ST Galaxy vs Star Destroyers

[Alyeska]

The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.

Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?

A VERY good point.

[SirNitram]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. TL's defy most explanations we can come up with our understanding. It's best to toss aside trying to come up with an explanation, and focus on what we see. And what we see is highly variable speeds, high energy output, and a huge range.

[Alyeska]

And that is more the sufficent for the purpose of the debate.

[Illuminatus Primus]

So we "dial a speed" TL and it's Essential Guige to Weapons and Technology (it's also tell what kind TL were talking about (other then it's used in ISDs)
(aren't the ICSs higher in the canon scale)

Dial in a speed for an energy weapon?!? I think we should remember Occams Razor at this point. The simplest explanation is that the ICS is wrong and turbolasers aren't C weapons based off visual evidence.

Inventing all these justifications as why we see what we do is speculation and it seems to me that it does violate Occams Razor.

Ok, explain automatically redirecting bolts in mid-flight AFTER being fired. And they do not really turn; their trajectory changes in angle from the source to the target.

If you saw the .gif that HDS did, you'd understand immediately. Let me see if I can find it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.

Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?

Do you really think TL barrel recoil is commiserate with this kind of force:

The recoil force implied by a beam of this power is on the order of 4×10^14 N, a horrendous and almost incredible magnitude for a vehicle of this size. It's enough to propel a million-ton object with an acceleration of 40000G, or a 2km wide iron ball at 1G. This is a severe problem. One possible solution would be a principle like that of a “recoilless rifle”: a mechanism that applies an equal counterforce, e.g. a harmless neutrino counter-beam firing in the opposite direction. Otherwise, the gun requires some form of extensive force-field anchorage to the surrounding terrain (perhaps akin to the tensor fields and inertial compensators that hold an accelerating starship together). The way walkers and troops leave areas of clear ground behind a SPHA-T may be a clue to where the recoil pressure is distributed.

Two-meter little tubes recoiling at an acceleration of maybe a few G is absolutely irreconcilable with the known energy content of STAR WARS heavy weaponry. Its obvious from the start that they cannot be recoiling due to the damaging energy; besides, the SPHA-T automatically recoil with the beginning of the energy beam and then return to their normal position while the gun is still firing the beam.

What we're talking about is hardly unprecedented. If there is anyway to make the AOTC ICS operate with canon observation, it is prefered by canon policy. Besides, the depth into which Dr. Saxton can expound on the nature and mechanics of these weapons is limited at best, even in DK works.

[Alan Bolte]

The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.

Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?

A VERY good point.

Did we ever directly see those turbolasers hit anything? There's nothing I know of that says specifically when the 'tracer' part of the beam must leave the barrel, and all the guns I remember fire continuously, so the instance when ramp-up is finished and maximum damage (and therefore recoil) occurs is unknown.

Other examples might show otherwise, however. I am especially curious about Episode III in that respect.

By the way, why is it so hard to believe that whatever mechanism the turbolasers use might require a ramp-up time?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

[snip]

IIRC the Falcon's quad cannons were already recovering from their recoil when the shots hit the TIEs. I don't have the screengrabs to prove it, though. I do know for certain that they began their recoil when the tracer left, not when the TIEs were hit, and here we DO see hits.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And the fact that every single cannon recoils in basically the same speed even though the weight of the cannons are obviously not commiserate with the energy content of their emissions from Falcon turret to TradeFed quadgun doesn't bother anyone? If it was caused by damaging energy, the acceleration of the barrel should correlate with the amount of energy in the beam taking into account the weight of the barrel. This is not the case.

[Lord Revan]

well like it said there only three things we can be certain about TLs, they have variable speed, a lot energy and long range. everything else is speculation of some sort (even official explantions)

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

And the fact that every single cannon recoils in basically the same speed even though the weight of the cannons are obviously not commiserate with the energy content of their emissions from Falcon turret to TradeFed quadgun doesn't bother anyone? If it was caused by damaging energy, the acceleration of the barrel should correlate with the amount of energy in the beam taking into account the weight of the barrel. This is not the case.

That makes sense. I hadn't even thought of that... *smacks forehead*

[Stark]

So noones debating that 500 ISDs could defeat every combat starship in the ST galaxy?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The movies do not over ride ICS. ICS states that TLs have a light speed compontent, but the weapons as a whole are not light speed. ICS technicaly follows onscreen canon, it just uses the dumbest explination I've ever heard. Tracers fired before the main shot that move slower then the main shot. Absolutely stupid.

Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?

A VERY good point.

Suck it.

[Solauren]

It really gets down to tactics in this one.

It the rest of the Galaxy is smart, they'll let the Borg (arguable the most powerful faction in ST, with the possible exception of the Voth) rush in and fight with the Star Destroyers, absorbing fire and praying they'd adapt to the Turbolaser fire, while at the same time using the Borg for cover and emptying all there weapons at them.

However, if no one is that smart, or the Borg don't go for it, well, imagine the effect of all those star trek ship in a constant barrage from at least 30,000 Turbolasers (60 cannons per ship, 500 ships).....

[Alyeska]

Plus, when we see close-ups of TL turrets firing, the barrels move back to absorb the recoil when the visible portion of the bolt exits. What the hell would be the point of that if the part of the bolt that actually does the damage isn't fired until several seconds later?

A VERY good point.

Suck it.

Fuck off.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok, explain automatically redirecting bolts in mid-flight AFTER being fired. And they do not really turn; their trajectory changes in angle from the source to the target.

If you saw the .gif that HDS did, you'd understand immediately. Let me see if I can find it.

An optical illusion. Unless you'd like to explain where you got this canon information that they have the ability to re-direct pulse type energy weapons mid-flight.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Suck it.

What are we looking for here? All I see is recoil from the SPHA-Ts. You're saying that the recoil isn't enough for GT level weaponry, but that's hardly evidence when you're dealing with the Empire has access to special types of materials and technology.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Suck it.

What are we looking for here? All I see is recoil from the SPHA-Ts. You're saying that the recoil isn't enough for GT level weaponry, but that's hardly evidence when you're dealing with the Empire has access to special types of materials and technology.

No, stupid. The entire beam does damage, but the recoil only lasts for the activation. If the recoil was from the actual damaging shot, the barrel would stay retracted until the beam was turned off. The barrel retracts and returns while GT level energy is still being emited. THEREFORE, it is not the beam causing the recoil. THEREFORE we should not be surprised or bothered if other weapons have visible recoil NOT commiserate with the damaging section of the shot.

Besides, genius, unless that sleeve weighs more than a 2 km sphere of iron, it should accelerate backward MUCH MORE QUICKLY. That's two pieces of evidence why the barrel-retraction is independent of the counter-momentum from the destructive emmissions of turbolasers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fuck off.

I'm very sorry my memory is better (less selective?) than yours.

Ok, explain automatically redirecting bolts in mid-flight AFTER being fired. And they do not really turn; their trajectory changes in angle from the source to the target.

If you saw the .gif that HDS did, you'd understand immediately. Let me see if I can find it.

An optical illusion. Unless you'd like to explain where you got this canon information that they have the ability to re-direct pulse type energy weapons mid-flight.

An optical illusion? LOL. Ok, so it just appears to redirect in flight? Like you said; we don't need a mechanism, we just need proof it happens in canon. A swiveling continous beam with a "rider" bolt and a power ramp-up can explain this. How can a blob of matter unconnected to the cannon?

[Alan Bolte]

Very interesting. I guess the momentum is dealt with in another way then.

[wilfulton]

"Would Trek score a Phyrric victory?"

Final answer for the $1,000,000: No

If the average Fed Starship can be destroyed by a handful of Photon torpedoes yielding somewhere between ~18 isotons (err... I don't think that source is reliable, but fuck it, ) to an upper limit of 64 megatons (and the truth is probably somewhere in between I'd wager).

And gets a Teraton level kiss from an ISD? I daresay the crews of the Fed ship will be breathing their own vapor before the all-wise commander orders in his panicked and rapidly fleeting man-voice; "Full power to shields." Besides, this is a clean fight, so in my mind stand-up, and the Imperial fleets can stand. Maybe the feds could use their warp drive, but if that was the case then how much most of the ship-to-ship fights we see on the tube don't involve the use of so-called warp-strafing, as they seem to be the exception rather than the norm.

I think a fairer fight would be who looks hotter in a swimsuit, Princess Leia or Counsellor Troi (in TNG). Hell you could make them fight, fists only, no weapons.

As far as Jem'hadar ramming attacks are concerned, star destroyers' shields probably withstood being rammed by more than one Y-wing, and it just turned into a cloud of vapor, harmful only to the poor sod in the pilot's seat. Since Star Trek ships are built out of toilet paper in comparison to Imperial ships (okay, so that is my own personal opinion, but I'm entitled to it, dammit, because anything that can take a TT level blast is obvioust built like the proverbial brick shithouse in comparison to single-ply), so I doubt the Jem'hadar fighter would have any better luck.

[Drooling Iguana]

Actually, the Feds could just go home and wait for the Imps to starve to death and/or die of old age as they try to reach habitable planets at sublight.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Actually, the Feds could just go home and wait for the Imps to starve to death and/or die of old age as they try to reach habitable planets at sublight.

The impression I got from the OP was that if they didn't fight (and thus didn't win), the Imperial reinforcements that would result wouldn't have the disabled hyperdrives.

Also, wouldn't it take months or years for the Milky Way ships to get back home?

[Castor Troy]

So noones debating that 500 ISDs could defeat every combat starship in the ST galaxy?

I guess I will.

Some guy back at SB keeps talking about a "Krenim Timeship" which could erase ships from the timeline. Maybe that'll do some good...*shrugs*

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

From the OP...

No cheap stuff like time travel

[Illuminatus Primus]

An optical illusion? LOL. Ok, so it just appears to redirect in flight? Like you said; we don't need a mechanism, we just need proof it happens in canon. A swiveling continous beam with a "rider" bolt and a power ramp-up can explain this. How can a blob of matter unconnected to the cannon?

Let's nail the coffin, shall we? In ROTJ, Wedge pitches his nose up after diving under the medical frigate right after "You cut left, I'll take the leader" and we cut to his cockpit. He fires two bolts at the Interceptor. Both the Interceptor and Wedge's X-Wing are pitching and climbing simultaneously. The bolts fire, and do not change position relative to the cockpit interior . In other words, the bolts pitch up and follow the motion of the fighter that fired them after they left the cannon. If these were independent, already-fired projectiles moving at sublight speed, their trajectory would be fixed after firing. A pitching starfighter would see his bolts converge and sink relative to the pilot's plane of orientation. Anyway, this conclusively proves the starfighter laser bolts are still controlled or connected to the fighter as it moves. The behavior is completely consistent with a sublight-propogating "disturbance" moving along a continuous lightspeed beam.

Even more telling, the bolts converge off-axis from the fighter's nose/midpoint between the cannons. Massive particle projectiles would be thought to continue along the axis of the cannon; off-axis/adjustable converge points seem more reconcilable with beam weapons than projectile ("bolt") ones.