ST Galaxy vs Star Destroyers

[Lord Revan]

perhaps, but he still doesn't have enough eveidence to call the ROTS:ICS range BS (we have seen TL bolt (the visible part) move at different speeds).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

As you can see the asteroid is still not melting even though it should have started if the beam is really travelling anything close to the speed of light.

Already went all over it. Usually the synchro mechanism works. What's so hard to understand about it?

The page was last updated very slightly preceding the ICS (about one month or so before the book came out). Anyway, after it came out, half of SDN also vomited on the ground in disbelief (when Connor discussed this with me back then, I was also shocked), and yes, trust me, shots like those have all been done before.

If you do the ramp-up theory, it would have much the same visible result as #4, and you don't have an extra contradiction with official (a big plus). The tracer also explains a few things like how sometimes the beam can apparently turn in midflight (the system correcting).

Anyway, basically the damaging portion can be massive or massless. Eventually, (after a blistering away of physics) it was decided that the massless explanation was slightly less problematic. One may also note that Wong proposed as a theory:

The bolts are composed of massless particles which move at subluminal speed, even though no such particle has ever been observed or even theorized to exist. Some of these particles would presumably radiate light in the visible spectrum while others would radiate light well out of the visible spectrum. The visible gas is most likely a simple "tracer", and it is generated through an entirely separate mechanism in the cannon, so a damaged or poorly maintained cannon might fail to properly synchronize the visible and invisible portions of the bolt, hence causing the rare "preceding damage" effect. However, this wouldn't explain the fact that excess visible gas is affected by gravity when it leaks from the gun barrels (see the picture at the top of this page).

Basically, what Saxton's theory went like, but of course a massless particle can't really be subluminal. In fact, relativity implies that would be impossible (even mathematically). Yet it can't be massive and slow, because the arcing of the beams are apparently inadequate for that.

But if there was a ramp-up beam, we can meet make the massless particles keep their original speed. And really, a ramp-up is a lot more plausible in a scientific sense than a mysterious subluminal massless particle ...

It had a few nice bonuses too, like the ability to rationalize why no matter what the range, the bolt transit time seems the same, without resorting to a wierd variable speed choice. That's how it eventually became the accepted theory. The fact that it is good against Trekkies who keep bitching about our slow weapons, undoubtedly, was icing on the cake.

Only turning up the power on a sure hit? How can they anticipate a "sure hit". Why would you even fire unless you think you can score a hit?

Think of a ranging machine gun attached to some weapons. The ranging machine gun is to verify the range estimate and allow for correction (useful in ECM). Except with a variable power weapon, the ranging shots can be from the same gun as the real shot.

Besides, the theory says that this is making a virtue out of necessity anyway. The TL's properties apparently require this ramp-up and there must be that bolt anyway, so they might as well use it for something.
-------------------------------------------------
By the way, if you want to use that "visible weapon speed" argument, you'd lose. Photon torpedoes when they can be seen also crawl along the screen at a few hundred meters per second (you can actually see their transit in those WVR actions), and I don't think torpedoes have a invisible "dodge". Should I thus conclude that the Wounded example involved playback time compression (perfectly conceivable for a computer playback), and the torpedoes took a day to travel the distance? It would also explain why this is not an often used ability!

[Lord of the Farce]

And finally here is a qoute from this very page.
Link: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html

However, official interpretations are not as important as direct observations, and from direct observation of the canon films, we know the following with absolute certainty:
-snip
4.The visible portion of a turbolaser bolt travels at distinctly subluminal speed even in vacuum. Since light travels at c in vacuum, the bolts can't be lasers.
5.The invisible portion of the bolt outraces the visible portion by a miniscule margin if at all, so it also cannot be a laser.

Emphasis mine.

So you're using observation and analysis from a webpage that was last updated prior to the information in AOTC:ICS was made available - and prior to much of the indepth analysis which came after the release of the SW Trilogy DVDs - as your trump card?

Only turning up the power on a sure hit? How can they anticipate a "sure hit".

By having targeting sensors which coordinates with the visible bolt, maybe?

Why would you even fire unless you think you can score a hit?

So you have a course changing tracer bolt assisting your targetting?

Only the speed of visible turbolaser part appears to be realted with it's energy.

Except for asteroids that gets vaped well before the visible part makes contact.

From what I know the ICS claims that invisible part of the turbolaser always travels at the speed of light.

So only low levels of energy is pumped out until the targetting sensor inform the weapon to turn up the output.

[Kane Starkiller]

You seem to say that visible and invisible part's of the turbolaser are two completely different mechanisms. So what is the purpose of the visible beam? To announce to the enemy that it's about to be hit?
You call the visible beam a tracer. But from what I understand it's not a tracer at all. It is fired before the invisible beam, then a gunner waits until the beam hits or almost hits a target and then it fires another invisible beam that travels at the speed of light.
That doesn't make any sense.

It had a few nice bonuses too, like the ability to rationalize why no matter what the range, the bolt transit time seems the same, without resorting to a wierd variable speed choice. That's how it eventually became the accepted theory.

Not true.
The transit time of the bolts fired from the Star Destroyer in ANH was about 4 frames.
The transit time of bolts fired from ISD in ESB towards the asteroids lasted about 5-7 frames.
The transit time of bolts fired from SSD to medical frigate and back lasted 9-11frames.

Think of a ranging machine gun attached to some weapons. The ranging machine gun is to verify the range estimate and allow for correction (useful in ECM). Except with a variable power weapon, the ranging shots can be from the same gun as the real shot.

So why don't they use a low powered laser beam instead of a slow ass turbolaser bolt. Better yet why don't they use a hyperspeed ranging weapon beacuse we know that their hyper-communication interferes with real space objects like asteroids.

Besides, the theory says that this is making a virtue out of necessity anyway. The TL's properties apparently require this ramp-up and there must be that bolt anyway, so they might as well use it for something.

Why must a visible bolt be present if it is not the one carrying energy. Once again to use a slow ass turbolaser weapons as a targeting and ranging help is ridiculous.

By the way, if you want to use that "visible weapon speed" argument, you'd lose. Photon torpedoes when they can be seen also crawl along the screen at a few hundred meters per second (you can actually see their transit in those WVR actions), and I don't think torpedoes have a invisible "dodge". Should I thus conclude that the Wounded example involved playback time compression (perfectly conceivable for a computer playback), and the torpedoes took a day to travel the distance? It would also explain why this is not an often used ability!

First let me say that I think that Empire would crush the Federation so there is really no need for you to scare me with slow Fed weapons. I know they are slow. The trouble is the Imperial are no faster either.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

If we're on the subject of c-propagating turbolasers, there's something that's been bugging me about them.

The Death Star's turbolasers in ANH recoiled when the tracer was fired, not when it hit. Wouldn't the recoil occur when the most energy is released? How is that rationalized with the lightspeed theory?

I don't mean to dogpile on to this tangent, but this is the first time I've seen a good opportunity to ask.

[Kane Starkiller]

The Death Star's turbolasers in ANH recoiled when the tracer was fired, not when it hit.

The same is true for Trade Federation battleship turbolasers.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You call the visible beam a tracer. But from what I understand it's not a tracer at all. It is fired before the invisible beam, then a gunner waits until the beam hits or almost hits a target and then it fires another invisible beam that travels at the speed of light.
That doesn't make any sense.

Actually, it is a considered a side effect of the weapon (AOTC:ICS). Unlike what you seem to think, you cannot choose not to have it altogether. What you may be able to do is reduce it, or adjust the characteristics of the apparent bolt, so it has some marginal utility.

In other words, the computer is not ranging with the slowpoke bolt (though that will help the gunner aim manually at close ranges, that's not the purpose of the bolt's existence). It is ranging with the low power lightspeed beam. Generally, everything is synced, but sometimes it falls out of sync, causing various wacky effects to our eyes.

First let me say that I think that Empire would crush the Federation so there is really no need for you to scare me with slow Fed weapons. I know they are slow. The trouble is the Imperial are no faster either.

For someone who just said that he really thinks that the Wounded would mean a useful range advantage, yet you point out with 10km/s bolts, they would take a week to run 10 light minutes, your words do not reassure me.

Some Imperial weapons, by the way, are fast, even if you take the speed of the visible bolt, like the DS superlaser or the ion bolts rising from Hoth.

[Kane Starkiller]

Actually, it is a considered a side effect of the weapon (AOTC:ICS). Unlike what you seem to think, you cannot choose not to have it altogether. What you may be able to do is reduce it, or adjust the characteristics of the apparent bolt, so it has some marginal utility.

So what you are saying that the visible bolt is a byproduct of the real beam that cannot be avoided yet they can control how much after the visible bolt is fired a real beam will be released.
Yet we never see turbolasers used at long range even if it would be useful. A barrage fire from first Death Star at a few 100km range or fire from Star Destroyers at battle of Endor before the rebels decided to engage them at point blank range.

And why do gunners wait for the visible bolt to impact the enemy ships even at extremly close range(like medical frigate vs SSD).

For someone who just said that he really thinks that the Wounded would mean a useful range advantage, yet you point out with 10km/s bolts, they would take a week to run 10 light minutes, your words do not reassure me.

I said advantage UNTIL they move to closer range like SoA/Endor.

[Jawawithagun]

Would the ST races be able to put their tribal factionalism aside for this week or will they already have killed each other before the ISDs arrive?
Will the Borg be able to wait with assimilating any and everyone until after the battle is fought?
How deep will the ST ships be able to follow the ISDs into the black hole's accretion disc before dust and radiation terminate them?

The area is the centre of the milky way is NOT a clean and easy battleground! It is a bloody hell made out of high-energy radiation and pulverized bones of dead stars and planets.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So what you are saying that the visible bolt is a byproduct of the real beam that cannot be avoided yet they can control how much after the visible bolt is fired a real beam will be released.

No. You still seem to conceive the bolt and the beam as separate components. They are not. The bolt and beam are one. The bolt is a side effect that travels along the beam as it is being fired.

It is kind of like this (by someone figuring out the theory).

Yet we never see turbolasers used at long range even if it would be useful. A barrage fire from first Death Star at a few 100km range or fire from Star Destroyers at battle of Endor before the rebels decided to engage them at point blank range.

The novelization does point out in ROTJ that:
1) The Imperials are holding back.
2) There were longer-range firefights. Since we only saw a tiny fraction of the battle, presumably they did the firing while we didn't notice.
3) Jamming.
4) Don't get me started on close range Star Trek combat...

And why do gunners wait for the visible bolt to impact the enemy ships even at extremly close range(like medical frigate vs SSD).

The gun does take a certain amount of time to recharge. They aren't losing any time that way. Besides, the bolt is a inherent property.

I said advantage UNTIL they move to closer range like SoA/Endor.

Precisely. When you remember a Trek advantage, you would simply not consider the Slow Torp Visuals - all you'd remember is the range and so of course it'd be effective. Yet when Wars does the same trick, you'd immediately remember how slow Wars bolts are.

[Lord Revan]

what's SoA?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

what's SoA?

Sacrifice of Angels, a DS9 episode. One of the few large scale battles. One of the not so few cases that Star Trek ships close to visual range to fight.

[Lord Revan]

So I figured (after I posted that) apart of Endor (in ROTJ) and Corusant (in ROTS) are there any battles in non-game EU that show piss poor ranges instead of high visual or beond visual range combat being the norm?

[Alyeska]

No. You still seem to conceive the bolt and the beam as separate components. They are not. The bolt and beam are one. The bolt is a side effect that travels along the beam as it is being fired.

Which clearly puts TLs at sublight. You miss the visible bolt, and you clear 99% of the time.

[Kane Starkiller]

No. You still seem to conceive the bolt and the beam as separate components. They are not. The bolt and beam are one. The bolt is a side effect that travels along the beam as it is being fired.

So they are one but they can be synchronized so the visible part will always strike at the same time or slightly after the invisible part. How does that work?

It is kind of like this (by someone figuring out the theory).

So the invisible beam outraces the visible beam. So how do they always end up striking the target at the same time?

The novelization does point out in ROTJ that:
1) The Imperials are holding back.
2) There were longer-range firefights. Since we only saw a tiny fraction of the battle, presumably they did the firing while we didn't notice.
3) Jamming.

1 and 2 are untrue as far as first Death Star is concerned. As for jamming they still wouldn't lose anything by just trying to shoot a few of them down.

As for the second Death Star reason 1 is partially true. The Imps were holding back because they didn't want to get between DS2 superlaser and enemy capital ships. There was no reason not to shoot at them at few 100km range if they had lightspeed weapons.As for 2 we saw battles betwen 5-10 capital ships out of 40 imperial and about 40 rebel. That is not a tiny fraction. As for jamming hitting a 3km long ship from distance of few 100km using lightspeed weapons really shouldn't be that much of a problem.

4) Don't get me started on close range Star Trek combat...

I saw both SoA and FC so I know everything about Feds cobat ranges.

[nightmare]

The Imps were holding back because they didn't want to get between DS2 superlaser and enemy capital ships. There was no reason not to shoot at them at few 100km range if they had lightspeed weapons.

COMMANDER We're not going to attack?
PIETT I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.

Just figured I'd clear that up for you.

[Kamakazie Sith]

By the way, if you want to use that "visible weapon speed" argument, you'd lose. Photon torpedoes when they can be seen also crawl along the screen at a few hundred meters per second (you can actually see their transit in those WVR actions), and I don't think torpedoes have a invisible "dodge". Should I thus conclude that the Wounded example involved playback time compression (perfectly conceivable for a computer playback), and the torpedoes took a day to travel the distance? It would also explain why this is not an often used ability!

A missile is hardly the same thing as a energy weapon. The Wounded is an example of torpedos being fired at warp speeds which has been observed in a couple episodes. TNG "Emissary" being one of them. (IIRC)

[Kamakazie Sith]

I see a lot of attempts to justify written material here, but let's face the facts the movies override any written works and the movies have never shown turbolasers moving at C. We should see explosions way before the actual "tracer" hits.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I see a lot of attempts to justify written material here, but let's face the facts the movies override any written works and the movies have never shown turbolasers moving at C. We should see explosions way before the actual "tracer" hits.

The theory is that the beam is at very low power until the time that the "tracer" hits the target, when the power is ramped up to full. The beam wouldn't have any early damaging effects, even though it's already hitting the target. At least, that's my understanding.

[Lord Revan]

I see a lot of attempts to justify written material here, but let's face the facts the movies override any written works and the movies have never shown turbolasers moving at C. We should see explosions way before the actual "tracer" hits.

The theory is that the beam is at very low power until the time that the "tracer" hits the target, when the power is ramped up to full. The beam wouldn't have any early damaging effects, even though it's already hitting the target. At least, that's my understanding.

perhaps the beam isn't powerfull enough to show any damage before the tracer hits.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I see a lot of attempts to justify written material here, but let's face the facts the movies override any written works and the movies have never shown turbolasers moving at C. We should see explosions way before the actual "tracer" hits.

The theory is that the beam is at very low power until the time that the "tracer" hits the target, when the power is ramped up to full. The beam wouldn't have any early damaging effects, even though it's already hitting the target. At least, that's my understanding.

Wouldn't that require the turbolaser to actually be a beam weapon instead of firing bolts? Sounds like speculation to me.

[Alan Bolte]

If we're on the subject of c-propagating turbolasers, there's something that's been bugging me about them.

The Death Star's turbolasers in ANH recoiled when the tracer was fired, not when it hit. Wouldn't the recoil occur when the most energy is released? How is that rationalized with the lightspeed theory?

I don't mean to dogpile on to this tangent, but this is the first time I've seen a good opportunity to ask.

Did we ever directly see those turbolasers hit anything? There's nothing I know of that says specifically when the 'tracer' part of the beam must leave the barrel, and all the guns I remember fire continuously, so the instance when ramp-up is finished and maximum damage (and therefore recoil) occurs is unknown.

Other examples might show otherwise, however. I am especially curious about Episode III in that respect.

[Lord Revan]

I see a lot of attempts to justify written material here, but let's face the facts the movies override any written works and the movies have never shown turbolasers moving at C. We should see explosions way before the actual "tracer" hits.

The theory is that the beam is at very low power until the time that the "tracer" hits the target, when the power is ramped up to full. The beam wouldn't have any early damaging effects, even though it's already hitting the target. At least, that's my understanding.

Wouldn't that require the turbolaser to actually be a beam weapon instead of firing bolts? Sounds like speculation to me.

it's speculation as it's (as Mike said) easier to say what TLs ain't then what they are.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I agree it is easier to say what they aren't, and according to the highest form of canon turbolasers don't travel at c.

I've seen other published works that put the max range of starship turbolasers at 100KM. The Guide to Weapons and Vehicles. (The title is something like that)

[Lord Revan]

So we "dial a speed" TL and it's Essential Guige to Weapons and Technology (it's also tell what kind TL were talking about (other then it's used in ISDs)
(aren't the ICSs higher in the canon scale)