ST Galaxy vs Star Destroyers

[Straha]

So noones debating that 500 ISDs could defeat every combat starship in the ST galaxy?

This is actually a lot more interesting...

[Straha]

Is it possible that the recoil is there just like laser is in turbo-laser, namely as a hang-around from the olden days so that the gunner can feel his gun fire, and maybe as a way to expend bleed off energy? This could also make for quick fix matinence in battle, "If you're getting recoil, but not emmitting a beam the problem is in the firing mechanism, whereas if you're not getting recoil at all the problem is that you're not getting power."

Just a thought.

[Castor Troy]

From the OP...

No cheap stuff like time travel

Well, if you consider that time travel, nevermind what I said.

[Castor Troy]

From the OP...

No cheap stuff like time travel

Well, if you consider that time travel, nevermind what I said.

I mean nevermind what I said.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

... to explain things. Still, I'd come back and do yours. As you can see, you are not the only person throwing up on the ground over the theory even now (honestly there were a few more than I thought there would be).

So the invisible beam outraces the visible beam. So how do they always end up striking the target at the same time?

The peak power is synced so in theory it'd the same time as the bolt. It is one of the few ways to make that little glowing blob somewhat useful.

1 and 2 are untrue as far as first Death Star is concerned. As for jamming they still wouldn't lose anything by just trying to shoot a few of them down.

They are probably still rushing up to battle stations.

As for 2 we saw battles betwen 5-10 capital ships out of 40 imperial and about 40 rebel. That is not a tiny fraction.

Primary issue is time. You only saw a small period of the time of the firefight.

As for jamming hitting a 3km long ship from distance of few 100km using lightspeed weapons really shouldn't be that much of a problem.

See ST:FC.

[Kamakazie Sith]

No, stupid. The entire beam does damage, but the recoil only lasts for the activation. If the recoil was from the actual damaging shot, the barrel would stay retracted until the beam was turned off. The barrel retracts and returns while GT level energy is still being emited. THEREFORE, it is not the beam causing the recoil. THEREFORE we should not be surprised or bothered if other weapons have visible recoil NOT commiserate with the damaging section of the shot.

Besides, genius, unless that sleeve weighs more than a 2 km sphere of iron, it should accelerate backward MUCH MORE QUICKLY. That's two pieces of evidence why the barrel-retraction is independent of the counter-momentum from the destructive emmissions of turbolasers.

So it just couldn't possibly be some sort of compensation system that prevents the recoil of the weapon from crushing itself, right? Oh and I LOVE how you pretend to know what recoil would look like when you know damn well they have technology available to compensate for this.

[Kamakazie Sith]

An optical illusion? LOL. Ok, so it just appears to redirect in flight? Like you said; we don't need a mechanism, we just need proof it happens in canon. A swiveling continous beam with a "rider" bolt and a power ramp-up can explain this. How can a blob of matter unconnected to the cannon?

Yes, unless you wish to add some official level evidence that the Empire can actually control the direction of energy weapons mid-flight?

There's also a quote somewhere about how if it weren't for recoil braces or some type of system the recoil from the turbolasers on a Star Destroyer would rip it in half.

[Kamakazie Sith]

An optical illusion? LOL. Ok, so it just appears to redirect in flight? Like you said; we don't need a mechanism, we just need proof it happens in canon. A swiveling continous beam with a "rider" bolt and a power ramp-up can explain this. How can a blob of matter unconnected to the cannon?

Let's nail the coffin, shall we? In ROTJ, Wedge pitches his nose up after diving under the medical frigate right after "You cut left, I'll take the leader" and we cut to his cockpit. He fires two bolts at the Interceptor. Both the Interceptor and Wedge's X-Wing are pitching and climbing simultaneously. The bolts fire, and do not change position relative to the cockpit interior . In other words, the bolts pitch up and follow the motion of the fighter that fired them after they left the cannon. If these were independent, already-fired projectiles moving at sublight speed, their trajectory would be fixed after firing. A pitching starfighter would see his bolts converge and sink relative to the pilot's plane of orientation. Anyway, this conclusively proves the starfighter laser bolts are still controlled or connected to the fighter as it moves. The behavior is completely consistent with a sublight-propogating "disturbance" moving along a continuous lightspeed beam.

Even more telling, the bolts converge off-axis from the fighter's nose/midpoint between the cannons. Massive particle projectiles would be thought to continue along the axis of the cannon; off-axis/adjustable converge points seem more reconcilable with beam weapons than projectile ("bolt") ones.

You say direction changing energy weapons, I say optical illusion. This is speculation of the HIGHEST degree, and I find it amusing as well.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Here it is.

On pg. 248 of Slave Ship, the following narrative description is provided of the recoil absorption mechanism on a typical turbolaser cannon: "the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal

[Kamakazie Sith]

Crap, that was taken from this page.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam2.html

Anyway as you can see the evidence of bracing and recoil-dissipation casings means that what we seen is not necessarily what we have. Thus, you can't claim what the SPHA-Ts recoil should look like.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. TL's defy most explanations we can come up with our understanding. It's best to toss aside trying to come up with an explanation, and focus on what we see. And what we see is highly variable speeds, high energy output, and a huge range.

I agree with SirNitram at this point. I continued only because I didn't want it to be over so soon.

[Alyeska]

Suck it.

Something worth noting. The entire body of the SPHA-T rocks when it initialy fires the weapon. That could very well be recoil and the recoil is mostly absorbed by some sort of compensation system, but the "kick" from the very start of the firing sequence still bleeds through.

[SirNitram]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. TL's defy most explanations we can come up with our understanding. It's best to toss aside trying to come up with an explanation, and focus on what we see. And what we see is highly variable speeds, high energy output, and a huge range.

I agree with SirNitram at this point. I continued only because I didn't want it to be over so soon.

Been there, done that....

Look folks, here it is. Alot of this is impossible. Even a massless, invisible beam moving at cee will have recoil.. And all those newtons Primus calc'd are how much it should have. Now, he points out it's rather unlikely that the barrels weigh as much as a 2Km ball of metal, and he's quite right. The rub is the invisible beam theory doesn't address recoil at all. It should still generate recoill(U/c, folks), but we don't see it. So. Eh. We're back where we started. Shit don't make sense.

Is there a limited tracking effect? Yep. Evidence shows it. Is there a limited antigrav effect, IE, rifle shots don't drop as they should? Yep. Evidence shows it. Enormous yields, extreme ranges, wierd propagation rates? All shown. EU descriptions just increase the number of odd things showing up. Stop stressing. The relevent fact is this: Even an SW slugfest is equal to or greater than an ST slugfest. Take it and run, fellas.

[Mad]

Let's nail the coffin, shall we? In ROTJ, Wedge pitches his nose up after diving under the medical frigate right after "You cut left, I'll take the leader" and we cut to his cockpit. He fires two bolts at the Interceptor. Both the Interceptor and Wedge's X-Wing are pitching and climbing simultaneously. The bolts fire, and do not change position relative to the cockpit interior . In other words, the bolts pitch up and follow the motion of the fighter that fired them after they left the cannon. If these were independent, already-fired projectiles moving at sublight speed, their trajectory would be fixed after firing. A pitching starfighter would see his bolts converge and sink relative to the pilot's plane of orientation. Anyway, this conclusively proves the starfighter laser bolts are still controlled or connected to the fighter as it moves. The behavior is completely consistent with a sublight-propogating "disturbance" moving along a continuous lightspeed beam.

Even more telling, the bolts converge off-axis from the fighter's nose/midpoint between the cannons. Massive particle projectiles would be thought to continue along the axis of the cannon; off-axis/adjustable converge points seem more reconcilable with beam weapons than projectile ("bolt") ones.

You say direction changing energy weapons, I say optical illusion. This is speculation of the HIGHEST degree, and I find it amusing as well.

I'd like to see an explanation for how it could be an optical illusion.

Also, here's HDS' image of the ESB bolt tracking.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'd like to see an explanation for how it could be an optical illusion.

Also, here's HDS' image of the ESB bolt tracking.

Because last time I checked energy weapons don't change course, and there is no mention of this technology ANYWHERE in Star Wars canon. At least that I know of. Do you have something?

It's kind of like the huge BoP from STIV. Now either the Klingons have technology that allows them to increase the size of their ships by MANY MANY times or it was an optical illusion.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Because last time I checked energy weapons don't change course, and there is no mention of this technology ANYWHERE in Star Wars canon. At least that I know of. Do you have something?

Last time I checked, turrets are supposed to be able to turn. If they can turn slightly while firing, the beam itself would change course. It lacks the credulity required for it to qualify as a "blooper".

[Kamakazie Sith]

Because last time I checked energy weapons don't change course, and there is no mention of this technology ANYWHERE in Star Wars canon. At least that I know of. Do you have something?

Last time I checked, turrets are supposed to be able to turn. If they can turn slightly while firing, the beam itself would change course. It lacks the credulity required for it to qualify as a "blooper".

So you are saying that the visible portion is actually part of a targeting beam and when that visible portion hits the target the invisible high energy portion is fired at c to hit the target at the same time?

Does that make any sense at all to you? Why even use it? It would take too long at distances of one light second.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So you are saying that the visible portion is actually part of a targeting beam and when that visible portion hits the target the invisible high energy portion is fired at c to hit the target at the same time?

Does that make any sense at all to you? Why even use it? It would take too long at distances of one light second.

Since Mad's here, I should let him explain his own theory himself, but basically, there is no separate targeting beam. There is just one beam, with a Preparatory Phase and a Main Phase. With a long range shot, beam will still have a Preparatory phase of comparable length to a short range shot, and the computer would attempt to time it so the bolt looks like it hits at the same time as the main phase begins. What we would see is the visible part moving a lot faster (say the much higher speed of the DS superlaser). That gives a tiny bit of utility to the inevitable bolt.

In any case, I was replying in response to your de facto request for a Blooper Excision, and pointing out that a beam turning in midflight is not so absurd as to warrant excision, unless you already have a preconceived notion it must be a bolt, so there is no connection to the weapon.

[Straha]

I'd like to see an explanation for how it could be an optical illusion.

He is pulling up at a constant rate, is it possible that the 'Laser' is pulling up because of Momentum imparted on it by Wedge's A-Wing?

Also, here's HDS' image of the ESB bolt tracking.

The flare doesn't fully form untill a few frames into the shot. It is possible that the reason it looks like it changes angles is because you're basing it off of the flare which forms 'bottom up' so to speak, making early calculations of their destination hard to do.


Quite frankly, it seems to me that we should probably just say "Turbo lasers WORK damnit!" and leave it be, at least untill Revenge of the Sith comes out.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He is pulling up at a constant rate, is it possible that the 'Laser' is pulling up because of Momentum imparted on it by Wedge's A-Wing

If it is a bolt, and it already left the ship, it has no connection with the ship, like a gun's bullets. Only if it is still attached to the ship in some way could it be influenced by the plane.

[Ender]

3 years 14 days later, we're still at it.

[Straha]

He is pulling up at a constant rate, is it possible that the 'Laser' is pulling up because of Momentum imparted on it by Wedge's A-Wing

If it is a bolt, and it already left the ship, it has no connection with the ship, like a gun's bullets. Only if it is still attached to the ship in some way could it be influenced by the plane.

If I throw a ball up in a train it'll keep going forward even though nothing is acting on it. The A-Wing there is pulling up at a constant rate, which would make a projectile go up at the same rate as well, explainng why it looks like the bolts are tracking with the ship.

[Kamakazie Sith]

3 years 14 days later, we're still at it.

What are you talking about? At what?

[SirNitram]

3 years 14 days later, we're still at it.

What are you talking about? At what?

A reference, I beleive, to how long the invisible beam theory has been around and being debated.

It's kind of a silly comment to make; should I cite the years since the first plasma theory was made by an official source, but whatever.

[Ender]

3 years 14 days later, we're still at it.

What are you talking about? At what?

A reference, I beleive, to how long the invisible beam theory has been around and being debated.

It's kind of a silly comment to make; should I cite the years since the first plasma theory was made by an official source, but whatever.

So long as you can also cite how long we've known a temperature at which an incandescent surface will glow green, sure.

The invisible beam theory is consistant with observations. I'm yet to see another theory that is.