Uplifting, why bother?

[speaker-to-trolls]

By uplifting I refer to the idea of genetically engineering animals so they are as intelligent as a human. I have to wonder what possible advantages could be gained by doing this that couldn't be achieved more cheaply with machinery, same with genetically engineered humans, why give people gills if you can build a boat big enough for them to live on or a stilt city ala Kamino? (we could probably do that last one now, it'd just be a really big oil rig) Why make people able to breathe a toxic atmosphere if you can build airtight structures for them instead?, why give people cat-ears when we've done perfectly well without them so far?.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Uh, you're assuming we're actually doing any of that crazy shit. Hint: We're not.

[NPComplete]

In Brin's Uplift books the motivation was prestige.

Galactic civilizations were accorded higher status if they had more Client races (and if their Clients Uplifted grand-Clients, or great-grand-Clients).

On a larger scale, I suppose the Uplift process is analogous to individual reproduction, and that species could be uplifted for the same reasons that people have children (one or more of: loneliness, fear of mortality, curiousity, genetic imperative, wishing to feel superior to something?)

On the seperate subject of GE humans, the obvious answer is that only those modifications which would be cheaper or more effective than technological equivalents would be used. I can see no reason at all to give people 'cat ears', but increased strength, etc is likely to show up in the next 100 years. Olympic atheletes are nearly raised from birth to be good at a given task, so I doubt it will be long before someone starts the process early.

[General Zod]

you're also assuming people would actually want this done to themselves. most don't.

[Chmee]

'Uplift' as I understand it doesn't mean giving humans animal traits, but the reverse -- making animals self-aware and capable of speech/communication.

Probably the most practical reasons to do it, from the selfish human perspective, are to gain smart workers who can operate in environments you can't --- dolphins and orcas would make much better underwater demolition team members than slow humans, if they were just smart enough to use equipment we make for them.

Or, as in Brin's books, dolphins may be inately better at hyperspace navigation than we are because of their different brain structure and their natural need to move rapidly through three dimensions.

[Enforcer Talen]

what poetry would dolphins write?

[Chmee]

what poetry would dolphins write?

Trinary Haiku -- heh, you really need to read Startide Rising ....

[The Third Man]

If we imagine an animal that is sentient but not as intelligent as ourselves (maybe a dolphin qualifies), and we imagine that this species is suffering because its intellect isn't advanced enough to address a certain hazard in its environment, then there might be a moral argument for uplifting.

[Zero]

Most animals on this planet aren't able to do what we do, because they don't have opposable thumbs. It isn't always an intelligence issue... dolphins are very intelligent. Actually, I remember an onion article a while back titled "Dolphins develope opposable thumbs: Oh fuck! says humanity". Just thought it was funny, I guess, but seriously... even if something like a dolphin were slightly smarter, it wouldn't have the hands, so it wouldn't have the ability to make tools, or manipulate the environment the way we do. Humans are unique. Good hands.

[RedImperator]

I imagine we'd do it just to see if we could. And we'd keep doing it for the company, epecially if there are no aliens.

[Civil War Man]

I don't know. If we figure out a way where we are able to communicate with animals, we may find out some rather ugly truths (such as Douglas Adams being right, and humanity being only the third smartest animal on the planet, as opposed to the second ).

[Alyrium Denryle]

what poetry would dolphins write?

Probably better than ours.. hell I dont think they would even need uplifting...

[Molyneux]

you're also assuming people would actually want this done to themselves. most don't.

I would! I most definitely would.

From an engineering perspective, the human body could be SO much better. Heck, we can't even survive underwater or in a low-pressure environment! And as far as physical attractiveness goes...exotic is very often a plus.

Personally, I'd start with a prehensile tail, add either gills or a high-efficiency, high-capability respiratory system, and add a fur coat or skin patterns for aesthetic reasons...and that's just a start.

[Coalition]

Instead of upgrades, how about fixing various problems with human body? I.e. the appendix, the prostate, the spinal column inside the backbone where back injuries could paralyze you, potentials for carpal tunnel, and others.

After that, we could go for better strength, endurance, fat burning (body automatically stores some fat, but beyond a level the body starts burning it faster), bone growth (to avoid arthritis), and other upgrades.

Basically, we first go through the human body with an engineer's eye to find the mistakes,and correct those. After that, we improve it.

[Castor Troy]

About the gills: Why not? Who wouldn't want to be like Kevin Cosner in Waterworld?

[Elheru Aran]

About the gills: Why not? Who wouldn't want to be like Kevin Cosner in Waterworld?

Too much modifications necessary for that to be plausible even remotely anytime soon, sorry, though we could easily do webbed feet with some minor surgery... they'd be basically useless though, unless you wanted frog-flippers.

[Alyrium Denryle]

About the gills: Why not? Who wouldn't want to be like Kevin Cosner in Waterworld?

Too much modifications necessary for that to be plausible even remotely anytime soon, sorry, though we could easily do webbed feet with some minor surgery... they'd be basically useless though, unless you wanted frog-flippers.

And I do

[Chmee]

About the gills: Why not? Who wouldn't want to be like Kevin Cosner in Waterworld?

Too much modifications necessary for that to be plausible even remotely anytime soon, sorry, though we could easily do webbed feet with some minor surgery... they'd be basically useless though, unless you wanted frog-flippers.

And I do

Or Namor's little ankle-wings .....

[Alyrium Denryle]

Too much modifications necessary for that to be plausible even remotely anytime soon, sorry, though we could easily do webbed feet with some minor surgery... they'd be basically useless though, unless you wanted frog-flippers.

And I do

Or Namor's little ankle-wings .....

No... no I want webbed feet. I swim enough and seeing as I want to work with aquatic salamanders and other amphibians/aquatic reptiles, I figure webbing will come in handy

[Chmee]

And I do

Or Namor's little ankle-wings .....

No... no I want webbed feet. I swim enough and seeing as I want to work with aquatic salamanders and other amphibians/aquatic reptiles, I figure webbing will come in handy

Fair enough .... and salamandars, btw, are extremely cool. There were a couple ponds and lakes near where I played as a kid that were full of 'em.

[salm]

and add a fur coat or skin patterns for aesthetic
reasons...and that's just a start.

Tatooes are your friend. You don´t need no fance shmanzy gen stuff to get a skin pattern. just get some ink under your skin.

Like the lizardman:

[Molyneux]

Instead of upgrades, how about fixing various problems with human body? I.e. the appendix, the prostate, the spinal column inside the backbone where back injuries could paralyze you, potentials for carpal tunnel, and others.

After that, we could go for better strength, endurance, fat burning (body automatically stores some fat, but beyond a level the body starts burning it faster), bone growth (to avoid arthritis), and other upgrades.

Basically, we first go through the human body with an engineer's eye to find the mistakes,and correct those. After that, we improve it.

Hey, the prostate is a GOOD thing...ask any sexually active gay male (or anyone who's experimented in that direction). We just need a way to prevent cancer in that area.

Tatooes are your friend. You don´t need no fance shmanzy gen stuff to get a skin pattern. just get some ink under your skin.

Well, tattoos are one option, but I was thinking of maybe something changeable...and I'd rather have a fur coat than full-body tattoos, to tell the truth.

Now, a coat of fur with whatever color patterns you want in it, THAT would be cool...

[Solauren]

Reason for Uplifting animals;
Cheap Slave Labor not covered by equal rights laws.

Take a dog, make it humanoid and change some other traits, and you have a nice loyal and useful slave.

Reason for Genetic Modifications of Humans
Increase survivability in hostile environments

[Molyneux]

Reason for Uplifting animals;
Cheap Slave Labor not covered by equal rights laws.

Take a dog, make it humanoid and change some other traits, and you have a nice loyal and useful slave.

Reason for Genetic Modifications of Humans
Increase survivability in hostile environments

Meh...anything that involves bringing an animal up to human or near-human-level intelligence is going to spark off a move towards extending the legal definition of "person". I tend to think that would be a good thing, though; considering how helpful dogs are now, think how good for society it could be to have an influx of new members who are naturally gregarious, loyal and playful.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Reason for Uplifting animals;
Cheap Slave Labor not covered by equal rights laws.

Take a dog, make it humanoid and change some other traits, and you have a nice loyal and useful slave.

Reason for Genetic Modifications of Humans
Increase survivability in hostile environments

Now, see, I think it would be cheaper to just use humans for slave labour (as many do these days), I mean, brains are really complicated, are sure that legal slave labour would be enough of an advantage to warrant the kind of expense you'd need spend to make a dog capable of doing whatever work you've got in mind.

And I also don't see why anyone would alter the human genome when it would be possible to build airtight buildings instead. Plus there's the moral issues, if you engineer someone to be able to live in zero gee then you prevent them from ever being able to live on a planet, and unless you're talking about some kind of feaky retrovirus type thing, they won't have a choice about it.