Political Slant of Most US Universities

[Patrick Degan]

OK, howzabout this:

When Cooper reached the entrance to the Y, he reportedly saw Randy Weaver coming down the trail from the cabin, approximately 40-feet away from his position behind some brush.  When Randy first noticed Cooper, he appeared shocked.  At the time, Cooper had assumed that Roderick and Degan were covering Randy and he turned his attention to Harris and the dog, which were still behind him and yelled out, "Back off, U.S. Marshals," fearing that he had been set up for an ambush.

When the dog caught up to Cooper, it began growling and snarling, however Cooper decided not to shoot the dog, as he did not want the killing to invoke a firefight between himself and Harris.  After circling Cooper a few times, the dog ran past him and headed towards Roderick’s position.  Cooper left the trail and dove behind a rock approximately 15 feet behind Degan.

Roderick, who was farther up the Y, saw Randy Weaver running up the trail to the cabin.  Weaver was wearing a camouflage jacket and screamed something unintelligible.  Roderick yelled, "Stop! U.S. Marshal" at Weaver.  Roderick could not tell if Weaver continued up the trail or if he ran into the woods.

Cooper radioed Degan to join him, but Degan failed to respond.  He then saw that Harris and Sammy were walking directly in front of Degan.  Cooper observed Degan squatting behind a stump, facing up the trail.  When Harris and Sammy stepped out into the clearing, about six to ten feet from Degan's position, Cooper assumed they had escaped detection.  Regardless, he was taken off guard when Degan unexpectedly raised his weapon and aimed it at Harris and Sammy Weaver.  "Stop! U.S. Marshal," Degan yelled out to them.  Cooper then stood up from his position and repeated the phrase, however before he could get all the words out of his mouth, Kevin Harris wheeled around and fired at Degan with a 30.06 rifle.  Cooper looked over and saw Degan fall back, realizing that his comrade had just been shot.  Cooper then fired a three-round burst at Harris with the "suppressed”. 9mm.  According to Cooper, Harris dropped to the ground "Like a sack of potatoes."  Cooper was convinced that Harris was out of commission and then turned his weapon towards Sammy Weaver, but he could not tell if Sammy had a gun, because of trees blocking his view, so he did not shoot at Sammy.  Cooper did not realize that Degan had returned any fire before being shot.

Meanwhile, Roderick had moved south down the path.  He heard a shot from the direction he had last seen Cooper, Degan, Harris, and Sammy.  He was uncertain who had fired the shots, although he thought that it sounded like a heavy caliber weapon.  When the first shot was fired, the dog stopped and turned its head back toward the marshals.  Concerned that the dog would attack or lead Weaver, Harris, and the others toward the marshals, Roderick shot the dog with his M16 rifle, striking it near the base of the spine.  After he shot the dog, Roderick saw Sammy Weaver enter the Y and run up the trail.  Sammy called Roderick a, "son of a bitch" and shot two rounds at him.  Roderick quickly dove behind a tree.

During this time, Cooper heard two shots and Sammy Weaver yelling "You son of a bitch."  He then began taking fire and heard Degan call out, "Coop, I need you."  Cooper replied, "As soon as I can get 'em off our ass."  Cooper then rose to his feet and fired a second three-round burst in the direction from which he had last received fire, to provide cover as he tried to get to Degan.  Following these last shots, Cooper saw Sammy run out of view up the trail to the cabin.  Cooper did not think that any of his shots had hit Sammy Weaver.

When Cooper reached Degan's position he realized Degan had been hit once in the chest.  He was lying on his left side and within a few brief moments, he lost consciousness and died.  Cooper then radioed to Roderick that Degan had been hit and needed help.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_o ... ver/11.htm


Seems that Shep's article leaves out a few details (such as the Feds identifying themselves), and he doesn't cite a source for his information.

[The Dark]

It is entirely possible that Troop G assumed the students were pursuing them, and not dispersing. Under such circumstances, while the shootings are tragic, they are not impossible to comprehend. These were weekend warriors, not fully trained soldiers, and their reactions under pressure were much the same as most peoples': end the threat at all cost. If they believed themselves to be at threat, as their later testimonies showed, then their actions, while unfortunate, were justified.

I'm afraid such is not the case. As has been pointed out several times, there was a minimum distance of twenty metres between the soldiers and the protestors, and the latter were not in a posture of attack. What the soldiers felt is immaterial; a deadly-force threat situation was not imminent.

Troop G then turned and began to return towards the Commons. The students assumed the confrontation was over and began to travel around campus. The nervous soldiers turned, and approximately one dozen opened fire upon verbal order.

Troop G is retreating, the students are not approaching in a unified body, indeed appear to be dispersing, and the Guardsmen turn around and open fire toward the general direction of the crowd. Not even into the crowd but just in its direction. And not just one volley but thirteen seconds of sustained automatic weapons fire, in which you have people up to 180 metres away not even involved in the incident being hit by stray bullets. And some of the soldiers testified later that they weren't sure if a verbal command was given or not.

Given the location of the incident, if students began traveling to class, the ONLY students who would definitely travel in a direction away from the Guard would be music and art. Given that the Guard was retreating from the North portion of campus, which are mostly residence halls, if the students were going "towards class," they were traveling in the same direction. Only one road leads from where the Guard was, so any students following the road would have been following the Guard. I don't know if this was actually the case, but there is no evidence that the students were not traveling in what appeared to be a unified body.

Additionally, M1s are not automatic weapons. The M1 Garand is a semi-auotmatic rifle. It would be quite incredible for 12 automatic weapons (the eventual number of confirmed shooters) to shoot only five dozen rounds in 13 seconds.

You can't excuse the incident on the basis of the "weekend warriors'" alledged poor training. Indeed, that increases the culpability on the part of the commander on the ground and Gov. Rhodes, who mobilised the Guard in the first place, in four wrongful deaths. If your troops are that poorly trained and disciplined, then they have no business being on the field with live ammunition.

I agree they should not have been carrying loaded weapons (though they should have carried ammunition, just in case). They were unnecessarily given the information that they could shoot. However, I do not see the soldiers themselves as responsible. I agree that their officer was a fool, and that the Guard should have had a tighter rein on their responsibilities.

[MKSheppard]

Seems that Shep's article leaves out a few details (such as the Feds identifying themselves), and he doesn't cite a source for his information.

And you forget that everyone involved on the Weaver side was aquitted
by a jury of their peers of ALL CHARGES, except for the original charge
against Weaver, which was not paying a $5 dollar TAX on that shotgun.

I wonder which version they believed, the COVER YOUR ASS version put
forth by the Feds, or Weaver and Company's version...hmm?

[Patrick Degan]

And you forget that everyone involved on the Weaver side was aquitted by a jury of their peers of ALL CHARGES, except for the original charge against Weaver, which was not paying a $5 dollar TAX on that shotgun.

I wonder which version they believed, the COVER YOUR ASS version put
forth by the Feds, or Weaver and Company's version...hmm?

I forget nothing, Shep. The jury found that the Weavers weren't guilty of murder and indeed, the evidence never supported any such charge. They were rightly acquitted. Nor is there any real dispute that Vicki Weaver was killed by excessive force from law enforcement personnel and that Lou Horuchi lied under oath in attempting to cover his ass.

You'll get no argument from me that Horuchi should be in prison and that both Larry Potts and Louis Freeh should have been dismissed from service. Randy Weaver was entitled to every dime that he got from the wrongful death suit.

But let's not make a saint of the man, shall we? Despite the fact that the Feds were trying to set him up on the gun charge, the intelligent move would have been for Weaver to fight this out in court. Not from a hillside fortress. Weaver's paranoia about the world in general led to that tragedy as much as the violently irresponsible conduct of the FBI.

There might have been three fewer deaths that way.

[MKSheppard]

I forget nothing, Shep. The jury found that the Weavers weren't guilty of murder and indeed, the evidence never supported any such charge. They were rightly acquitted. Nor is there any real dispute that Vicki Weaver was killed by excessive force from law enforcement personnel and that Lou Horuchi lied under oath in attempting to cover his ass.

You forget that it is INSANELY hard to be acquitted of killing a Federal
Agent, much as Randy's friend was. If you're responsible for the death
of a Fed in these times, you might as well just blow your brains out,
it'll be quicker and more merciful than what will happen to you.

But let's not make a saint of the man, shall we? Despite the fact that the Feds were trying to set him up on the gun charge, the intelligent move would have been for Weaver to fight this out in court. Not from a hillside fortress. Weaver's paranoia about the world in general led to that tragedy as much as the violently irresponsible conduct of the FBI.

There might have been three fewer deaths that way.

Fight it out in court? Hah. I can count on my hands the number of people
who have fought the government and WON on NFA charges.

BTW, the court papers that were sent to Weaver informing him of his
court date HAD THE WRONG DATE ON THEM. When he failed to
show up BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER BEEN TOLD OF THE COURT DATE,
they issued a warrant for him.

The entire issue stemmed from Randy's refusal to be an informant
for the Feds in the Aryan Nations. He told the Feds to "Fuck off and Die"
when they said they'd put him in jail unless he infiltrated the Aryan
Nations for them....

[Patrick Degan]

You can't excuse the incident on the basis of the "weekend warriors'" alledged poor training. Indeed, that increases the culpability on the part of the commander on the ground and Gov. Rhodes, who mobilised the Guard in the first place, in four wrongful deaths. If your troops are that poorly trained and disciplined, then they have no business being on the field with live ammunition.

I agree they should not have been carrying loaded weapons (though they should have carried ammunition, just in case). They were unnecessarily given the information that they could shoot. However, I do not see the soldiers themselves as responsible. I agree that their officer was a fool, and that the Guard should have had a tighter rein on their responsibilities.

On that basis, I'd agree. It would have been more a matter of the soldiers panicking than deliberate intent on their part to commit murder. They should never have been on that field, and both their officer and Gov. Rhodes were fools.

[Patrick Degan]

You forget that it is INSANELY hard to be acquitted of killing a Federal Agent, much as Randy's friend was. If you're responsible for the death of a Fed in these times, you might as well just blow your brains out, it'll be quicker and more merciful than what will happen to you.

You're missing the point —the entire confrontation was not necessary in the first place had Weaver simply decided to surrender before any shooting began even if the gun charge was bullshit to start with.

Fight it out in court? Hah. I can count on my hands the number of people who have fought the government and WON on NFA charges.

BTW, the court papers that were sent to Weaver informing him of his
court date HAD THE WRONG DATE ON THEM. When he failed to
show up BECAUSE HE HAD NEVER BEEN TOLD OF THE COURT DATE,
they issued a warrant for him.

In that case, he's got an automatic appeal on the grounds of procedural impropriety. However, you don't respond to a warrant signed by a Federal judge with barracades and an arsenal.

The entire issue stemmed from Randy's refusal to be an informant
for the Feds in the Aryan Nations. He told the Feds to "Fuck off and Die"
when they said they'd put him in jail unless he infiltrated the Aryan
Nations for them....

No, the entire issue stemmed from Weaver's paranoia that the New World Order were trying to turn him and his family into robots for the Antichrist. Do try to look at things from beyond the filter of Right Wing Millitiaworld for a change.

[The Dark]

You can't excuse the incident on the basis of the "weekend warriors'" alledged poor training. Indeed, that increases the culpability on the part of the commander on the ground and Gov. Rhodes, who mobilised the Guard in the first place, in four wrongful deaths. If your troops are that poorly trained and disciplined, then they have no business being on the field with live ammunition.

I agree they should not have been carrying loaded weapons (though they should have carried ammunition, just in case). They were unnecessarily given the information that they could shoot. However, I do not see the soldiers themselves as responsible. I agree that their officer was a fool, and that the Guard should have had a tighter rein on their responsibilities.

On that basis, I'd agree. It would have been more a matter of the soldiers panicking than deliberate intent on their part to commit murder. They should never have been on that field, and both their officer and Gov. Rhodes were fools.

Wow...we actually agree for once. Now the world may end; the impossible has occured .

[MKSheppard]

No, the entire issue stemmed from Weaver's paranoia that the New World Order were trying to turn him and his family into robots for the Antichrist. Do try to look at things from beyond the filter of Right Wing Millitiaworld for a change.

No, the entire issue stemmed over the Federal Governments attempt to
entrap Randy Weaver into doing their dirty work as an informant
inside the Aryan Nations.

And please don't tell me that our beloved government would never
entrap anyone, oh please.

EDIT: Just ask a bunch of congressmen about THAT

[Patrick Degan]

No, the entire issue stemmed from Weaver's paranoia that the New World Order were trying to turn him and his family into robots for the Antichrist. Do try to look at things from beyond the filter of Right Wing Millitiaworld for a change.

No, the entire issue stemmed over the Federal Governments attempt to entrap Randy Weaver into doing their dirty work as an informant inside the Aryan Nations.

Gee, maybe if Weaver hadn't been so religiously insane to believe that the Apocalypse was nigh and justified piling up his own private arsenal on his hilltop fortress/clubhouse, he might not even have been in the position of selling or buying weapons of questionable legality in the first place which wouldn't have put him under the notice of the Feds as a target for entrapment?

And please don't tell me that our beloved government would never entrap anyone, oh please.

Who said I believe anything like that? I'm simply pointing out that your chosen saint was a religiously insane nutcase who caused half his own problems and made the idiotic decision to fight his legal troubles with guns instead of with lawyers.

[MKSheppard]

Gee, maybe if Weaver hadn't been so religiously insane to believe that the Apocalypse was nigh and justified piling up his own private arsenal on his hilltop fortress/clubhouse, he might not even have been in the position of selling or buying weapons of questionable legality in the first place which wouldn't have put him under the notice of the Feds as a target for entrapment?

The cabin--really a shack--was home to 44-year old former Green Beret Randy Weaver and his family--wife, Vicki; son, Sammy; and daughters, Sara, Rachel and Elisheba. It was also home to their young friend, Kevin Harris. They were subsistence hunters, and tended a garden, putting up vegetables. A generator produced occasional electricity. They had no TV, no radio.

What a great mountain fortress, Degan.

I think you're getting your BATF entrapment cases mixed up here.

Can you produce me the evidence you have that Randy Weaver
had a hidden arsenal of machine guns, assault rifles, and explosives?

Oh that's right. You don't have any evidence of the above.

Who said I believe anything like that? I'm simply pointing out that your chosen saint was a religiously insane nutcase who caused half his own problems and made the idiotic decision to fight his legal troubles with guns instead of with lawyers.

And you conviently forget that the government sent Weaver a letter with
the WRONG COURT DATE printed on it.

[Darth Wong]

Weaver used his family as human shields. You can blame the feds for acting wrongly, but to lionize a confirmed idiot and lunatic is simply unreasonable.

[MKSheppard]

Weaver used his family as human shields. You can blame the feds for acting wrongly, but to lionize a confirmed idiot and lunatic is simply unreasonable.

Evidence of this accusation, please. It was the FBI snipers who
fired at an UNIDENTIFIED TARGET behind a moving window
curtain that killed Vikki Weaver.

[Darth Wong]

Weaver used his family as human shields. You can blame the feds for acting wrongly, but to lionize a confirmed idiot and lunatic is simply unreasonable.

Evidence of this accusation, please. It was the FBI snipers who fired at an UNIDENTIFIED TARGET behind a moving window curtain that killed Vikki Weaver.

Shep, when a lot of guys with guns want you, you don't hole up in a cabin with your family unless you are using them as human shields. You get far away from your family.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, when a lot of guys with guns want you, you don't hole up in a cabin with your family unless you are using them as human shields. You get far away from your family.

What if you cannot get far away from your family? What if you have the
following around your house, which is being referred to as a "compound"?

What if you have a fucking ROBOT pointing a shotgun at your fucking
door, what if you have 11 snipers zeroed in on your fucking house, what
if you have 400+ federal agents surrounding the woods around your place?

[Darth Wong]

Shep, when a lot of guys with guns want you, you don't hole up in a cabin with your family unless you are using them as human shields. You get far away from your family.

What if you cannot get far away from your family? What if you have the
following around your house, which is being referred to as a "compound"?

What if you have a fucking ROBOT pointing a shotgun at your fucking
door, what if you have 11 snipers zeroed in on your fucking house, what
if you have 400+ federal agents surrounding the woods around your place?

Then you've already holed yourself up with your family, using them as human shields.

[Alyeska]

Its interesting how people like Shep say the rioters got what they deserved and the Guards were justified in what they did when 2 students who were not part of the rally were killed.

That fact alone is the proof that the guardsman fucked up royally. You do not fire into civilian targets when their are innocents around. That is one of the FIRST things they teach police officers. Don't fucking shoot at suspects in crowded areas.

[Darth Wong]

Shep says that the feds used excessive force on Randy Weaver (which most people agree with), and that he was not using his family as human shields (which simply cannot be rationalized with the facts). Then he turns around and says that anybody in the vicinity of a riot can be shot and killed fairly. Gotta love knee-jerk types ... they rarely check for self-contradictions before venting.

[Alyeska]

Shep says that the feds used excessive force on Randy Weaver (which most people agree with), and that he was not using his family as human shields (which simply cannot be rationalized with the facts). Then he turns around and says that anybody in the vicinity of a riot can be shot and killed fairly. Gotta love knee-jerk types ... they rarely check for self-contradictions before venting.

Basically if they are conservative like Shep, then its excesive force. But if its Liberals at college they earned every bit of it, and then some.

Yeah, I think Shep is a compelte fucking idiot to.

[MKSheppard]

Shep says that the feds used excessive force on Randy Weaver (which most people agree with), and that he was not using his family as human shields (which simply cannot be rationalized with the facts). Then he turns around and says that anybody in the vicinity of a riot can be shot and killed fairly. Gotta love knee-jerk types ... they rarely check for self-contradictions before venting.

*sigh*

Randy Weaver had done nothing to anyone, except to sell a gun a few
fractions of an inch short. Those college students were rioting, firebombing
the ROTC building, throwing rocks and bags of SHIT at people.

Next you're going to say those Korean Shopowners back in the LA Riots
should have let the mobs loot and burn their stores instead of shooting
back?

[Darth Wong]

Randy Weaver had done nothing to anyone, except to sell a gun a few fractions of an inch short. Those college students were rioting, firebombing the ROTC building, throwing rocks and bags of SHIT at people.

He was in an armed stand-off with federal officers. He was more of a credible threat to them than the students at Kent were to the NG. How he got there is irrelevant; the point is that your reasoning is contradictory.

Next you're going to say those Korean Shopowners back in the LA Riots should have let the mobs loot and burn their stores instead of shooting
back?

Red herring. This disagreement is about the use of lethal force in policing, but in typical Shep style, you shamelessly attempt to drag in all of your Pet Issues in order to muddy it up.

Besides, I hate to break it to you, but most people recognize that in the great hierarchy of values, property < human life. This may come as a shock to you, but while neither is good, killing someone is worse than burning or looting a convenience store.

[MKSheppard]

He was in an armed stand-off with federal officers. He was more of a credible threat to them than the students at Kent were to the NG. How he got there is irrelevant; the point is that your reasoning is contradictory.

And who opened fire first? The Feds by blowing away his dog.

Besides, I hate to break it to you, but most people recognize that in the great hierarchy of values, property < human life. This may come as a shock to you, but while neither is good, killing someone is worse than burning or looting a convenience store.

Please explain that to the Koreans in South Central LA who have
their entire LIVES put into those stores, indeed, their entire FAMILY SAVINGS
in those stores.

[Darth Wong]

And who opened fire first? The Feds by blowing away his dog.

So? This doesn't change the fact that he was armed, so he was a more credible threat to the feds than the unarmed rioters at Kent. Next time, at least try to pretend that you're answering the point instead of evading it.

Besides, I hate to break it to you, but most people recognize that in the great hierarchy of values, property < human life. This may come as a shock to you, but while neither is good, killing someone is worse than burning or looting a convenience store.

Please explain that to the Koreans in South Central LA who have
their entire LIVES put into those stores, indeed, their entire FAMILY SAVINGS
in those stores.

If they didn't have insurance, they were idiots. If they had insurance, they were shooting people for little reason. Once again, property < human life.

[MKSheppard]

So? This doesn't change the fact that he was armed, so he was a more credible threat to the feds than the unarmed rioters at Kent. Next time, at least try to pretend that you're answering the point instead of evading it.

Oh great, the typical Wong sidestep. Those rioters were throwing BRICKS.

One of the guardsmen got the crap knocked out of him by a brick hitting
him.

If they didn't have insurance, they were idiots. If they had insurance, they were shooting people for little reason. Once again, property < human life.

Have you ever considered the possibility that if you DO NOT RESIST, you will
encounter GREVIOUS BODILY HARM? During the LA Riots, the blacks were
out in force, attacking ANYONE who they percieved as oppressing them,
mostly whites and Asians.

[Darth Wong]

So? This doesn't change the fact that he was armed, so he was a more credible threat to the feds than the unarmed rioters at Kent. Next time, at least try to pretend that you're answering the point instead of evading it.

Oh great, the typical Wong sidestep. Those rioters were throwing BRICKS.

And a brick thrown from 60 feet away is a more credible threat to life and limb than a rifle ... how?

If they didn't have insurance, they were idiots. If they had insurance, they were shooting people for little reason. Once again, property < human life.

Have you ever considered the possibility that if you DO NOT RESIST, you will encounter GREVIOUS BODILY HARM? During the Riots, the blacks were out in force, attacking ANYONE who they percieved as oppressing them, mostly whites and Asians.

That's why you run away instead of playing Custer. Property can be replaced. People can't.