Nic Gillard on the duel in RotS- no spoiler

[Vympel]

To design and choreograph the sequence- as well as the myriad other action-packed scenes in Revenge of the Sith- Gillard says he first discussed with writer-director George Lucas the fighting prowess of each of the characters, which were ranked against other Jedi on a scale of 1 to 10.

"Obi-Wan is a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9- and the difference between level 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can go to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

This is from the Lucasfilm press pack, which I have just gotten in .pdf format.

One worrying thing- I cannot see James Earl Jones in the credits anywhere.

[Master of Ossus]

[snip article]

That sounds great. My dad commented after seeing Episode I that the duel between Maul, Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon was the most impressive fight scene he had ever seen in a movie precisely because you learned so much about the personalities, abilities, and values of the characters by watching them fight. I'm really looking forward to what they come up with for the epic finale of the Saga.

One worrying thing- I cannot see James Earl Jones in the credits anywhere.

I wouldn't worry about that too much, since from what I've seenVader doesn't do much after he jumps in the suit.

[Mark S]

Perhaps one or two lines of voice work doesn't get you in the credits and he wasn't such a deva as to demand it? *shrug*

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wonder what Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are?

[lordmakalpine]

I think that Nick Gillard said somewhere along the line that they are all on par or better than Anakin.

[Dillon]

Wonder what Mace, Yoda, and Sidious are?

I don't know if this is spoiler material, so just in case . I read somewhere that they are all level 9. Apparently, Anakin has the potential to be level 10, but loses it when he loses a lot of his organic componets.

[YT300000]

One worrying thing- I cannot see James Earl Jones in the credits anywhere.

First teaser trailer.

[Dillon]

One worrying thing- I cannot see James Earl Jones in the credits anywhere.

First teaser trailer.

Am I the only one who's heard the claim that it was actually Hayden Christensen's voice in the first trailer and that they later played around with it on a computer to make it sound Vaderish? I still don't believe it, but I saw it floating around some sites a while ago.

[Stravo]

So does this scale mean that a Dark side Master will always beat a light side master in a straight up fight? I mean if level 9 and 10 are reserved for Dark side users then that means that Yoda truly lied when he told Luke the Dark side wasn't stronger. And the darkside isn't simply equal and opposite.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I don't really think that something like this would actually apply to what occurs in the world of SW. Seems just more like a production guideline.

[Gandalf]

So does this scale mean that a Dark side Master will always beat a light side master in a straight up fight? I mean if level 9 and 10 are reserved for Dark side users then that means that Yoda truly lied when he told Luke the Dark side wasn't stronger. And the darkside isn't simply equal and opposite.

Perhaps it's a bit like the Rocky sequels. Strength isn't as big a factor as the whole mental/spiritual side of things?

[Galvatron]

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So does this scale mean that a Dark side Master will always beat a light side master in a straight up fight? I mean if level 9 and 10 are reserved for Dark side users then that means that Yoda truly lied when he told Luke the Dark side wasn't stronger. And the darkside isn't simply equal and opposite.

Well the Dark Side isn't really stronger; sure it can give you a burst of power in a duel or struggle of pure strength, but it eats away at you, makes your subordinates betray you, and essentially destroys you. Yoda could manifest great power and wisdom at a great age. And personally, it just seems like Gilliard is saying that you can go to Level 9 or 10 Jedi or dark, but by omiting the mental aspect and emphasizing Anakin on the physical aspect, it seems one cannot tap into that strength without going dark and losing control - unless they have great wisdom and personal fortitude, like Yoda or Mace. Consider that this is corroborated in the EU, with Mace's combat form - Vapaad, channeling and brushing the dark but never immersing in it, and requiring great mastery and self-control. And this also fits perfectly with what Yoda says in the OT: "No - quicker, easier, more seductive."

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

Where's that indicated?

[Ghost Rider]

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

Where's that indicated?

In KoTOR2, when asked about a Sith Lord(Tulak Hord) of long ago, Kriea says that Jedi of your time were but children compared to those of back then.

[Elheru Aran]

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

Where's that indicated?

In the Tales of the Jedi comics; Exar Kun successfully mutates the Massassi race. Aleema Keto also detonates a sun (or was that Kun? Can't remember).

Kun was also capable of coming onto Coruscant, and facing down his Master on the Senate floor, before the full assembly of the Republic's Senators and many Jedi. He slew his Master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, and walked out, untouched.

Tell me that doesn't take brass balls of monumental proportion...

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

Where's that indicated?

In KoTOR2, when asked about a Sith Lord(Tulak Hord) of long ago, Kriea says that Jedi of your time were but children compared to those of back then.

Sounds like "good ol' days" and grandiose posturing to me.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wonder how they'd rate the ancient Sith Lords who supposedly made modern Jedi and Sith look like kids with toys by comparison.

Where's that indicated?

In the Tales of the Jedi comics; Exar Kun successfully mutates the Massassi race. Aleema Keto also detonates a sun (or was that Kun? Can't remember).

He did this aided by Sith artifacts and technology.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He did this aided by Sith artifacts and technology.

Even if that's so, it indicates a far greater understanding of the Force than present. Now, they can't use artificats and tech to boost their powers to such wanking levels, could they?

[Illuminatus Primus]

He did this aided by Sith artifacts and technology.

Even if that's so, it indicates a far greater understanding of the Force than present. Now, they can't use artificats and tech to boost their powers to such wanking levels, could they?

Why do you think this? The Sith alchemical apparti and Force amplification/focusing apparti were freely produced en masse during the Great Hyperspace War era, and Exar Kun accessed them from Sadow's Sith battleship, the solely remaining example of it. By the Battle of Ruusan era, the only genuine Sith artifacts left are small-fry gimmicks, like the ones described as being competed over by dark Jedi in the Dark Side Sourcebook. The technological base and techniques for producing them is simply lost. But this is not intrinsically so: Palpatine just brute-forced it (no doubt allowing cost to his physical mortality and vitality that the Sith no doubt endevoured to avoid) with the aid of drawing on citizens' life force. He also developed alchemical techniques himself as evidenced by his crysallides.

[Vympel]

Vader doesn't do much after he jumps in the suit.

He does have lines, so I'm hoping it's JEJ speaking them.

[GeneralTacticus]

Where's that indicated?

In KoTOR2, when asked about a Sith Lord(Tulak Hord) of long ago, Kriea says that Jedi of your time were but children compared to those of back then.

Sounds like "good ol' days" and grandiose posturing to me.

Well, actually she wasn't even talking about Force powers; she was referring to his skill with lightsabre. According to her, Tulak Hord was the greatest lightsabre duellist of his age, which contained many other master duellists. You're given the option to respond with something along the lines of "are you implying that Jedi now are unskilled with the lightsabre?"; she responds with a very contemptuous "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are but children playing with toys compared to them".

And, yes, it's possible that she was exaggerating, but she is very knowledgeable about the history of the Sith, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

And, yes, it's possible that she was exaggerating, but she is very knowledgeable about the history of the Sith, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.

With that new, popularized Form 6? I'm inclined to buy it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well, actually she wasn't even talking about Force powers; she was referring to his skill with lightsabre. According to her, Tulak Hord was the greatest lightsabre duellist of his age, which contained many other master duellists. You're given the option to respond with something along the lines of "are you implying that Jedi now are unskilled with the lightsabre?"; she responds with a very contemptuous "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are but children playing with toys compared to them".

And, yes, it's possible that she was exaggerating, but she is very knowledgeable about the history of the Sith, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.

Well, that I can believe; they'd been perfecting the martial art of it for thousands of years and they had many, many practioners.

[Rogue 9]

So does this scale mean that a Dark side Master will always beat a light side master in a straight up fight? I mean if level 9 and 10 are reserved for Dark side users then that means that Yoda truly lied when he told Luke the Dark side wasn't stronger. And the darkside isn't simply equal and opposite.

I didn't read it that way. It said that Anakin, formerly at level 8, jumped to level 9 because of the abandon that the dark side grants. It also says that a Jedi can, in fact, achieve that level. So a Jedi can attain that power as well through training and discipline but, as Yoda said, the dark side is quicker and easier.

[Stofsk]

Well, actually she wasn't even talking about Force powers; she was referring to his skill with lightsabre. According to her, Tulak Hord was the greatest lightsabre duellist of his age, which contained many other master duellists. You're given the option to respond with something along the lines of "are you implying that Jedi now are unskilled with the lightsabre?"; she responds with a very contemptuous "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are but children playing with toys compared to them".

And, yes, it's possible that she was exaggerating, but she is very knowledgeable about the history of the Sith, so I'm inclined to take her word for it.

Well, that I can believe; they'd been perfecting the martial art of it for thousands of years and they had many, many practioners.

...

Guys, Kreia is a two-faced witch. She has every reason to lie, every reason to fuck with your character, and you (the PC) have every reason to not trust a word that goddamn snake utters. This is vindicated by the end of the game. IP, your earlier assessment is smart: grandiose "good ol' days" posturing.

If I can be permitted a real life analogy: who are the better swordsmen, samurai from feudal times or kenjutsu (NOT kendo) practitioners of the modern era? The answer is: too little data to go on. I do know that it depends on the individual. To give a general assessment is difficult for several reasons: 1) I wasn't around back then to see what the samurai were like in swordplay; 2) I don't have to be, because I know the "Swordmaster Samurai" idea is a myth, anyway; 3) personalities like Musashi and his exploits - if taken literally (which is problematic, but go with it...) - lead me to think samurai utterly sucked at swordplay; and 4) Kenjutsu practitioners not only have the old styles to learn via karta, but also bout practice mixed with evolving or innovative teachings. If the question was about historical masters vs modern day sensei, it would be different. But it's just a general question. How do you answer it?

So take that model based on real life, how the hell would she be able to honestly know if the Sith masters of legend would put the Jedi or Sith of the day to shame? Nevermind the fact you can't trust the source, but even if you take her opinion as honest you still don't know if she's right or wrong. It's not like saying 'who's the better duelist: Dooku or Yoda, based off AOTC?' because we have evidence to examine. The question is: who's the better swordsman, Achilles or Odysseus? Whoopsy, can't really know the answer to that, right?