Riot Control (GRAPHICS HEAVY)

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-19 12:14am

Since the previous thread was getting a bit off topic, here's a new one:

Was the Italian cop justified in wasting "Carlos"?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-19 12:16am

I hate protestors.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-19 12:16am

That seems likely. It looks like "Carlos" was right on top of him, less than 6 feet away and charging. That's a perfectly legitimate self-defense situation; you can't let it go hand-to-hand.

If he was 60 feet away, it would be a little different.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-19 12:18am

Darth Wong wrote:That seems likely. It looks like "Carlos" was right on top of him, less than 6 feet away and charging. That's a perfectly legitimate self-defense situation; you can't let it go hand-to-hand.

If he was 60 feet away, it would be a little different.

Please note the very heavy bludgeoning weapon in his hands.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-11-19 12:20am

Yes, he was justified. That guy was ready to smash his head.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-19 12:24am

IIRC at least one officer in the jeep was already incapacitated when the shot was fired. Its was completely justified, and is seems that firing earlier would have been as well.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-19 12:25am

In this instance I belive the shooting was justified. The police as clear reason to believe he wanted to do bodily harm to them.

I hate protestors.

Not all protesters are the same. I hate these WTO protester types. That doesnt mean there is never a valid time and place for protest or civil disobedience.

Besides, I consider these guys to fall into the definition of rioters and not protestors.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-19 12:31am

Looks like it. I'd cap a guy who was about to hit me with one of those.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2002-11-19 12:39am

shooting him was one thing, running him over with the car was another and uncalled for.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-19 12:41am

Hyperion wrote:shooting him was one thing, running him over with the car was another and uncalled for.

He was dead by that point, and they had no other choice but to run him
over to get out of DODGE right fuckin now...

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-11-19 12:44am

Hyperion,

Agreed, although it's possible that the cops either panicked or perhaps they were just looking to put some distance between them and the crowd.

XPViking

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-19 12:48am

Agreed, although it's possible that the cops either panicked or perhaps they were just looking to put some distance between them and the crowd.

Just looking at the still photos we also cant be sure of the timing. The driver of the jeep might not have realized the dead guy was even there. Mabye he was backing up as the cop in the back shot the protester.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-19 12:51am

That guy was dead before the bullet finished exiting. Better the police back over him then get forced into a situation where they have to shoot someone else.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2002-11-19 01:18am

Sea Skimmer wrote:That guy was dead before the bullet finished exiting. Better the police back over him then get forced into a situation where they have to shoot someone else.

if indeed he was dead at that point then it makes my point moot.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-19 01:19am

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-19 01:27am

Hyperion wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:That guy was dead before the bullet finished exiting. Better the police back over him then get forced into a situation where they have to shoot someone else.
if indeed he was dead at that point then it makes my point moot.

At the angle the bullet appears to have entered it would have wiped out much of his brain. Looks like it entered on his left side above and slightly behind the ye and likely exited out the right back of his skull. That takes it right through some rather important things. Chances are they shot him with a FMJ, typical of Euro police forces. Not much of a damage path, but enough to kill him instantly in this case.

Even if he wasn't dead, I don't have sympathy. Most of these hard-core anarchists should be rounded up and put to work on the third world draining swamps.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-19 01:28am

If you're going to be an idiot and go after a guy with a gun with a weapon, prepare to be shot.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-19 01:33am

I've previously stated that the cop in that instance was justified in his use of force. The protestor was a VERY short distance away, had him cornered and was armed with a weapon that would at the very least cause grievous bodily harm.

A troop of soldiers shooting at dispersing protestors 60 ft away however...

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-11-19 01:42am

Well... I think it was justified, but the cop could've tried to aim elsewhere, you know? I don't know what calibre European pistols are, but it is my understanding that they are usually smaller than American ones... Still, a chest shot should've been enough to disable the guy.

Damaramu · Post by **Damaramu** » 2002-11-19 01:47am

You know at this point, Carlos was probably thinking something to the effect of: "Oh shit. This was a bad idea."

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-19 02:05am

Exonerate wrote:Well... I think it was justified, but the cop could've tried to aim elsewhere, you know? I don't know what calibre European pistols are, but it is my understanding that they are usually smaller than American ones... Still, a chest shot should've been enough to disable the guy.

When you life is in danger, which it certainly was, you shoot to kill not to wound. A chest shot at the ranges and angled involved would have been either fatal within a minute, or have been totally ineffective and left the person still able to finish heaving the fire extinguisher before running away in a damn lot of pain.

You cannot reasonably fault this officer in any way.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2002-11-19 02:14am

btw, for the record, i have no problems with the cop's actions, i would have done the same in his case.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-19 02:26am

Exonerate wrote:Well... I think it was justified, but the cop could've tried to aim elsewhere, you know? I don't know what calibre European pistols are, but it is my understanding that they are usually smaller than American ones... Still, a chest shot should've been enough to disable the guy.

Looks to me like the extinguisher and tire were in the way, and the only open target was the guy's head.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-19 02:34am

XaLEv wrote:
Exonerate wrote:Well... I think it was justified, but the cop could've tried to aim elsewhere, you know? I don't know what calibre European pistols are, but it is my understanding that they are usually smaller than American ones... Still, a chest shot should've been enough to disable the guy.
Looks to me like the extinguisher and tire were in the way, and the only open target was the guy's head.

Hmm. A near to the chest shot might also not be a good idea if it hit the fire extinguisher. Anybody know what would happen? Ricochet or explosion or just a bad leak?

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-11-19 02:41am

Carlos would've been a damn pencil when I got done with him.