Acupunture not just placebo?

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Acupunture not just placebo?

Post by Dahak »

A new study published in Neuroimage found that acupuncture may be more than just a mere placebo effect.
I find it intriguing, as I was contemplating some "alternative" methods of treating my essential tremor...
Acupuncture activates the brain
Andreas von Bubnoff

Medicinal use of needles does more than placebos.

Needles are used in alternative therapy to treat illness, pain and even addiction.

Acupuncture has a measurable, if mysterious, effect on the brain, UK scientists have found. The study adds to evidence that patients benefit from acupuncture not simply because of their expectations.

The research team used brain imaging to show that treatment with genuine needles activates brain areas beyond the ones that light up when trick needles are used. "This is the first brain-imaging study that has shown an effect beyond placebo," says George Lewith, an expert in complementary medicine at the University of Southampton who led the study.

Acupuncture is an ancient Chinese treatment for illness, pain or even addiction, which uses fine needles in defined points of the body. The mechanism behind this is far from understood, and clinical trials into acupuncture have had mixed results. "It has worked in some trials, it hasn't worked in others, it's very complicated," says Ted Kaptchuk, an acupuncture researcher at Harvard University in Boston, Massachusetts. Many studies have suggested that the placebo effect accounts for most of the benefits seen.

Part of this confusion may be thanks to the use of badly defined controls in acupuncture tests, experts say. Some studies use needles in non-acupuncture points, for example. But this may simply prove that needling is an effective treatment.

Stage dagger

For a better placebo, Lewith's team used a retractable needle that doesn't really penetrate the skin, but tricks the patients into thinking that it does. "It disappears into its handle like a stage dagger," Lewith says. This tricked the patients into believing they were being treated when they weren't.

The study group, which consisted of 14 patients with arthritic pain in their thumbs, was also treated with both real acupuncture, and with blunt needles that didn't penetrate the skin. In the last case the patients were told that the procedure should not have any effect.

The researchers then used positron emission tomography to measure brain activity. Both placebo treatment and real treatment activated the brain in areas known to respond to opiates: painkillers released by the brain.

Insula effect

True acupuncture also increased activity in a different brain area called the insula, which is part of the cerebral cortex. It's not clear what this activity means, says Lewith, but it indicates some sort of real effect. "What we have demonstrated is that acupuncture is partially modulated by expectation, but is probably also modulated by a real treatment effect," he says. They report their findings in the journal NeuroImage1.

Lewith adds that his own previous work has indicated that expectation accounts for some of acupuncture's benefits. In a study of people with chronic neck pain, they found the placebo effect accounted for about 80% of pain relief2.

Kaptchuk says that the study should help researchers to design better clinical trials of acupuncture in the future. "This study gives a clarification of the possible mechanisms by which acupuncture works, and by understanding the mechanisms we can design better placebos," he says.

References
Pariente J., White P., Frackowiak , Richard S. J. & Lewith G. Neuroimage, 25. 1161 - 1167 (2005). | Article | PubMed |
White P., Lewith G., Prescott P. & Conway J. Ann. Intern. Med., 141. 911 - 919 (2004). | PubMed |
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Re: Acupunture not just placebo?

Post by Lord Zentei »

Dahak wrote:A new study published in Neuroimage found that acupuncture may be more than just a mere placebo effect.
I find it intriguing, as I was contemplating some "alternative" methods of treating my essential tremor...
My advice: absolutely do not trust any kind of alternative "medicine" at all. Even if this study is vindicated - and I'll beleive that when I see it - scientific medicine is vastly more sophisticated.

IIRC, medical journals have allowed fraudulent articles to slip through their screening process before, such as the debaclé regarding prayer helping women's fertility. Just because one study appears to support the woo-woo crowd does not mean that it has any substance.
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Re: Acupunture not just placebo?

Post by Dahak »

Lord Zentei wrote:
Dahak wrote:A new study published in Neuroimage found that acupuncture may be more than just a mere placebo effect.
I find it intriguing, as I was contemplating some "alternative" methods of treating my essential tremor...
My advice: absolutely do not trust any kind of alternative "medicine" at all. Even if this study is vindicated - and I'll beleive that when I see it - scientific medicine is vastly more sophisticated.

IIRC, medical journals have allowed fraudulent articles to slip through their screening process before, such as the debaclé regarding prayer helping women's fertility. Just because one study appears to support the woo-woo crowd does not mean that it has any substance.
Well, as the "best" scientific medicine that has a positive effect on my ailment are either (in descending effect) some beta-blockers, anti-depressants, and barbiturates, I am not exactly embracing them joyfully and choose not to take them, as my neurologist suggested as well.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Your neurologist suggested that you not take these treatments?

Anyway, if science based medicine works badly does not mean that alternative "medicine" works better, that it workd at all, nor that it is safe.
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Post by Dahak »

Lord Zentei wrote:Your neurologist suggested that you not take these treatments?

Anyway, if science based medicine works badly does not mean that alternative "medicine" works better, that it workd at all, nor that it is safe.
Yes, she suggested it; because my tremor isn't very strong, and the side effects of either drugs would not really be worth it.
I rather have my little tremor than have to take medicine with some side effects I really don't want to have.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

OK, then you should follow his advise. And remember that the so-called alternative "medicine" can have side effects of it's own and it is generally not tested for them any more than for it's alleged efficacy.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Other scientist will probably perform similiar experiments and see if the results are duplicated. If acupuncture turns out to be worth something then that's great, it'll be one more tool we have to better the human experience.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

It all depends on the validity of the placebo. These "trick" needles... I'd like to know more about how they are effective as such.

When the placebo consists of needles used on non-acupuncture points, these tests tend to come out negative.
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Post by Stark »

Acupunture works: anyone suggesting otherwise is silly.

However, it's extremely limited in application. If you strain your shoulder or your knee, it can help: if you've got deadly, deadly cancer, its got buckleys. I've used acupunture many times, and it's a quick solution for various muscle problems, and useless for anything else.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

The suspicion that acupuncture may work (and not by the regulating the flow of chi BS) has been known for quite some time.

It was thought to stimulate release of endophins ?sp (natural opiods). Opiods are of course the class of pain killers which include, morphine, pethidine, heroin etc. The tested this hypothesis by injecting people with opiod antagonists (drugs which would counter opiods), such as the "anti-heroin overdose" drugs, naloxone and naltrexone. It was known that after application of opiod antagonists, acupuncture lost its effect. To make sure this wasn't a fluke, they tried several different opiod antagonists.

Now acupuncture has claimed to have other effects, however AFAIK they haven't been subjected to that much study as its effects on pain relief (in Australia acupuncture is covered by the Government under medicare, but only for pain relief purposes).

I once wrote an assignment for medical school on this, but after an extensive search of my computer, its not there, meaning I must have deleted the paper. Damn it.
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Post by Veramocor »

Unfortunately the study is only single blinded. The person performing the acupunture new whether it was a sham treatment or not.

Of course a single blinded study is better than a non-blinded study so there is progress in testing alternative therapy.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

Veramocor wrote:Unfortunately the study is only single blinded. The person performing the acupunture new whether it was a sham treatment or not.

Of course a single blinded study is better than a non-blinded study so there is progress in testing alternative therapy.
Single blinded tests for medical tests are about as useful as a single leg is for marathon runners. When we have an independantly confirmed double blind test I'll listen.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Why would the knowledge of the medical researchers that they were using placebos make any difference in the patient's reactions?
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Post by Lord Zentei »

HemlockGrey wrote:Why would the knowledge of the medical researchers that they were using placebos make any difference in the patient's reactions?
Psychology. The patients pick up on the expectations of the testers. Unless the testers have a 100% perfect poker face, which of course usually they don't. In short, things that pass single blind tests can fail double blind tests.
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Post by PainRack »

There are a pletheora of articles supporting Spinal manipulation Treatment as well as acpunture, because they provide measurable relief of pain in ways we simply don't know yet.

Frankly, a doctor first goal is to "Do no harm". If it doesn't hurt the patient, anything goes, including yes, prayer.

So folks, never seek alternative medicine. Seek complentary medicine instead.
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Post by Trytostaydead »

Acupuncture is actually taught in a lot of medical schools today. It does have "mysterious" benefits that it confers. As to whether it works as the old eastern medicine practitioners say it does is another matter. But the usage of it is indeed gaining popularity in modern medicine.
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Post by Trytostaydead »

PainRack wrote:
So folks, never seek alternative medicine. Seek complentary medicine instead.
If you're talking about complemntary medicine as in herbs or "natural" medicines, be very very cautious and always in consultation with a doctor. None of the stuff is regulated, and a lot of them are worse than worthless or will do you lots of harm.
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Post by Fire Fly »

I can speak from personal experience that acupuncture does indeed work. I can't explain how any why exactly but it did the trick for me. However, its affects aren't permanent, more or less; the affects last temporarily but on a rather long term basis.

I've always had this nasal congestion problem and my mom really wanted me to see this lady who performed acupuncture. I was really hesitant because I tend to not believe holistic. But my mom was on the verge of begging me to do it so I did it, thinking that the worst that could happen was just experiencing it. The lady stuck a few needles on my face, chest, and legs for fifteen minutes and then I flipped over and she did my neck, back, and legs. Afterwards, I was very lethargic and to my shock and surprise, my congestion cleared up the next day for about 6 months.

There's no harm in not trying it, so long as the person is certified. Sticking needles a millimeter beneath the skin would hardly do any lasting damage. And if you're afraid, I'd seek counsel from others who have experienced it. I can't vouch for everyone else who has tried it, but it did the job for me and it was incredibly relaxing.
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Post by White Haven »

Well, you have two main schools of acupuncture, Eight Principle and Five Element (also known as traditional). 8P is very Western, treating symptom/formula, and is what most people think of when they look at acupuncture. 5E is a bit harder to pin down as it doesn't treat specific symptoms beyond a general sense, and instead tries to address the root causes of them. For obvious reasons, 5E is usually considered bunk, but I can't share that view, skeptic that I am, as my mother is a former RN (Cardiac and ER) and is now a liscenced acupuncturist with her own practice. It's not some panacea cure-all, but it's not make-believe mysticism either.

The other thing that gets acupuncture panned is that in many states, a chiropractor can become a lisenced acupuncturist after an 80-hour correspondence course, while anyone else needs a three-year Masters degree in acupuncture. That tends to separate the crackerjacks from the real deal, b ut most people don't know to even ask about it. Blame the American Medical Association for that.

Interesting side-note, while Five Element is considered 'traditional' acupuncture, it's fallen out of favor in China. My mother actually went to school with at least one Chinese man who came to America because there were better schools for it here.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

There was one huge fucking study finished in germany less
then a year ago called gerac (german accupuncture trails).
Press release and other documentation can be found at gerac.de.
Click on the hier right next to the english flag to get the press release.

The most interesting part of the press release:
Gerac press release wrote: Acupuncture patients need less medication
1,162 patients were included in the lower back pain part of the study. The results six months after finalisation of each therapy type are:
Acupuncture according to the TCM rules was successful among 71.1% of the patients, meaning a reduction of pain and/or a functional improvement as defined by the applied success-measuring instruments. Sham acupuncture was successful in 67.7% of the cases, whereas standard therapy was successful in just 57.6% of the cases.
If one accounts for additional therapies not really allowed in the study protocol such as physical therapy or injections (detected in the telephone interviews afterwards), the success rates drop to 47.6% for TCM acupuncture, 44.2% for sham acupuncture, and only 27.4% for standard therapy. "The proven effect of acupuncture for over six months led to a lower use of medications and other forms of additional therapy in the post-study period in comparison with standard therapy," stated the Principal Investigator for gerac cLBP PD Dr. Michael Haake, Clinic for Orthopaedics, University of Regensburg, Germany.
It greatly amuses me that sham acupuncture was as successfull as the real deal and that both were more successfull then standart therapy.
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Post by Zor »

My mom has been getting acupunture to deal with food alergies (Milk, Tomatoes, soy and a slew of other things) and she had gotten away with eating Pizza today because of it. The Acupunturist told me that it has something to do with Nerves. My opinion on it is that it does work.

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Post by Lord Zentei »

Stark wrote:Acupunture works: anyone suggesting otherwise is silly.

However, it's extremely limited in application. If you strain your shoulder or your knee, it can help: if you've got deadly, deadly cancer, its got buckleys. I've used acupunture many times, and it's a quick solution for various muscle problems, and useless for anything else.
Sounds like it's effects are no different from those of massage, then. I can buy that, but nothing besides without proof.
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Post by PainRack »

Trytostaydead wrote:
PainRack wrote:
So folks, never seek alternative medicine. Seek complentary medicine instead.
If you're talking about complemntary medicine as in herbs or "natural" medicines, be very very cautious and always in consultation with a doctor. None of the stuff is regulated, and a lot of them are worse than worthless or will do you lots of harm.
I'm talking about complentary medicine as in anything that you feel can do you good, PROVIDED you do it in a responsible manner.

Herbal and natural medicines are always a problem. Even when they may be inherently dangerous, there's the problem that quality control means that they can be easily contaiminated.

For acupuncture, the problem lies in the qualifications of the practitioner, not in whether he can put the needles at the right place or wrong(there isn't a single consistent diagram anywhere in the world), but whether the needles are clean and not infected, as well as whether he pierce a artery or some other vulnerable spot.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

PainRack wrote:There are a pletheora of articles supporting Spinal manipulation Treatment as well as acpunture, because they provide measurable relief of pain in ways we simply don't know yet.

Frankly, a doctor first goal is to "Do no harm". If it doesn't hurt the patient, anything goes, including yes, prayer.

So folks, never seek alternative medicine. Seek complentary medicine instead.
I would like to see some of these articles on acupuncture and SMT, provided that they have been published by respected medical journals. This would require there to be proper double blind tests. There aren't any: part of the interest of the quoted article in the OP is that this was supposedly the first indicator that acupuncture is more than just a placebo. Unfortunately, it was only single blinded, hence completely worthless - except as a snake oil sales trick.

The Do Not Harm principle encompasses relying on tratments that have no proven value.
Stark wrote:Acupunture works: anyone suggesting otherwise is silly.
mr friendly guy wrote:The suspicion that acupuncture may work (and not by the regulating the flow of chi BS) has been known for quite some time.
Fire Fly wrote: can speak from personal experience that acupuncture does indeed work. I can't explain how any why exactly but it did the trick for me. However, its affects aren't permanent, more or less; the affects last temporarily but on a rather long term basis.
Zor wrote:My mom has been getting acupunture to deal with food alergies (Milk, Tomatoes, soy and a slew of other things) and she had gotten away with eating Pizza today because of it. The Acupunturist told me that it has something to do with Nerves. My opinion on it is that it does work.
Guys, any amount of anecdotes proves nothing. Placebos "work" for fuck's sake.

As for the Gernan study referenced earlier, I would be less skeptical if it were conducted by people without a vested interest in seeing acupuncture vindicated. Homeopaths will produce "studies" that seem to vindicate homeopathy, but no one in their right minds would take them seriously.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

PainRack wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:
PainRack wrote:
So folks, never seek alternative medicine. Seek complentary medicine instead.
If you're talking about complemntary medicine as in herbs or "natural" medicines, be very very cautious and always in consultation with a doctor. None of the stuff is regulated, and a lot of them are worse than worthless or will do you lots of harm.
I'm talking about complentary medicine as in anything that you feel can do you good, PROVIDED you do it in a responsible manner.

Herbal and natural medicines are always a problem. Even when they may be inherently dangerous, there's the problem that quality control means that they can be easily contaiminated.

For acupuncture, the problem lies in the qualifications of the practitioner, not in whether he can put the needles at the right place or wrong(there isn't a single consistent diagram anywhere in the world), but whether the needles are clean and not infected, as well as whether he pierce a artery or some other vulnerable spot.
The risk is that people will come to beleive that acupuncture is a proper therapy and rely on it when they should be seeking (additional) therapy from a doctor.
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I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
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