Hayden instead of Sebastian- RotJ

lordmakalpine · Post by **lordmakalpine** » 2005-04-30 04:03pm

Maybe when Vader tried to heal himself in Shadows of the Empire it half-worked and made him look a little better. Just a theory.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2005-04-30 04:50pm

lordmakalpine wrote:Maybe when Vader tried to heal himself in Shadows of the Empire it half-worked and made him look a little better. Just a theory.

I think that at that point he was focusing on healing his damaged lungs, rather than his body overall (which is composed of a torso with shoulders and a head).

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2005-05-01 01:13am

Vympel wrote:I edited the title.

Anyway, I'm of two minds about the change- on the "that's crap!" side, it's yet more revisionism, which always rubs a fan the wrong way.

On the "that's cool" side- Sebastian Shaw, "normally", doesn't look anything like Hayden Christensen. One would think that a 43-year old Anakin Skywalker, as he obviously should be given what we know, should look much different. However, Hayden Christensen looking as he was when he was 22/23 years of age is a bit of a strech too.

Don't worry- I'm sure its just a place holder until the final modifications are put in and the "offical" version of the film is released.... 20 years from now.

Imperator Galacticus · Post by **Imperator Galacticus** » 2005-05-01 09:56am

With all sincerity, Hayden is hardly an impediment when it comes to the enjoyment of watching ROTJ. At first I found it mildly irrelevant and quite pointless.

But then after watching the movie a few more times, it seemed that Hayden, regardless of how his acting should have been in AOTC, struck a chord with me better than an old man whom I've never seen beforehand.

Indeed it even makes some type of sense, observing it from Lucas' point of view and forgetting about the marketing potential. Sebastian Anakin was the product of Darth Vader, the one who had helped the Emperor bring about a reign of terror and death over the Galaxy for decades. He is thus the tainted product of a malicious Dark Lord of the Sith.

Hayden Anakin on the other hand was the last truthful personage of the light side in the concept of the Force, and ergo the Force projected Hayden's image instead of that of the corrupted Sebastian's.

Nevertheless, I think the true reason that some of this board's members despise the Hayden image is because they hold in contempt AOTC to such a degree, and ergo think Hayden=AOTC, and thus ROTJ with Hayden is blasphemous when it really isn't that much of a big deal.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-01 10:00am

I edited your post, Lone_Prodigy- remember that some people don't want to know about the extent of Vader's injuries in RotS, even if Lucas has stated them before.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-05-01 02:43pm

It was annoying when I first saw it, now I think its cool. I like the little smile. They should have at least picked a shot where he's looking in the right direction though.

Lets just hope that GL, doesn't revise the scene so every fallen Jedi from the PT appears to salute Luke with their raised lightsabres. Shudder...

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-05-01 06:08pm

Imperator Galacticus wrote:With all sincerity, Hayden is hardly an impediment when it comes to the enjoyment of watching ROTJ. At first I found it mildly irrelevant and quite pointless.

But then after watching the movie a few more times, it seemed that Hayden, regardless of how his acting should have been in AOTC, struck a chord with me better than an old man whom I've never seen beforehand.

Indeed it even makes some type of sense, observing it from Lucas' point of view and forgetting about the marketing potential. Sebastian Anakin was the product of Darth Vader, the one who had helped the Emperor bring about a reign of terror and death over the Galaxy for decades. He is thus the tainted product of a malicious Dark Lord of the Sith.

Hayden Anakin on the other hand was the last truthful personage of the light side in the concept of the Force, and ergo the Force projected Hayden's image instead of that of the corrupted Sebastian's.

Nevertheless, I think the true reason that some of this board's members despise the Hayden image is because they hold in contempt AOTC to such a degree, and ergo think Hayden=AOTC, and thus ROTJ with Hayden is blasphemous when it really isn't that much of a big deal.

I'm going to have to disagree with the assertion that Anakin was a "truthful personage of the Light Side," Anakin was never a paragon of Jedi (or much of any) virtue. He's ambitious, lusts for power, can't control his fear or his anger, and resents authority. Hayden Christensen brings Anakin's fall even more sharply into focus durring that scene, rather than any thoughts of his return from the Dark Side. All we see of Christensen is Anakin's fall, certainly never even a hint of redemtion or hope for the charecter. Hayden's playing of Anakin is wholly tragic (not a comment on the quality of the acting, instead the type) in that all Hayden portrays are Anakin's fault so that his tragedy is inevitible. You can't say that such a charecter exemplified the lightside.

As for putting him into the OT with the excuse that "Anakin was in hybernation" I think that is total crap. It says that Anakin and Vader are seperate entities and Anakin is not responsible for his fall or the horrible crimes he commited. It is true he was horribly twisted, ad underwent massive psychological changes, but he was still himself, and must still carry the burden of what he did. Saying he was frozen at the moment of his fall is a cop out because it lacks all acountablity for his charecter, and removes any sense of tragedy from his fall as well. While it's up to debate how tragic it is to watch the fall of someone who is totaly unsympathetic anyway, it is even less compelling if said fall has no consequences for this charecter who we are supposed to care about.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-05-01 07:24pm

Even the silent, smiling Sebastian Shaw possessed more gravitas in those few seconds at the end of ROTJ than Hayden Christensen has demonstrated thus far. To me, Shaw is Anakin Skywalker.

And for the record, I actually preferred Clive Revill's voiceover as the Emperor in TESB to Ian McDiarmid's. Yeah, McDiarmid took over the part and made it his own, but I thought Revill's version sounded far more commanding and ominous.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-01 07:33pm

Galvatron wrote:And for the record, I actually preferred Clive Revill's voiceover as the Emperor in TESB than Ian McDiarmid's. Yeah, McDiarmid took over the part and made it his own, but I thought Revill's version sounded far more commanding and ominous.

I completely agree. I know the original version is inconsistant and that the new version is actually pretty good, but I still like the original so much more. It just gave the Emperor so much more mystery and worked as a good build up to his actual reveal in RotJ.

Other than the whole "Lapti Nek" thing with RotJ, the Emperor hologram from ESB is really the only revision I'm a purist about.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-01 07:38pm

I can see from a dramatic standpoint why it was inserted in the end. Gl has stated several times that he wants people to view the movies in succession and as such having the very end of the 6 films have Hayden's Anakin as the last time we see Anakin as opposed to Shaw's makes absolute sense to me.

However, realistically, the shot now has all the awkwardness of the Greedo shooting first scene because of the damned creepiness of the particular Hayden shot they used. Frankly you have Hayden working with you now for several years, you couldn't have him pose for you all of 2 minutes just for that particular scene? It looks horrid.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2005-05-02 02:38am

Vympel wrote:I edited your post, Lone_Prodigy- remember that some people don't want to know about the extent of Vader's injuries in RotS, even if Lucas has stated them before.

Thanks, it slipped my mind.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-02 02:42am

It's a stupid change. It implies that Vader was beyond redemption- that he didn't repent. It implies that once you go down the Dark Side, you can't come back- despite Vader obviously doing this, and despite this occuring in the EU many a time. Plus, if you haven't seen the Prequels, you have no clue who the fuck the gangly guy standing there with a smirk on his face is. Whereas even if you had only seen RotJ, it's immediately evident who Sebastian Shaw represents.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-05-02 05:18am

All we see of Christensen is Anakin's fall, certainly never even a hint of redemtion or hope for the charecter. Hayden's playing of Anakin is wholly tragic (not a comment on the quality of the acting, instead the type) in that all Hayden portrays are Anakin's fault so that his tragedy is inevitible. You can't say that such a charecter exemplified the lightside.

He didn´t examplify the Lightside, but I disagree that we only see his faults, the character messed up more severely in AOTC than Luke did in ESB, but the growth-process is similar and from what I´ve seen in the early parts of ROTS, he´s grown into quite a "cunning warrior". (Even Obi-Wan seems to praise and vouch for him before the fall.)

It says that Anakin and Vader are seperate entities and Anakin is not responsible for his fall or the horrible crimes he commited. It is true he was horribly twisted, ad underwent massive psychological changes, but he was still himself, and must still carry the burden of what he did.

I said it wrong, he is still responsible for his own fall and simply reverts to his former self in death, it doesn´t negate the part of his life as Vader.

Plus, if you haven't seen the Prequels, you have no clue who the fuck the gangly guy standing there with a smirk on his face is. Whereas even if you had only seen RotJ, it's immediately evident who Sebastian Shaw represents.

No, if you never saw the prequels, it wouldn´t matter who was standing there. We see behind the mask a disfigured face and a deep, raspy voice. We see, later on, the ghost of a tall man standing silent next to Yoda and Obi-Wan. Either way, most people would associate that figure with Anakin, no matter which actor was standing there. The added benefit with Hayden is that he plays the character in other movies. That´s it.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-05-02 10:25am

Call me crazy, but I'd rather see ILM fixing the horrid matt-boxes around every third TIE than pissing around with 'OMG must be Hayden.' Fix what's broken, THEN add your frills.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-02 12:06pm

Hayden didn't have to be there, but at the same time, Sebastian Shaw as a ghost didn't look like Anakin Skywalker at his death. So... I'm conflicted. Including Shaw as the ghost makes it look like who he was before he turned to the Dark Side, which doesn't gel with the prequals unfortunately. At the same time, Hayden looks... well, creepy.

I don't know. I think I want Shaw back in there, but I'm not totally opposed to Hayden. For the record, I consider Shaw to be Anakin. I know Hayden is a good actor. But it seems Lucas wanted Anakin to be a cute lil' boy then a cute lil' angsty teenager, then a cute lil' massmurdering psychopath. Well Hayden can act it, but I don't really care for the writing of it.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-05-02 02:23pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Other than the whole "Lapti Nek" thing with RotJ,

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-05-02 09:13pm

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Other than the whole "Lapti Nek" thing with RotJ,

The cringe-worthy SE dance number in Jabbas Palace.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-02 09:18pm

Specifically, the original "Lapti Nek" was replaced with the vastly inferior "Jedi Rocks."

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-05-02 09:22pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Specifically, the original "Lapti Nek" was replaced with the vastly inferior "Jedi Rocks."

Jedi Rocks is the new one? I thought it was the other way around. Whatever, I didn't much like either.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-02 09:29pm

You're not allowed to form opinions anymore.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-02 10:25pm

VT-16 wrote:
Plus, if you haven't seen the Prequels, you have no clue who the fuck the gangly guy standing there with a smirk on his face is. Whereas even if you had only seen RotJ, it's immediately evident who Sebastian Shaw represents.
No, if you never saw the prequels, it wouldn´t matter who was standing there. We see behind the mask a disfigured face and a deep, raspy voice. We see, later on, the ghost of a tall man standing silent next to Yoda and Obi-Wan. Either way, most people would associate that figure with Anakin, no matter which actor was standing there.

As a seven-year-old kid, who hadn't seen the prequels? No, I think not.

I am very lenient in my bitchiness. There are a scant few things that I didn't want fucked with/want restored. The rest of the changes, even if they irk me, can remain:

-Sebastian Shaw as Anakin.
-No Jedi Rock. Bring back the original- if you want it different, then have it re-arranged by Williams.
-Changing Luke and Vader's dialouge in a couple places in ESB.
-The Sarlacc.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-02 10:29pm

I think even a child, at least one that can actually fucking pay attention to a movie enough to follow what's going on (not one that asks "mommy, what's that? Who's that? Why is he so mean to him?") coud have enough deductive reasoning to figure out that even Hayden was Anakin/Vader in that scene.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-05-03 06:48pm

As a seven-year-old kid, who hadn't seen the prequels? No, I think not.

Obi-Wan dies ==> Turns into ghost

Yoda dies ==> Turns into ghost

Vader dies ==> New ghost next to Obi-Wan and Yoda = ?

I don´t think so. Kids are stupid, but they´re not THAT stupid.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-05-03 06:56pm

He can add all the CGI dewbacks he wants, but GL should get hit with a cattle prod for every FRAME of narrative content he changed from the OT ....

The pure commercial sliminess of only offering the modded versions on DVD instead of the originals tells me that we'll get a "Classic" box-set version within the next 10 years to satisfy fans who loved the originals AS-IS when I saw them in the theater .... and damned if I'll buy 'em.

/rant

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-05-03 08:02pm

Actually, me and my movie-nut mother liked it better, due to Hayden having a more Vader-like build than the other actor. He never sat right with her because of that.

What can I say, we're visual people.