Political Slant of Most US Universities

[Darth Wong]

--I knew you were going to post that reply at some point and ignore all the "legalise" I put in to avoid the slippery slope. Of course, one uses all the other non-lethal options first (the more equitable the better), tries all methods to "negotiate" a settlement, and gives lots of leeway in the case of minor things (like a stereo). However, in the case that none of these things are true/possible one must be willing to use their power to favor fair play.

Or else society will collapse into anarchy

[MKSheppard]

Actually, I don't say it very often to most people, but in your case ... let's just say that if the shoe fits, wear it.

You're just annoyed that the "slippery slope fallacy" is not true with gun
Registration. Whenever guns have been registered, they are eventually
confiscated.

[MKSheppard]

Or else society will collapse into anarchy

Might Makes Right You have to be prepared to stand up
for yourself at one point or another mike.

[Nova Andromeda]

Or else society will collapse into anarchy

--Nice black and white fallacy. Over time you know favoring foul play will result in foul play. Society may not collapse, but it will be worse than if you counteract that foul play and favor fair play (using your minimize sufferring criteria).

[Darth Wong]

Or else society will collapse into anarchy

--Nice black and white fallacy. Over time you know favoring foul play will result in foul play. Society may not collapse, but it will be worse than if you counteract that foul play and favor fair play (using your minimize sufferring criteria).

Black and white fallacy? That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are trying to rationalize the use of lethal force to defend property (in your case, you gave an example of ten thousand dollars; a paltry price to put on human life), and acting as though anything less is an invitation to anarchy.

[Darth Wong]

Might Makes Right You have to be prepared to stand up for yourself at one point or another mike.

I would kill to defend myself or my family if necessary. But not for ten thousand dollars.

[Darth Wong]

Through a helmet? I doubt that.

Then Explain how the Ewoks in ROTJ managed to knock out helmeted storm
troopers with rocks.

They were three feet away, and the rocks were quite large. I don't know how well-made military helmets are, but a construction hardhat can take a blow from a brick unless it's moving at extremely high speed without serious injury to the wearer.

[MKSheppard]

Black and white fallacy? That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are trying to rationalize the use of lethal force to defend property (in your case, you gave an example of ten thousand dollars; a paltry price to put on human life), and acting as though anything less is an invitation to anarchy.

10k is quite a lot of money. It represents a LOT of work. I am not letting some
fucknut walk away with my hard work...

[Darth Wong]

You're just annoyed that the "slippery slope fallacy" is not true with gun Registration. Whenever guns have been registered, they are eventually confiscated.

Wrong. Rates of gun ownership in Canada are similar to those in the States, even if we don't have so many people with giant arsenals (thus keeping the total gun count lower). No one's confiscating anyone's guns yet (I suppose you will simply say that they will, in order to preserve the integrity of your fallacy).

[MKSheppard]

No one's confiscating anyone's guns yet (I suppose you will simply say that they will, in order to preserve the integrity of your fallacy).

Wrong.

They HAVE.

New Zealand has had some form of firearms registration since 1921. In 1974, all revolvers lawfully held for personal security were confiscated. (Same source as previous paragraph)

In May of 1995, Canada's Bill C-68 prohibited previously legal and registered small-caliber handguns. Current owners of such guns were "grandfathered," which means the guns are to be forfeited upon death of the owner. Bill C-68 also authorizes the Canadian government to enact future weapons prohibitions.

On 10 May 1996, Australia banned most semi-automatic rifles and semi-automatic and pump shotguns. Prior to this law, many Australian states and territories had firearms registration. Owners of these newly outlawed firearms were required to surrender them (with some monetary compensation). All such firearms are to be confiscated and destroyed after a 12-month amnesty program. Roughly 600,000 of an estimated 4 million Australian guns have been surrendered to authorities and destroyed.

Even in the United States, registration has been used to outlaw and confiscate firearms. In New York City, a registration system enacted in 1967 for long guns, was used in the early 1990s to confiscate lawfully owned semiautomatic rifles and shotguns. (Same source as previous paragraph) The New York City Council banned firearms that had been classified by the city as "assault weapons." This was done despite the testimony of Police Commissioner Lee Brown that no registered "assault weapon" had been used in a violent crime in the city. The 2,340 New Yorkers who had registered their firearms were notified that these firearms had to be surrendered, rendered inoperable, or taken out of the city.

More recently, California revoked a grace period for the registration of certain rifles (SKS Sporters) and declared that any such weapons registered during that period were illegal. (California Penal Code, Chapter 2.3, Roberti-Ross Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 section 12281(f) ) In addition, California has prohibited certain semi-automatic long-rifles and pistols. Those guns currently owned, must be registered, and upon the death of the owner, either surrendered or moved out of state. (FAQ #13 from the California DOJ Firearms Division Page)

[Darth Wong]

10k is quite a lot of money. It represents a LOT of work. I am not letting some fucknut walk away with my hard work...

Then shoot him in the leg.

Besides, $10K is barely enough to renovate a bathroom.

[weemadando]

Black and white fallacy? That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are trying to rationalize the use of lethal force to defend property (in your case, you gave an example of ten thousand dollars; a paltry price to put on human life), and acting as though anything less is an invitation to anarchy.

10k is quite a lot of money. It represents a LOT of work. I am not letting some
fucknut walk away with my hard work...

Sure, 10K is a LOT of money. But, when someone jumps your fence and you shoot them, how do you know they weren't just fetching a ball or something? I mean its patently ridiculous to shoot someone JUST for trespassing. I don't see why the hell you goddamn armed vigilantes just can't allow the police to do the job they are paid to do.

[MKSheppard]

Sure, 10K is a LOT of money. But, when someone jumps your fence and you shoot them, how do you know they weren't just fetching a ball or something? I mean its patently ridiculous to shoot someone JUST for trespassing. I don't see why the hell you goddamn armed vigilantes just can't allow the police to do the job they are paid to do.

Actually, Government is failing to do the job specifiied in the Constitution,
causing Armed Militas to be formed....

http://www.azstarnet.com/border/21115TO ... st2fj.html

Tombstone paper calls for militia

By Ignacio Ibarra
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Cochise County's "official newspaper" has issued a call to arms and
is spearheading the formation of a local militia to combat illegal immigration.

To participate in the discussion, readers must register to use the forums.
Tucson human rights activist Isabel Garcia said the Tombstone Tumbleweed's rhetoric is the latest manifestation of a militant vigilantism that has long existed in Cochise County with the acceptance and encouragement of local officials.

She said Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever's public friendship with groups like Glenn Spencer's American Patrol, the sheriff's lack of investigation into Roger and Don Barnett's armed detention of illegal entrants and the clear unwillingness on the part of Cochise County Attorney Chris Roll to investigate and prosecute the two brothers have given them credibility and encouraged groups like Texas-based Ranch Rescue and the new Tombstone Militia.

"To have the official newspaper of the county call on people to take up arms is very dangerous, very frightening. Law enforcement and public officials should be concerned," she said.

Garcia canceled an upcoming speaking engagement in Bisbee out of concern over the growing hostility in the county.

Roll, the county attorney, said every case brought to him is reviewed under the same standards. "If we have sufficient evidence that a crime has been committed, we will prosecute."

Sheriff Dever said frustrations with the federal government's inability to stem the flow of illegal immigration has attracted the attention of a number of groups on all sides of the issue.

While he acknowledged attending and speaking at American Patrol meetings, he said his presence should be construed as being a voice of reason rather than a supporter of particular agendas or methodology.

At least 43 people have joined the Citizens Border Patrol militia since the front page call to arms appeared in the Tombstone Tumbleweed last month - under a headline that read "Enough is Enough!" - and support continues to grow, said Chris Simcox, a former California teacher who is now owner, publisher and editor of the Tombstone weekly.

Simcox isn't shy about using the words "vigilante" and "militia" to describe his plans. He sees both as a patriotic obligation in a time of war and a necessity in light of the federal government's failure to stop the flood of immigrants funneling through Cochise County.

His plan is to put armed, able-bodied militia members on private property near the border to create a presence and a deterrent to illegal border crossers.

"This has nothing to do with the Mexican people per se. . . . It's about stopping uncontrolled immigration," he said. "We want local people, we don't want the Rambos, the mercenaries and soldiers of fortune that some of these groups seem to be made up of."

Cochise County Supervisor Paul Newman, who represents the Tombstone area on the county Board of Supervisors said the county has no authority or desire to interfere with the publisher's First Amendment right to publish what he chooses.

But the supervisor said he is concerned that the harsh editorial tone of the newspaper not be represented as the position of Cochise County. He's asked county staffers to look into the newspaper's use of the phrase "Official Newspaper of Cochise County" in its masthead.

According to state law, a newspaper awarded a county's legal advertising contract may be referred to as the county's official paper.

* Contact reporter Ignacio Ibarra at (520) 432-2766 or at nacho1@mindspring.com.

[Sea Skimmer]

You're just annoyed that the "slippery slope fallacy" is not true with gun Registration. Whenever guns have been registered, they are eventually confiscated.

Wrong. Rates of gun ownership in Canada are similar to those in the States, even if we don't have so many people with giant arsenals (thus keeping the total gun count lower). No one's confiscating anyone's guns yet (I suppose you will simply say that they will, in order to preserve the integrity of your fallacy).

It has already happened repeatedly in the United States. Gun control in the United States is and will remain Black and White. The reason is simple; every inch the pro gun side yields results in a half-foot being taken. It goes on and on until you have areas where township is near impossible and weapons are being confiscated for no compensation. That gives little incentive to yield the one-inch, which might be considered on its own reasonable to the pro gun side.

[Nova Andromeda]

Black and white fallacy? That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are trying to rationalize the use of lethal force to defend property (in your case, you gave an example of ten thousand dollars; a paltry price to put on human life), and acting as though anything less is an invitation to anarchy.

--This is a strawman and you know it. The situation I describe is being forced to decide between killing someone trying to take that money by force and not backing down or letting people get away with stealing that money thereby not favoring fair play. I have already said given the option to still favor fair play I would not use lethal force. In my judgement letting people get away with stealing tens of thousands of dollars is an invitation to anarchy. Fortunately, there are nonlethal options to use in RL to favor fair play.

[MKSheppard]

Then shoot him in the leg.

And let him come back and sue me? No way. Shoot to kill, only one side
can then be told....

Besides, $10K is barely enough to renovate a bathroom.

I don't know about you, but you can buy a car, a decently equipped one for
that amount of money here in the States, you can buy a nice generator with
it....etc etc.....and more than enough to renovate a bathroom if you DO
ALL THE WORK YOURSELF rather than hire some contractor.

[Darth Wong]

Then shoot him in the leg.

And let him come back and sue me? No way. Shoot to kill, only one side
can then be told....

Precisely. The use of lethal force means that you are judge, jury, and executioner, and the victim does not get the chance to tell his side of the story, get a fair trial, etc. That is why it is prohibited unless you can prove that you were in a legitimate self-defense situation.

And Nova: sorry, but the damage to society from lethal vigilantism would be much greater than that which results from the occasional theft of $10,000.

Besides, $10K is barely enough to renovate a bathroom.

I don't know about you, but you can buy a car, a decently equipped one for that amount of money here in the States, you can buy a nice generator with it....etc etc.....and more than enough to renovate a bathroom if you DO ALL THE WORK YOURSELF rather than hire some contractor.

I know what the list prices are on automobiles in the States. You cannot buy a decent car for $10K. A generator is nothing to get excited about. And you can easily piss away $5000-$10,000 just on parts for a nice bathroom. Cabinets, countertops, tiles, walls, whirlpool, toilet, all cost money. Besides, what's the use of money if you can't use it to get people to do your work for you?

[Sea Skimmer]

Black and white fallacy? That's the pot calling the kettle black. You are trying to rationalize the use of lethal force to defend property (in your case, you gave an example of ten thousand dollars; a paltry price to put on human life), and acting as though anything less is an invitation to anarchy.

10k is quite a lot of money. It represents a LOT of work. I am not letting some
fucknut walk away with my hard work...

Sure, 10K is a LOT of money. But, when someone jumps your fence and you shoot them, how do you know they weren't just fetching a ball or something? I mean its patently ridiculous to shoot someone JUST for trespassing. I don't see why the hell you goddamn armed vigilantes just can't allow the police to do the job they are paid to do.

So suddenly a willingness to shoot someone making off you your car or stereo system is the same as being willing to shoot someone trespassing? Right sure..

If the police where able to be everywhere at every time it woundn't be an issue. They can't be however. I live n a urban area yet the response times are still 10 minutes or more, sometimes twenty plus if the patrol unit already has a call. If I can stop it, often by simply displaying a gun, more then 95% of all cases of a gun being drawn in defense of person or property don't result in shots being fired, I damn well ought to be able to. Tens of thousand of cases of guns being drawn in self-defense are recorded each year. The most usual result is something on the times of

"He had a knife and demanded my wallet. I racked the slid and he ran off."

The threat of force is nearly as effective as force its self, if not more so. And the armed population of the United state has demonstrated thousands of times over that’s its hardly the blood thirst band of trigger happy inept red necks the anti gun crowd likes to make it out as.

[MKSheppard]

Precisely. The use of lethal force means that you are judge, jury, and executioner, and the victim does not get the chance to tell his side of the story, get a fair trial, etc. That is why it is prohibited unless you can prove that you were in a legitimate self-defense situation.

Actually, it may be prohibited in Canada, but in many parts of the
US, you can shoot to kill over property.....note to self...Do NOT
become a REPO man in TX....

Also, in many parts of the US, the states subscribe to "Your Home is
Your Castle' Doctrine, meaning you do NOT have to withdraw if you
are attacked in your home.

I know what the list prices are on automobiles in the States. You cannot buy a decent car for $10K. A generator is nothing to get excited about. And you can easily piss away $5000-$10,000 just on parts for a nice bathroom. Cabinets, countertops, tiles, walls, whirlpool, toilet, all cost money. Besides, what's the use of money if you can't use it to get people to do your work for you?

Yes you can. $10k gets you a nice car that's about 2 years old. Generator
is nice to have, and a $10k model can run everything in your house during
a blackout, saving you money on replacing spoilage in your foods.

And who in their fucking mind spends 5k to 10k on the fucking BATHROOM?

If you are willing to do the work yourself, you can save QUITE
a bit.....QUITE a bit.

[TrailerParkJawa]

And who in their fucking mind spends 5k to 10k on the fucking BATHROOM?

Lots of people. Granite slabs get pricey real quick. 5-10k on a bathroom is very common for the kind of homes here.

[Sea Skimmer]

Then shoot him in the leg.

And let him come back and sue me? No way. Shoot to kill, only one side
can then be told....

Precisely. The use of lethal force means that you are judge, jury, and executioner, and the victim does not get the chance to tell his side of the story, get a fair trial, etc. That is why it is prohibited unless you can prove that you were in a legitimate self-defense situation.

And Nova: sorry, but the damage to society from lethal vigilantism would be much greater than that which results from the occasional theft of $10,000.

Besides, $10K is barely enough to renovate a bathroom.

I don't know about you, but you can buy a car, a decently equipped one for that amount of money here in the States, you can buy a nice generator with it....etc etc.....and more than enough to renovate a bathroom if you DO ALL THE WORK YOURSELF rather than hire some contractor.

I know what the list prices are on automobiles in the States. You cannot buy a decent car for $10K. A generator is nothing to get excited about. And you can easily piss away $5000-$10,000 just on parts for a nice bathroom. Cabinets, countertops, tiles, walls, whirlpool, toilet, all cost money. Besides, what's the use of money if you can't use it to get people to do your work for you?

The average earnings of an American are about 30,000 a year.

Think you could easily cut 1/3 from your budget for a year?

[MKSheppard]

Lots of people. Granite slabs get pricey real quick. 5-10k on a bathroom is very common for the kind of homes here.

I can understand the money if it's going into a nice wooden floor, which
is expensive, but spending more than a few K on the bathroom is ridiculous
to me...better to spend it on something that will be noticed more like
your bedroom or rec room.

[MKSheppard]

The average earnings of an American are about 30,000 a year.

Think you could easily cut 1/3 from your budget for a year?

Hell, my mom makes only 33k a year...again Mike, would you Mind
If I came up to Canada and robbed you at gunpoint for 1/3rd of your
yearly income?

[TrailerParkJawa]

I can understand the money if it's going into a nice wooden floor, which
is expensive, but spending more than a few K on the bathroom is ridiculous
to me...better to spend it on something that will be noticed more like
your bedroom or rec room.

I dont disagree with not spending lots of my on my bathroom. I just was pointing out that 5-10k for a bathroom remodel is standard here. But then we have the highest housing costs in the country.

When people do remodel here they tend use tile and granite. Its very popular right now.

[Nova Andromeda]

And Nova: sorry, but the damage to society from lethal vigilantism would be much greater than that which results from the occasional theft of $10,000.

--Now you are preaching. If you can demonstrate this (which perhaps you can since $10,000 wasn't precisely considered) then I would agree ($10,000 is lot of money to a grad. student). However, to determine this I would need to figure out how many screw ups the vigilaties make. Perhaps one could counter the vigilanti problem by simply making them responsible for the decision to take a human life (if they screw up they pay the price of taking a human life).