ST Galaxy vs Star Destroyers

[navy_seal55]

Scenario:

Q transports EVERY single combat capable ship in the Star Trek Galaxy (our milkyway galaxy) to the center of the Galaxy (where that super black hole is). He tells them all that within the week a 500 Star Destroyer Expedition force will come pouring out of the black hole.

Q will instantly disable their hyperdrives so they cant hit the Trek homeworlds.
and Q has assured that there will be no revolts due to the lack of military ships in their respective territories.

If they are sucessful Q will collapse the Blackhole preventing any imperials from ever coming again and will transport the remaining Trek ships back to where they came from.
If they fail, then w/e, resist if you can.

Would Trek score a Phyrric victory or would the ISDs swat them out?

note: ISDs have no tie complements.
No cheap stuff like time travel
This is a clean fight, the Treks cant board imperial ships and Imperials cant board Trek ships

[omegaLancer]

500 ISD are over kill, maybe 5 would be a better match...

[Captain Cyran]

500 ISD are over kill, maybe 5 would be a better match...

Remember that this is EVERY war capable ship in Star Trek. In nothing else they're going to have to start rotating gunners out once the current ones get exhausted from constant firing.

Personally I think that Star Trek can pull this off by sheer numbers, we're dealing with a LOT of ships here, even with only a fraction of that being able to fire that's a lot of energy coming in, not only that I'm sure kamikaze would be adopted if somehow the kill ratio was in favor of Star Wars.

I am assuming however, that the various races are also forced by Q to work together in this? If they're not it's quite possible that many factions would realize what they can gain from an alliance with the Imperials and turn on the others.

[Drooling Iguana]

Well, if the Star Destroyers are stuck at STL, the Trek ships can just warp in, fire off a few photon torpedoes, and then warp out before the ISD's turbolaser bolts can reach them. Being without hyperdrive puts them at a serious disadvantage.

[omegaLancer]

Well, if the Star Destroyers are stuck at STL, the Trek ships can just warp in, fire off a few photon torpedoes, and then warp out before the ISD's turbolaser bolts can reach them. Being without hyperdrive puts them at a serious disadvantage.

Let see warp in, while being tracked all the time. the max range of photon torpedoe is what 1 light sec. Take 4 seconds to go to warp, that means that turbolaser only need a a second or two to obtain a lock and vaporize the offending craft....

Better for the ship to ram an ISD, this tactic only going provide a test of gunner skills....

[Stark]

Problem is, unless the ST guys have excellent coordination - something they have not displayed - they will simply be unable to put enough fire on a ship to spike it's shielding. If the Imps see them coming (and since they can spot things at the edge of system in real time, this seems likely) they will just put a barrage of turbolaser fire into their path, destroying them all.

[Kane Starkiller]

the max range of photon torpedoe is what 1 light sec. Take 4 seconds to go to warp, that means that turbolaser only need a a second or two to obtain a lock and vaporize the offending craft....

Light seconds? Say what?
Fed ships always engage their targets at few 100m to few km ranges unless they are attacking something really big like
a planet and even then they engage at a few thousand km.
The same goes for Empire ships. A 10km/s moving turbolaser would need over 8 hours to travel a distance of 1 light second.

Any combat between Imps and Feds will look like battle of Endor which of course will mean the Feds dying on short order.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Light seconds? Say what?
Fed ships always engage their targets at few 100m to few km ranges unless they are attacking something really big like
a planet and even then they engage at a few thousand km.
The same goes for Empire ships. A 10km/s moving turbolaser would need over 8 hours to travel a distance of 1 light second.

Any combat between Imps and Feds will look like battle of Endor which of course will mean the Feds dying on short order.

The max observed range for Star Trek photons was near one light second. Reference TNG "The Wounded"

A Nebula class starship destroyed two Cardassian warships at that range.

[Kane Starkiller]

The max observed range for Star Trek photons was near one light second. Reference TNG "The Wounded"

A Nebula class starship destroyed two Cardassian warships at that range.

Ah yes I forgot abou that. Well that would give the Feds an initial range advantage until the battle devolves into Sacrifice of Angels/Endor engagement.

[dragon]

The max observed range for Star Trek photons was near one light second. Reference TNG "The Wounded"

A Nebula class starship destroyed two Cardassian warships at that range.

Ah yes I forgot abou that. Well that would give the Feds an initial range advantage until the battle devolves into Sacrifice of Angels/Endor engagement.

Depends on the effect of SW ECM on the torps. Granted those ships are pretty big targets. Also there was one episode where they used a class 9 probe to transport a person. I wonder if they could use probes, torp even shuttles loaded with AM to travel at warp and then drop to impuse right on top of the SW ships before they have a chance to react. Granted that would require tactics on the part of ST captains wwhich they are short on.

[Zor]

Is Annorax's starship included? Because if so he will just Erase them from history and thats the end of that.

Zor

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The max observed range for Star Trek photons was near one light second. Reference TNG "The Wounded"

Actually, you didn't observe that. That was a computer screen. It had no numerical scale on it. The range was, as typical of long ranges (admittedly for both Trek and Wars), completely provided by dialogue.

In any case, this is a massive battle, not a long range skirmish. Chances are, Trek would be fighting like the close range shit in Sacrifice of Angels.

If you want to use written ranges, we can go up to ten light minutes, all thanks to Saxton

[Kane Starkiller]

Damn I didn't read the opening post right. I thought that only Federation ships were on the blockade not every Milky Way ship.
The trouble is we don't know how many races and ships are in the entire galaxy since the Federation has charted only about 11%.

If you want to use written ranges, we can go up to ten light minutes, all thanks to Saxton

At 10km/s turbolaser speed? It would only take about 200 days for a turbolase to reach it's target.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

At 10km/s turbolaser speed? It would only take about 200 days for a turbolase to reach it's target.

Now, that 10km/s thing you see (which seems to be variable velocity) is a tracer. The real "meat" of the beam can't be seen. It moves at C

[Alyeska]

the max range of photon torpedoe is what 1 light sec. Take 4 seconds to go to warp, that means that turbolaser only need a a second or two to obtain a lock and vaporize the offending craft....

Light seconds? Say what?
Fed ships always engage their targets at few 100m to few km ranges unless they are attacking something really big like
a planet and even then they engage at a few thousand km.
The same goes for Empire ships. A 10km/s moving turbolaser would need over 8 hours to travel a distance of 1 light second.

Any combat between Imps and Feds will look like battle of Endor which of course will mean the Feds dying on short order.

Federation ships have fired on BVR targets on mutliple ocassions. This is a range of several hundred KM minimum.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Normally, the Trek ships will all be fragged... However, if those petaton-range warp-capable intelligent Druoda warheads are around, this is gonna get a whole lot messier. Second, Annorax's ship is by all counts a Deus Ex Machina, immune to all conventional weapons and able to erase anything from the timeline with just a point and shoot.

[Kane Starkiller]

Now, that 10km/s thing you see (which seems to be variable velocity) is a tracer. The real "meat" of the beam can't be seen. It moves at C

Riiight.
Which is why the damage effects on the target are visible in the same frame as the turbolaser is launched. Oh wait they aren't.

Federation ships have fired on BVR targets on mutliple ocassions. This is a range of several hundred KM minimum.

Yes Kamakazie Sith already pointed out the Wounded example. Like I said an initial range advantage for the Feds until the battle devolves into SoA/Endor groove.

[Robert Walper]

Jem Hadar ramming attacks should be a bitch for even Imperial warships...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Riiight.
Which is why the damage effects on the target are visible in the same frame as the turbolaser is launched. Oh wait they aren't.

Apparently, they are generally timed so the maximum intensity occurs as the bolt hits. It provides for a nice tracer. However, there are times when they don't line up the bolts completely, so occasionally the mainforce hits before the bolt, causing asteroids to vaporize just before the bolt hits.

[Kane Starkiller]

Apparently, they are generally timed so the maximum intensity occurs as the bolt hits.

Well I'm no Sun Tzu but that just doesn't make any sense. If you have the ability to hit a target at 300,000km/s you use it.

However, there are times when they don't line up the bolts completely, so occasionally the mainforce hits before the bolt, causing asteroids to vaporize just before the bolt hits.

Hitting slightly before the bolt arrives is hardly any evidence for lightspeed turbolasers.

[Lord Revan]

Hitting slightly before the bolt arrives is hardly any evidence for lightspeed turbolasers.

it doesn't disprove it either as AOTC:ICS states that TLs are lightspeed weapons.

[Kane Starkiller]

it doesn't disprove it either as AOTC:ICS states that TLs are lightspeed weapons.

Oh I'm afraid it does.
Here are a few asteroid scenes:
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/turbo2_0.jpg
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/turbo4_0.jpg
In both of them the turbolaser is almost hitting the asteroids and no damage is visible.
Here is the asteroid scene in which the asteroid is melted before the turbolaser reaches it.
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/turbo1_3.jpg
As you can see the asteroid is still not melting even though it should have started if the beam is really travelling anything close to the speed of light.

Here is a scene from the ROTJ:
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/turbor_0.jpg
Once again the turbolaser bolt is almost upon the ISD and no damage is visible on the Star Destroyer. Where is the invisible lightspeed beam?

Here are a few scenes from the TPM:
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/droid2_0.jpg
+http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/droid3_1.jpg
Notice that once again no damage is applied to the astrodroids until the visible turbolaser bolt strikes the droids.

There is no "lightspeed invisible" beam anywhere in the films.

And finally here is a qoute from this very page.
Link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html

However, official interpretations are not as important as direct observations, and from direct observation of the canon films, we know the following with absolute certainty:
.
.
.
4.The visible portion of a turbolaser bolt travels at distinctly subluminal speed even in vacuum. Since light travels at c in vacuum, the bolts can't be lasers.
5.The invisible portion of the bolt outraces the visible portion by a miniscule margin if at all, so it also cannot be a laser.

Emphasis mine.

[Lord of the Farce]

Apparently, they are generally timed so the maximum intensity occurs as the bolt hits.

Well I'm no Sun Tzu but that just doesn't make any sense. If you have the ability to hit a target at 300,000km/s you use it.

I'm not an under- or a post-grad science student, but I can tell you that firing a weapon requires energy, and generates heat that must be dealt with. So if you can save resources and avoid building by only turning up the power on a sure hit (supported by recent evidence and analysis that the visible portion can change course after being fired), why do otherwise?

However, there are times when they don't line up the bolts completely, so occasionally the mainforce hits before the bolt, causing asteroids to vaporize just before the bolt hits.

Hitting slightly before the bolt arrives is hardly any evidence for lightspeed turbolasers.

[/quote]
It is evidence, however, that the visible bolt is not the only mechanism at work.

[Kane Starkiller]

So if you can save resources and avoid building by only turning up the power on a sure hit (supported by recent evidence and analysis that the visible portion can change course after being fired), why do otherwise?

Only turning up the power on a sure hit? How can they anticipate a "sure hit". Why would you even fire unless you think you can score a hit?

but I can tell you that firing a weapon requires energy, and generates heat that must be dealt with.

Only the speed of visible turbolaser part appears to be realted with it's energy.
From what I know the ICS claims that invisible part of the turbolaser always travels at the speed of light.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The max observed range for Star Trek photons was near one light second. Reference TNG "The Wounded"

Actually, you didn't observe that. That was a computer screen. It had no numerical scale on it. The range was, as typical of long ranges (admittedly for both Trek and Wars), completely provided by dialogue.

In any case, this is a massive battle, not a long range skirmish. Chances are, Trek would be fighting like the close range shit in Sacrifice of Angels.

If you want to use written ranges, we can go up to ten light minutes, all thanks to Saxton

When I said observe I was thinking of the information displayed on the tactical screen. However, you're right. We didn't observe the actual battle, we observed a tactical screen supported by dialogue.

I'm afraid I also have to say that Kane has a good point about c turbolasers. If they did move that fast you'd see the effects of the weapon long before the tracer got there.