Lord Revan wrote:So we "dial a speed" TL and it's Essential Guige to Weapons and Technology (it's also tell what kind TL were talking about (other then it's used in ISDs)
(aren't the ICSs higher in the canon scale)
Dial in a speed for an energy weapon?!? I think we should remember Occams Razor at this point. The simplest explanation is that the ICS is wrong and turbolasers aren't C weapons based off visual evidence.
Inventing all these justifications as why we see what we do is speculation and it seems to me that it does violate Occams Razor.
Unless we a max speed of TL bolt from source that's higher then ROTS:ICS I see no reason to ignore the TL range from the book (so far all gotten is TL bolts are <c (which means that can be 0.999999999999999999999999...c))
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Lord Revan wrote:Unless we a max speed of TL bolt from source that's higher then ROTS:ICS I see no reason to ignore the TL range from the book (so far all gotten is TL bolts are <c (which means that can be 0.999999999999999999999999...c))
I can't calculate how fast those bolts are moving, but I think it's safe to guess they aren't moving anywhere near C. I think it's safe to guess that when you actually see evidence of weapon impact it's still no where close to C.
Meaning we should see evidence of impact as soon as we see the tracer appear, if they moved anywhere near C.
Lord Revan wrote:Unless we a max speed of TL bolt from source that's higher then ROTS:ICS I see no reason to ignore the TL range from the book (so far all gotten is TL bolts are <c (which means that can be 0.999999999999999999999999...c))
I can't calculate how fast those bolts are moving, but I think it's safe to guess they aren't moving anywhere near C. I think it's safe to guess that when you actually see evidence of weapon impact it's still no where close to C.
Meaning we should see evidence of impact as soon as we see the tracer appear, if they moved anywhere near C.
If you aren't doing the calculations, it's essentially just saying "I don't like it."
Without such, this is nothing more then an appeal to ignorance saying the ICS is wrong.
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Its called common sense. Its blindlingly obvious when something isn't moving anywhere near C.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Alyeska wrote:Its called common sense. Its blindlingly obvious when something isn't moving anywhere near C.
Right, and would we all like to go back to the eternal bullshit of going "There aren't 200GT!!!!!"
Or do want to continue the litany that the reason calculations are done because common sense doesn't fucking cut it when a debate upon mathmatical sense comes into play.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
And before people scream at this, and go "Visual trumps all!!!!"
Unless you can show that no Turbolaser in the entirity of the offical Star Wars has never done this...it stands. The point is what we see and can calulate is a lower limit, not the absolute limit.
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Ghost Rider wrote:
If you aren't doing the calculations, it's essentially just saying "I don't like it."
Without such, this is nothing more then an appeal to ignorance saying the ICS is wrong.
I don't know how to do the calculations. However, if it were moving anywhere near C you'd see impact before the tracer even got a foot away from the barrel. Do you disagree? Are you saying that as slow as tracers go it would manage to make some decent distance before a weapon moving at C hit a target below 100KM?
It's a pretty safe guess considering how fast c is. At 100KM impact would be pretty much instananeous for a near c weapon, but visuals show us it isn't.
If the target is at 100km and we don't see an explosion in one second time that means turbolasers are traveling below 50km/s. Which as you know isn't even close to c.
Alyeska wrote:Its called common sense. Its blindlingly obvious when something isn't moving anywhere near C.
Right, and would we all like to go back to the eternal bullshit of going "There aren't 200GT!!!!!"
Or do want to continue the litany that the reason calculations are done because common sense doesn't fucking cut it when a debate upon mathmatical sense comes into play.
Wrong, because there is no direct contradiction of turbolasers not being 200GT.
There is, however, plenty to contradict this belief that turbolasers move at c.
Alyeska wrote:Its called common sense. Its blindlingly obvious when something isn't moving anywhere near C.
Right, and would we all like to go back to the eternal bullshit of going "There aren't 200GT!!!!!"
Or do want to continue the litany that the reason calculations are done because common sense doesn't fucking cut it when a debate upon mathmatical sense comes into play.
Red herring. I don't need to do calculations to prove that both TLs and phasers are not visibly LS.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
I don't know how to do the calculations. However, if it were moving anywhere near C you'd see impact before the tracer even got a foot away from the barrel. Do you disagree? Are you saying that as slow as tracers go it would manage to make some decent distance before a weapon moving at C hit a target below 100KM?
It's a pretty safe guess considering how fast c is. At 100KM impact would be pretty much instananeous for a near c weapon, but visuals show us it isn't.
If the target is at 100km and we don't see an explosion in one second time that means turbolasers are traveling below 50km/s. Which as you know isn't even close to c.
can you show when the actual leathal part of the bolt left the barrel?
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Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Lord Revan wrote:
If the target is at 100km and we don't see an explosion in one second time that means turbolasers are traveling below 50km/s. Which as you know isn't even close to c.
can you show when the actual leathal part of the bolt left the barrel?[/quote]
Since this actual part is suppose to be invisible. No, I can't. Are you suggesting that they fire visible tracers and just when the tracer is about to hit the target they fire the actual weapon?
ICSs, since there's nothing in movies that either prove or disprove this.
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"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Lord Revan wrote:ICSs, since there's nothing in movies that either prove or disprove this.
That's interesting? Do you have the quote that says the tracer is launched before the actual weapon? If you can show me the quote that says the visible portion of the weapon is launched before the high energy component then I'd concede.
The description from ICS just doesn't make sense. It might be canon, but that doesn't stop it from being non-sensical. TLs are obviously not light speed weapons because the accuracy is highly dependent on the visible bolt striking the target, which clearly doesn't move anywhere near light speed. Calling TLs light speed weapons is like calling modern Hellfire missiles lightspeed weapons because they use IR targeting lasers.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
well anyway TLs are either LS or near LS weapons (in long ranges (the same thing can said of ship mounted phasers)) (IIRC) there was even an incident during NJO that suggests that TL are capable of firing FTL bolts
I see no evindense to throw away the ROTS:ICS range of which the whole TL bolt speed debate is about.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
If the ICS does say that the visible component actually hits the target at the same time the high energy component fires then what do they do when they engage at long ranges? Do they just not use the visible component when fighting at long ranges?
Check it: SW weapons propagate at low speed, because that's what we see onscreen. ST ships will engage at massive range, because... um... they did... like... this one time. And never, ever in any of their fleet engagements, ever. But for sure they'll do it in this fleet engagement, natch.
Stark wrote:Check it: SW weapons propagate at low speed, because that's what we see onscreen. ST ships will engage at massive range, because... um... they did... like... this one time. And never, ever in any of their fleet engagements, ever. But for sure they'll do it in this fleet engagement, natch.
Actually no. It's more likely that ST ships will engage at the same ranges Imperial ships normally do, especially if jamming is involved.
the MO here is clear disprove ICS ranges by slow bolts from the movies, state from same source SW ranges are piss poor. After that state for some reason ST side is able to the wounded range in fleet combat, while SW is limited to ranges show in ROTJ/ROTS (and said to point blank).
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Actually no. It's more likely that ST ships will engage at the same ranges Imperial ships normally do, especially if jamming is involved.
if ignore everything but the movies then we have never seen standard combat ranges of SW ships.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Alyeska wrote:The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.
Actually its the oposite. The visable bolt is a side effect of the c. propagating beam.
You don't debate by saying "its dumb, there fore mustn't be tRuE!!!010101"
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
Yet what he creates tends to be total shit. Example: Ode to Spot.
Purely subjective. Believe it or not, there are people who like that poem.
There are people who like to eat shit too. Those people are idiots.- Darth Servo and Bounty.
Alyeska wrote:The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.
Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?
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"These deadly rays will be your death!"
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Star-Blighter wrote:Actually its the oposite. The visable bolt is a side effect of the c. propagating beam.
You don't debate by saying "its dumb, there fore mustn't be tRuE!!!010101"
A side effect created BEFORE the invisible beam is fired, a side effect that has to strike the target 99% of the time in order for the invisible beam to cause damage.
Examine the fucking evidence.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
