."

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/behe.html
http://www.creationtheory.org/Essays/In ... sign.shtml

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-04-27 11:22pm

If you can, you should priny off this page and see if you can get someone to pass them round to the people going listening to Behe.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2005-04-27 11:41pm

TalkOrigins also has some(ok, lots of) articles

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-27 11:43pm

I wish I was there to rip apart a PH. D in public. It would be my crowning achievment.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-04-28 12:05am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I wish I was there to rip apart a PH. D in public. It would be my crowning achievment.

You'd get demolished. Prominent creationist public speakers are very good at what they do, or they'd risk getting humiliated every time they spoke in front of a non-religious audience.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-04-28 12:43am

I have a book devoted to tearing apart Behe and Dembski's arguments. It's a fun read, even though it cost me like $35.

Remember, the mousetrap argument doesn't work because mousetraps are made from blueprints, while mice are made from recipies. Also, mousetraps CAN be reduced to fewer parts... down to one!

I laughed out loud reading that.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-04-28 03:04am

Rax, are you going to that?

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-04-28 03:08am

Ugh. I never like hearing Behe's name. I was recently writing a paper on how creationism is a load of bullshit for one of my graduation requirements. In order to be able to get some direct quotes to show how stupid it is, I had to locate and check out Darwin's Black Box.

I felt tainted. Like I needed to take a shower or something.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2005-04-28 04:25am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I wish I was there to rip apart a PH. D in public. It would be my crowning achievment.

I've only got to do it infront of an audience of a single class, but let me tell you...it is sooo fucking theraputic.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-04-28 06:45am

Superman wrote:Rax, are you going to that?

Supes, in the OP he said he can't go. I'd go, but my church group meets friday nights.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-28 10:40am

RedImperator wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I wish I was there to rip apart a PH. D in public. It would be my crowning achievment.
You'd get demolished. Prominent creationist public speakers are very good at what they do, or they'd risk getting humiliated every time they spoke in front of a non-religious audience.

All I have to do is ask how ID is falsifiable. That is it, and he is done in an y sort of upper level science class.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2005-04-28 10:54am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:All I have to do is ask how ID is falsifiable. That is it, and he is done in an y sort of upper level science class.

To be fair, Behe's no frothing fundamentalist. You might get somewhere in asking him to identify and list any assumptions in his argument and see how much he's willing to acknowledge is wrong with his ideas, but he'd probably drown you in pseudoscientific 'evidence' if you really cornered him...and it's when the subject matter passes the limits of the audience's knowledge that the ID supporters have control of the discussion.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-04-28 11:03am

Ask him how his book is any different from "we don't know how it progressed from point A to point B, so God did it!" ask him where his direct evidence that implies outside design or intelligences, rather than falling back on this with incomplete evolutionary models. Its clear he is treating ID as the a priori default conclusion. He's never justified this.

Furthermore, what evidence is there that modern biochemical mechanisms were always as complex as they are today?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-28 11:10am

I can pull out equations that model underdominant selection which actually disprove intelligent design

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-28 11:11am

Or rather, provide a strong argument against it. seeing as he cold answer with "God did it"

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-04-28 11:17am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I can pull out equations that model underdominant selection which actually disprove intelligent design

You labor under the delusion that the majority of the public actually cares about the substance of your argument. You'll convince other Ph. D's and science students, but not the average layman.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-04-28 11:19am

Durandal wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I can pull out equations that model underdominant selection which actually disprove intelligent design
You labor under the delusion that the majority of the public actually cares about the substance of your argument. You'll convince other Ph. D's and science students, but not the average layman.

Indeed. But I want to say "Mr. Behe, you do not deserve your PH. D when someone who doesnt even have a Bachelors can wipe the floor with you in this matter"

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-04-28 11:22am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I can pull out equations that model underdominant selection which actually disprove intelligent design
You labor under the delusion that the majority of the public actually cares about the substance of your argument. You'll convince other Ph. D's and science students, but not the average layman.
Indeed. But I want to say "Mr. Behe, you do not deserve your PH. D when someone who doesnt even have a Bachelors can wipe the floor with you in this matter"

And I can guarantee you that he'll come back with something even more scathing. He's got a metric shit-ton more public speaking experience than you do. Don't think you'll win over just because you have the facts on your side. That was John Kerry's mistake.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2005-04-28 11:33am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I wish I was there to rip apart a PH. D in public. It would be my crowning achievment.
You'd get demolished. Prominent creationist public speakers are very good at what they do, or they'd risk getting humiliated every time they spoke in front of a non-religious audience.
All I have to do is ask how ID is falsifiable. That is it, and he is done in an y sort of upper level science class.

You think nobody's ever tried this before? He'll have four responses from which to chose:

1. A philosophical attack on the concept of "falsifiability"

2. He'll claim it IS falsifiable

3. Claim evolution is unfalsifiable

4. Change the subject

Whichever one he choses, he'll have reams of "evidence"--philosophical arcana, out of context quotes, folksy analogies, factual assertions about cosmology, geology, quantum physics, chemistry, probability, statistics, and just about anything else he can think of, and if all else fails, just plain bullshit--all of which he'll fire at you in machine-gun fashion, with no chance for you to respond. At any rate, there's no realisitc chance you could respond to all of it anyway--real PhD's in biology have been tripped up by these tactics. Since most of the audience doesn't understand what EITHER of you are talking about, the fact that he talked longer, and you were unable to reply effectively, is a point for him.

Imagine if Darkstar was giving a talk about ST v. SW, and you were in the audience. Imagine the audience is not primarily regular vs. debaters, but a mix of interested laymen and Trekkies. Imagine that he's memorized every argument on his website, with all the references and everything else, to the point he can recite any page off his site verbatim (this is not unbelievable with Darkstar--it may actually be true). Now, do you seriously think you could "demolish" him under those conditions? This is what trying to debate someone like Behe from the audience will be like.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-04-28 01:19pm

Just send him over to UC Berkley or Santa Cruz

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2005-04-28 02:12pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I can pull out equations that model underdominant selection which actually disprove intelligent design

And I can ask you for a link. Please?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-04-28 03:12pm

Alyrium, the truth of the matter is that Behe is a respectable scientist in his field, and he has made valuable contributions to the scientific community. He's got a lot of legitmate work behind him, he just also happens to be funny in thhe head.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-04-28 07:53pm

No Answers in Genesis page on Intelligent Design