Neon Genesis Evangelion

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Yogi wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Because within the TV ending, Shinji is still within the Human Instrumentality - that is, the bullshit reality he rejected in the End of Evangelion. It's an empty reality, because it is humanity dehumanized - the desire to want to be our own individual selves, which often involves rejecting others, is what makes us human. There is no happiness in the movie ending because it's actually realistic, and it wants to drive home the message of the series - life sucks sometimes, people will reject you, but that's just an inevitable part of the human experience and it's up to you to overcome that and live with it. When contrasted with the surreal, virtually drug-induced happiness of the TV ending, it's clear that the movie ending is the proper one, and the most in sync with the series as a whole.
Eh?
TV Ending: Shinji sees how everyone thinks of him. He is then shown three worlds, one in which he is completely alone but has ultimate control, a porld in which he has almost ultimate control but his father has decided which way was down, an a world much like his own in which is is with everyone else, but has comparatively little control over his life. He is then given a choice, reject instrumtality and be apart from everyone else, but omnipotent in his world, or accept it, accept the fact that you have to deal with others, but live with them anyway. In addition, in the TV ending, there was NO evidence that Shinji was deciding the fate of humankind, just his own fate.
Yes, and Shinji rejects the hard realities of life and chooses to go with the false reality of the Instrumentality, a cheap cop-out. Coward.
Movie: Throughout the first half of the movie, Shinji is more deserving of a slap than at any other point in the series. Instead of Shinji the confused, lost, and hurt child, we have Shinji the doll, completely unwilling to interact with the world around him. During Instrumentality, Shinji is shown scenes from his past which shows how he is. Various forms of Misato, Rei, and Asuka try to communicate with him. His only reaction is to reject and/or strangle them. In the end, he decides that he would rather suffer with his AT field up than have to interact with the rest of humanity, so he destroys instrumentality good, and sends his mother to orbit Earth alone for the next how many millions of years. He then strangles Asuka, or rather, a cold lifeless copy of Asuka who ultimatly would be completely passive and won't hurt him like the real Asuka would.
Consider what Shinji has just been through; he crushed the body of the only person to ever say "I like you" to him, and Asuka, the one person who he thinks can help him, is in a coma. Cut the kid some slack.

As I said, Instrumentality is just a cheap way for Shinji to run away from reality; it frees him from actually having to make attempts to interact people and risk rejection, because everything is one. The existence of the individual self is basically denied; how can you interact with people if you aren't really there?

Shinji strangles Asuka not out of hatred, but to make sure he is not still within the Complementation. He wanted to feel the sting of rejection of again, and she does reject him in disgust ("I feel sick.") This is confirmed by the Eva collectible trading card game, which is relatively high-level Eva canon.
So to summerise, the ending of the TV series had Shinji's friends congratulating him, while the ending of the Movie has him both "killing" Rei (the giant half-broken smiling face in the background) and Asuka (strangulation). This is why I think the Movie ending was just Anno turning the nhilism knob to "overdrive".
He doesn't really kill Rei, that giant wasn't exactly Rei, it merely took the form of Rei. And yes, the TV ending is all peachy and happy, what with all Shinji's "friends" congratulating and praising him even though he didn't really deserve it. But that's what Shinji always wanted; love and acceptance without having to give back anything thing in return. That's what Kaoru gave him, and that's what the Instrumentality gave him. And that's why he ultimately rejects it, in the movie. Because ultimately, false happiness was less important to Shinji than not running away.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Ah. I just it would have been quicker to just post the EVA Otaku FAQ.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Indeed.

And official facts overrides personal opinions.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
Rathark
Padawan Learner
Posts: 476
Joined: 2002-07-10 11:43pm
Location: Not here.

Post by Rathark »

I have only seen a few episodes of Evangelion, but that includes the final TV episode and the End of Eva. I have one question.

If the Instrumentality would destroy human individuality, then it would make sense for Shinji to return things to normal. The problem is, he doesn't do that either. He apparently creates a third option where everyone is still seperate, but also dead / disembodied. What good could come from that? Would this create a new opportunity for "culture" or "progress", a new way to interact while retaining one's individuality? A form of "virtual reality"? Unless it provides the opportunity for change and diversity, then I fail to see how this could be much better than Instrumentality.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

) Ok, Shinji and Asuka didn't "evolve into a higher existence"... but what about everyone else?

A) No one evolved into anything.

When Shinji refused to merge w/ Lillith the process of Human Complement Project was interrupted and the souls of mankind returned to the earth. Yui tells Shinji not to worry because "All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living."
With this in mind it is reasonable to presume that eventually everyone will return to the way they were prior to the events of Third Impact and The Human Complement Project.

On the other hand - there is no proof that everyone will return. It is just as reasonable, then, to presume that Shinji and Asuka are indeed the only survivors of Third Impact/Human Complement Project. However, in my personal opinion, this is somewhat too downbeat and negative. And too... final.

The Eva Cardass Masters card states:
"In the sea of LCL, Shinji wished for a world with other people. He desired to meet them again, even if it meant he would be hurt
and betrayed. And just as he had hoped/wanted, Asuka was present in the new world. Only Asuka was there beside him.
The girl whom he had hurt, and who had been hurt by him. But even so, she was the one he had hoped/wished for...."

The End of Evangelion ends on the perfect note at the perfect moment. Indeed, we are left uncertain about the future of Shinji, Asuka and the others - but this is entirely appropriate. We are as uncertain about their future as Shinji and Asuka are. It matters not how they got there, or where they go from here. They are alive. And that's all that counts in the end.
Q) Mankind can re-form after Shinji rejects Human Complement Project, right? Well what about those who died before HCP was initiated (Misato, Ritsuko and Asuka

A) There is a chance that Misato and the others could reform because a) Rei was already with them when they died and may have collected their souls even before HCP began (the ghostly images of Rei that hover above Misato and Ritsuko's as they die; which is absent from Asuka's "death") b) During HCP Rei appears to all the dead bodies in NERV who died and they turn into LCL. That included Misato and Ritsuko; and yet, not Asuka...

Personally, I don't like the idea of them all returning - but I have nothing against it.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
Rathark
Padawan Learner
Posts: 476
Joined: 2002-07-10 11:43pm
Location: Not here.

Post by Rathark »

Thanks, Spanky. I just read the website immediately after posting (I'm always this absent minded), but thanks anyway.

It would certainly be preferable if humans return to their individual selves and continue to progress the way they choose - as a diversity of individuals rather than one single conformist being. It is the opportunity for choice and progress that is most important.
Rathark
Padawan Learner
Posts: 476
Joined: 2002-07-10 11:43pm
Location: Not here.

Post by Rathark »

I was wondering if anyone would like to discuss similarities between the Third Impact and two existing theories of future progress / eschatology. One is the Technological Singularity, supposed to take place some time this century. Anders Sansberg (a fellow Orion's Arm member, so be nice to him :P ) discusses this on his website here:

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/

Another theoretical future event is the Omega Point, supposed to take place billions of years from now (at the end of the universe, perhaps during a technologically induced Big Crunch). The theory was first proposed by Jesuit scholar Tielhard de Chardin, but only on a global scale. Frank Tipler, in his 1990's book The Physics of Immortality, proposes an Omega Point on a cosmic scale. The idea has been rejected by both scientists and theologians, but as pure speculation it is quite fascinating. Anders discusses it on his website here:

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/

I don't have the time to go into any further detail right now.

Any comments?
User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

*Pulls out the actual shows to re-watch certain scenes*

Running away?

In the movie, the thought of having to actually spend time together, INTERACT with other people sends Shinji running headlong in the opposite direction. The entire movie has Shinji practically screaming "I want to be alone!" and that's what he chooses in the end. He creates a world based on his view of other people and what other people think of him. Of course, it's as distorted as hell, since Shinji's grip on reality in the movie is tenuous at best. So, he decides to have enerything go back to the way it is. He turns around and runs.

The TV ending has him saying "I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! I am worth living here!" Besides, the world Shinji sees is NOT perfect as in perfect. He gets bitched out by Asuka, gets dragged out of bed by Asuka, gets slapped out by Asuka twice, presumably has to skip breakfast, has to run to class, gets his head smashed by Rei, bitched out by Rei, gets stuck in the middle of a class argument in the 5 min we see of him The alternative was the "false paradise" in which he could create anything he wanted and nothing would ever hurt him. This world is not perfect, though it IS better than what he had (not really a fair comparison, almost ANYTHING is better than what he had).

Re: Official facts vs. Personal opinion
I never debated what was the "true" ending, only which ending was supposed to be happy. I never debated that Shinji DID accept Human Complementation. I never debated that the final scene was not reality, nor was not on earth.

So, for the FAQ, the section that deals with which ending was "happy" begins with the statement "In my view" How am I going up against "official facts" again?
User avatar
Yogi
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2163
Joined: 2002-08-22 03:53pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Post by Yogi »

BTW, I REALLY need to do research for my essay around *looks at watch* a HELL of a long time ago. Sorry, but I can't stay to debate. I'll check in tomorrow though.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

I just thought of something:

It'd be interesting to determine both the maximum and minimum size Lilith is in relation to the Earth in End of Eva, also determining an average.

Basically: it'd be interesting to know how big Lilith is in EoE, and also how big she would be if she was at full height (done by comparing her to Rei).

There are several shots where this would be possible, where we see the curvature of the Earth (growing her wings, the tilt-up while collecting souls, when Shinji cuts her neck, etc...)

I have the resources, but I don't know about the math skills.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Lord of the Farce
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2198
Joined: 2002-08-06 10:49am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by Lord of the Farce »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I just thought of something:

It'd be interesting to determine both the maximum and minimum size Lilith is in relation to the Earth in End of Eva, also determining an average.

Basically: it'd be interesting to know how big Lilith is in EoE, and also how big she would be if she was at full height (done by comparing her to Rei).
*Pauses as a "big vagina" joke suddenly flashes through mind*... :shock:


:lol:
"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Huh?
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Utsanomiko
The Legend Rado Tharadus
Posts: 5079
Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world

Post by Utsanomiko »

Kids these days.

It's any excuse to talk about vaginas, Spanky.

We get it, Lor of the Farce; women have vaganias! But thanks for the info! :P

Anywho, Shinji is just confused and unloved, and he's not all that bad, compared to just how screwed up Asuka is. The only thing that kept her from totally falling apart was thinking she was the best at everything she did, and acted like an ass to everyone. I found her quite annoying most of the time (especially in Japanese, god the smugness just drips from her syllables). Toji was right; "good thing the pictures don't show off her personality."
By His Word...
User avatar
Larz
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 1638
Joined: 2002-09-11 04:28pm
Location: A superimposed state between home and work.

Post by Larz »

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I just thought of something:

It'd be interesting to determine both the maximum and minimum size Lilith is in relation to the Earth in End of Eva, also determining an average.

Basically: it'd be interesting to know how big Lilith is in EoE, and also how big she would be if she was at full height (done by comparing her to Rei).
*Pauses as a "big vagina" joke suddenly flashes through mind*... :shock:


:lol:
... don't think, just, don't...
"Once again we wanted our heroes to be simple, grizzled everymen with nothing to lose; one foot in the grave, the other wrapped in an American flag and lodged firmly in a terrorist's asshole."


Brotherhood of the Monkey: Nonchalant Disgruntled Monkey
Justice League
Post Reply