Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 04:22pm

BTW, despite the inherenet cool factor of Vorlons and their encounter suits, I don't see how their fleet could stand up to SW technology. Their psychic powers are the only things the First Ones could use to give themselves a chance for the win.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-24 04:26pm

In a conventional battle against the DS, The B5 races are screwed. While the Battle Crab DID survive the 500 megaton nuke (it was scene turning away from the blast), 200 gigatons is most certainly sufficient to destroy one.

That is why I say the only way the first ones could win would be by telepathy, and it has been well documented. The episode in question where the eye of Z'ha'dum took control of all beings on the White Star was the hour of the wolf. The White Star went to Z'Ha'Dum to look for sheridan, and as soon as they got there, the eye began to mind control them. The only thing that saved them was Lennier's planning. (If he didn't press a button every 30 seconds, the ship would automatically jump to hyperspace).

Considering the amount of success the Grand Moff in control of the death star would have had in fighting the B5 races, he will not have thought of this precautionary measure and will have walked into the eye's influence.

It should also be noted that the shadows can rebuild the eye extremely fast. It was destroyed in Z'Ha'Dum and was already rebuilt and fully functional within a week.

This tactic is only availble when the Death Star goes to Z'Ha'Dum

next issue: vorlons.

IF a vorlon some how got into the death star, he would wreak havok. However, this is an example of "I'm in the perfect place let's not worry about how I got there"

Give me a viable way for the vorlon to get inside the death star, and I'll chalk up another weapon at the first one's disposal.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 04:29pm

BTW, the Vorlons have never been seen to have the powers of telepathy that the Shadows have. In fact, Kosh II was in a situation where he SHOULD have used that to take over some of the B5 security forces that were trying to kill him, but he never did. I don't think the Vorlons could stop the DS, despite their encounter suited coolness.

I really would like to know what the range on the Eye is, because that would really be B5's only chance.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-24 04:51pm

Graeme Dice wrote:
That book is not an episode and is therefore not a valid source of information.

And just what do you base this on?

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 04:58pm

XaLEv wrote:
Graeme Dice wrote:
That book is not an episode and is therefore not a valid source of information.
And just what do you base this on?

The fact that it isn't one of the episodes of course.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-24 05:02pm

Graeme Dice wrote:
XaLEv wrote: And just what do you base this on?
The fact that it isn't one of the episodes of course.

Ah. Circular reasoning. How nice.

You imply that only the episodes are canon. Why?

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 05:09pm

XaLEv wrote:
Graeme Dice wrote:
XaLEv wrote: And just what do you base this on?
The fact that it isn't one of the episodes of course.
Ah. Circular reasoning. How nice.

You imply that only the episodes are canon. Why?

Why don't you show me why I should accept anything other than the episodes.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-24 05:25pm

Graeme Dice wrote: Why don't you show me why I should accept anything other than the episodes.

No. You made the claim, you back it up.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 05:27pm

XaLEv wrote:No. You made the claim, you back it up.

Fine. My argument is that nothing other than the episodes really occurred in the Babylon Five universe.

Now, where's your evidence that they did.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-24 05:59pm

Graeme Dice wrote:
Fine. My argument is that nothing other than the episodes really occurred in the Babylon Five universe.

Now, where's your evidence that they did.

You're still trying to shift the burden of proof on to me.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 06:02pm

Do you accept In the Beginning, even though that wasn't an episode? How about Third Space? Crusade?

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 06:09pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Do you accept In the Beginning, even though that wasn't an episode? How about Third Space? Crusade?

They were all televised episodes of Babylon five, even if some were longer than the standard length.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 06:10pm

XaLEv wrote:You're still trying to shift the burden of proof on to me.

Yes, I am, because you are the one who wishes to use them as sources. If you are not willing to back up that stance, then you cannot use them as sources.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-24 07:30pm

Graeme Dice wrote: Fine. My argument is that nothing other than the episodes really occurred in the Babylon Five universe.

Now, where's your evidence that they did.

Say it with my now:

Because JMS says so.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-24 07:39pm

Master of Ossus wrote: In fact, Kosh II was in a situation where he SHOULD have used that to take over some of the B5 security forces that were trying to kill him, but he never did. I don't think the Vorlons could stop the DS, despite their encounter suited coolness.

You're forgetting one crucial fact ossus, there were psy factors working against ulkesh (Kosh 2).

Namely:

Kosh inside Sheridan
Vorlon Enchanced Lyta
And of course, the nigh omnipotent Lorien.

It was because of these factors that Ulkesh did not mind rape the security force.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-07-24 07:54pm

I'm still waiting for some actual evidence for this ability.

b5wars info..

Those are not episodes of B5.

BUt was documented within the official chronology of b5, along with the episodes.. so they did happen in the b5 universe.. hence lyta is that powerful pyschically, and a vorlon more so.

20 troopers can hold it at bay?.. with what?..rapid ppg fire from multiple sources, and a portion of the stations power only managed to crack the armour open...

Which a million stormtroopers can do quite easily.

true.. if u can get a million troopers in one corridor shooting at the encounter suit.

Prove that it is capable of this phasing.

fact 1: season 4 episode "falling towards apothesis" shows ulkesh and kosh phasing/going through the hull and structures of the b5 station, as they fought., finally fighting outside in space itself, as they expand to cover an area greter than the cross section of b5.

fact2: no ppg fire was shown to have an effect, or even hit, ulkesh, once he was out of his encounter suit.

So bring some heavy weapons or Jedi into the battle.

was that one of the rules of the thread.. that a force user gets involved?..
nevermind.. how many sith or jedi out there anyway, at the same time... and compare that to the totality of the number of vorlons and shadows..

Oh yes, they are going to be able to drain all of the energy from a reactor several trillion times more powerful than any they have ever seen.

i suppose i could go on about this.. but it will come down to whether or not u think first ones are capable of producing planet shattering energies.. which i dont think u do.

temperature drop,
-------------------------------
No different than energy drain.

??...
do u think habitable quarters, bridge, super laser, and shield operations rooms, etc will have same temperatures as the reactor, or areas around it.

Shadow ships cannot phase through solid matter.

b5wars state they can.. even if u dont take that into consideration the very nature of b5 hyperspace travel will allow them to bypass shields and matter..

I said to name the episode. It never happened in any episode, so therefore they cannot accomplish this.

ok..lets leave halfphasing out for a while, and focusing on phasing, and b5 hyperspace travel.

In the begining.. the minbari where doing a pretty good job of using jumppoints to rip up ea capital ships..

In season 4 episode "endgame" franklin made comments to garibaldi asking if he got the coordinates right for marcus's whitestar.. coordinates required for whitestar to enter mars atmosphere via b5 hyperspace...
stating that if the coordinates are wrong the slightest, the jumppoint would plought into the ground and destroy the whole place...
scene also indicates that jump point formation, for a whitestar, can be made accurate to within a few feet.

there are also jms commentaries describing the nature of hyperspace and the care that must be taken for exiting out of hyperspace, in case ships appear inside other objects, such as planets.. Unless of course one wants to use this as a form of weapon..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no body was shown after the centauri weapon stopped hitting the shadow....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that would be why they didn't attack Londo, or anyone else, and why Morden was horrified at their deaths.

morden was hardly concerned with that particular shadow being hit.. he was horrified when london pressd the button that nuked the island where the shadows the rest of the shadows were residing.

That book is not an episode and is therefore not a valid source of information.

books are approved sources of information, and are included in the b5 official chronology.
events that occured in books, and short stories, have been entered alongside those events that occured in episodes...even graphic novels.. such as "in Valens Name", and "Shadows past and present".

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 08:54pm

Shadow WarChief wrote:
Graeme Dice wrote: Fine. My argument is that nothing other than the episodes really occurred in the Babylon Five universe.

Now, where's your evidence that they did.
Say it with my now:

Because JMS says so.

Good some progress.

Now, where and when did he say it?

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 09:13pm

adam warlock wrote:
I'm still waiting for some actual evidence for this ability.
b5wars info..

BUt was documented within the official chronology of b5, along with the episodes.. so they did happen in the b5 universe.. hence lyta is that powerful pyschically, and a vorlon more so.

I'm still waiting for someone to actually provide the JMS quote instead of assuming that the entire world knows about it.

true.. if u can get a million troopers in one corridor shooting at the encounter suit.

Don't be facetious. Blasters cause more damage to people than PPG's, and actually leave craters in walls. It would take even less fire to breach the armour.

fact 1: season 4 episode "falling towards apothesis" shows ulkesh and kosh phasing/going through the hull and structures of the b5 station, as they fought., finally fighting outside in space itself, as they expand to cover an area greter than the cross section of b5.

fact2: no ppg fire was shown to have an effect, or even hit, ulkesh, once he was out of his encounter suit.

If they truly had such amazing psychic and physical abilities then they shouldn't need the encounter suits at all. Just project the image they want into other's minds.

So bring some heavy weapons or Jedi into the battle.

was that one of the rules of the thread.. that a force user gets involved?..
nevermind.. how many sith or jedi out there anyway, at the same time... and compare that to the totality of the number of vorlons and shadows..[/quote]

And then make each Jedi worth about a dozen first ones based on theur telekinetic ability alone.

i suppose i could go on about this.. but it will come down to whether or not u think first ones are capable of producing planet shattering energies.. which i dont think u do.

No, it comes down to the fact that they were never shown to drain anywhere _near_ enough energy from their surroundings to even cause a dent in the DS output. If they did, then the ISA ships would have frozen in nanoseconds.

temperature drop,
-------------------------------
No different than energy drain.

??...
do u think habitable quarters, bridge, super laser, and shield operations rooms, etc will have same temperatures as the reactor, or areas around it.[/quote]

No, I actually understand that you can only reduce temperatures by removing energy. Since the Death Star can supply energy _far_ faster than the first ones can remove it the temperature should only change to a small degree.

b5wars state they can.. even if u dont take that into consideration the very nature of b5 hyperspace travel will allow them to bypass shields and matter..

Which they do _all_ the time of course.

ok..lets leave halfphasing out for a while, and focusing on phasing, and b5 hyperspace travel.

In the begining.. the minbari where doing a pretty good job of using jumppoints to rip up ea capital ships..

Assuming of course that a jump point will be able to open within the shields and near the interference caused by a race that already has a very good understanding of hyperspace.

In season 4 episode "endgame" franklin made comments to garibaldi asking if he got the coordinates right for marcus's whitestar.. coordinates required for whitestar to enter mars atmosphere via b5 hyperspace...
stating that if the coordinates are wrong the slightest, the jumppoint would plought into the ground and destroy the whole place...

"The hole place" was an area several kilometres across at the most. The Death Star is 160km in diameter.

morden was hardly concerned with that particular shadow being hit..

The shadows did absolutely _nothing_ once they were fired upon. They didn't defend themselves, and the intent of the scene was to show them being killed.

books are approved sources of information, and are included in the b5 official chronology.
events that occured in books, and short stories, have been entered alongside those events that occured in episodes...even graphic novels.. such as "in Valens Name", and "Shadows past and present".

I'm waiting for someone to provide the quote that actually states this to be the case.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-07-24 10:40pm

I'm still waiting for someone to actually provide the JMS quote instead of assuming that the entire world knows about it.

are you doing this on purpose??

nevertheless its events that happened in genius loci (short story), to dream in the city of sorrows (novel), In valens name (graphic novel), shadows past and present (graphic novel), have been included in official chronology of babylon 5, first printed in the official b5 magazine, and then reprinted in book form.

the fact that events occuring in stories within novels, being alongside those events that occured in stories shown in episodes speaks for itself..

as for b5wars info

"When other licensees needed imformation an ship configurations or weapons capabilities, we referred them to the Agents of Gaming books (such as the one you are holding in your hands). When we were in production and engaged in writing the episodes or the mapping out of sets, if I was not available to answer a specific question on a technichal area covered by AoG... the people involved were directed to AoG books. Whenever Aog's miniatures showed up on set, there was always a feeding frenzy of the sort usually associated with an unlucky cow falling into a river filled with piranha.
What I'm saying, in this roundabout way, is that if you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy, canonical authority, and the best of the best when it comes to BABYLON 5 licensing and gaming... you've come to the right place.
Enjoy. "

thats from jms.

If they truly had such amazing psychic and physical abilities then they shouldn't need the encounter suits at all. Just project the image they want into other's minds.

u miss one of the more important points of the encounter suits... that the vorlons do not want to be recognise... once they come out of that encounter suit, they trigger race programming that makes them recognisable to anyone from the race that they have influenced, as indicated in season 2 epp "fall of the night". unless they turn downright nasty and decide to no longer play as everyones religious symbol (ulkesh).

also the vorlons also go around hidden in other beings, like ulkesh sometimes hides within lyta,..or put sentient pieces of themselves in other beings, like kosh did to sheriden.

And then make each Jedi worth about a dozen first ones based on theur telekinetic ability alone.

??.. erm u think a telekenisis is over telepathy.. what good would telekenisis be if the person using it is blocked from using it by a telepathic, or controled, or mindfriend.. nevertheless the vorlons are capable of telekenitic equivalent of a force push and choke (as kosh demonstrated on sheriden).. though the exact extent of their telekinetic abilities is largely unknown..

as for the first ones telekinetic abilities in general..
lorien constructed the ship, which he used to bring sheriden back to b5, from his mind..
similary the triad can construct fleets of ships through telepathy..

No, it comes down to the fact that they were never shown to drain anywhere _near_ enough energy from their surroundings to even cause a dent in the DS output. If they did, then the ISA ships would have frozen in nanoseconds.

true... BUT the shadows and vorlons did have a vested interest in discussing matters with sheriden and delenn.. and did they really even want to kill them them, and the younger race fleet, in the end.. i mean out of the thousands of missles that were detected to have surrounded the fleet, only 2 were used... plus theres the presence of lorien.. a being whom both the vorlons and shadows respect.. do they want to lose any respect from him.

No, I actually understand that you can only reduce temperatures by removing energy. Since the Death Star can supply energy _far_ faster than the first ones can remove it the temperature should only change to a small degree.

assuming that first ones can drain as much energy as theyre capable of producing.. well lets just say that i dont agree with the assertion that first ones are incapable of shattering planets..

Which they do _all_ the time of course.

of course they use (b5) hyperspace all the time.. whats ur point?..

)

Assuming of course that a jump point will be able to open within the shields and near the interference caused by a race that already has a very good understanding of hyperspace

b5 hyperspace != sw hyperspace..
b5 hyperspace is actually another dimension that has no 1-1 correlation with real (b5) space.. and actually allows for faster travel between places in b5 real space...

as for opening within shields.. does sw shielding have any component or affect objects within b5 hyperspace... of the course the answer is no.. hence b5 hyperspace capable ships can bypass sw shields.

The hole place" was an area several kilometres across at the most. The Death Star is 160km in diameter

and the diameter of the generator core is?

The shadows did absolutely _nothing_ once they were fired upon. They didn't defend themselves, and the intent of the scene was to show them being killed.

there was no characteristic release of energy shown from the shadow that would indicate its death.. PLUS why would the body remain phased or invsible if the shadow was dead..

I'm waiting for someone to provide the quote that actually states this to be the case.

jesus h christ..

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-25 12:47am

adam warlock wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to actually provide the JMS quote instead of assuming that the entire world knows about it.
are you doing this on purpose??

Of course I am. Having never actually seen any evidence for this claim, I am calling on someone to actually provide it.

the fact that events occuring in stories within novels, being alongside those events that occured in stories shown in episodes speaks for itself..

I'm still waiting for the quote from JMS that states this to be a fact.

as for b5wars info

"When other licensees needed imformation an ship configurations or weapons capabilities, we referred them to the Agents of Gaming books (such as the one you are holding in your hands). When we were in production and engaged in writing the episodes or the mapping out of sets, if I was not available to answer a specific question on a technichal area covered by AoG... the people involved were directed to AoG books. Whenever Aog's miniatures showed up on set, there was always a feeding frenzy of the sort usually associated with an unlucky cow falling into a river filled with piranha.
What I'm saying, in this roundabout way, is that if you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy, canonical authority, and the best of the best when it comes to BABYLON 5 licensing and gaming... you've come to the right place.
Enjoy. "

thats from jms.

Looks like it applies only to AoG books then.

If they truly had such amazing psychic and physical abilities then they shouldn't need the encounter suits at all. Just project the image they want into other's minds.

u miss one of the more important points of the encounter suits... that the vorlons do not want to be recognise... once they come out of that encounter suit, they trigger race programming that makes them recognisable to anyone from the race that they have influenced, as indicated in season 2 epp "fall of the night". unless they turn downright nasty and decide to no longer play as everyones religious symbol (ulkesh).[/quote]

Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they cannot disguise their image.

also the vorlons also go around hidden in other beings, like ulkesh sometimes hides within lyta,..or put sentient pieces of themselves in other beings, like kosh did to sheriden.

Once again, if they are nearly invulnerable, and also such incredibly powerful telepaths that they can make people think and do what they want, why do they need any of these trappings? Just phase around the station and make people see what you want them to see.

And then make each Jedi worth about a dozen first ones based on theur telekinetic ability alone.

??.. erm u think a telekenisis is over telepathy.. what good would telekenisis be if the person using it is blocked from using it by a telepathic, or controled, or mindfriend.. nevertheless the vorlons are capable of telekenitic equivalent of a force push and choke (as kosh demonstrated on sheriden).. though the exact extent of their telekinetic abilities is largely unknown..[/quote]

Given the relative lack of power a Vorlon shows over the minds of others compared to Vader or the Emperor, why should they really be worried about the telepathy of the first ones?

Heck, Vader doesn't even need LOS to use his telekinesis.

as for the first ones telekinetic abilities in general..
lorien constructed the ship, which he used to bring sheriden back to b5, from his mind..
similary the triad can construct fleets of ships through telepathy..

So superbeings are all you have left then?

No, it comes down to the fact that they were never shown to drain anywhere _near_ enough energy from their surroundings to even cause a dent in the DS output. If they did, then the ISA ships would have frozen in nanoseconds.

true... BUT the shadows and vorlons did have a vested interest in discussing matters with sheriden and delenn.. and did they really even want to kill them them, and the younger race fleet, in the end.. i mean out of the thousands of missles that were detected to have surrounded the fleet, only 2 were used... plus theres the presence of lorien.. a being whom both the vorlons and shadows respect.. do they want to lose any respect from him.[/quote]

You cannot give the death cloud abilities it has not been shown to possess through valid sources.

No, I actually understand that you can only reduce temperatures by removing energy. Since the Death Star can supply energy _far_ faster than the first ones can remove it the temperature should only change to a small degree.

assuming that first ones can drain as much energy as theyre capable of producing.. well lets just say that i dont agree with the assertion that first ones are incapable of shattering planets..[/quote]

Then you are blind, deaf, and dumb, because they never shattered a planet in the series.

Assuming of course that a jump point will be able to open within the shields and near the interference caused by a race that already has a very good understanding of hyperspace

b5 hyperspace != sw hyperspace..
b5 hyperspace is actually another dimension that has no 1-1 correlation with real (b5) space.. and actually allows for faster travel between places in b5 real space...

as for opening within shields.. does sw shielding have any component or affect objects within b5 hyperspace... of the course the answer is no.. hence b5 hyperspace capable ships can bypass sw shields.[/quote]

An assumption with no evidence to back it up.

The hole place" was an area several kilometres across at the most. The Death Star is 160km in diameter

and the diameter of the generator core is?[/quote]

Quite irrelevant considering that the Death Star will be moving faster than a ny ship in B5 has ever travelled in realspace.

The shadows did absolutely _nothing_ once they were fired upon. They didn't defend themselves, and the intent of the scene was to show them being killed.

there was no characteristic release of energy shown from the shadow that would indicate its death.. PLUS why would the body remain phased or invsible if the shadow was dead.. [/quote]
Where did you get the idea that a shadow should have a "characteristic release of energy"? The one killed on B5 had no such release, and it's body also remained invisible.

I'm waiting for someone to provide the quote that actually states this to be the case.

jesus h christ..[/quote]

If you aren't willing to provide evidence to back up your claims, then don't make them. From the quote it looks like only the B5wars book and any other materials published by AoG are part of the universe.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-25 02:33am

Hate to butt in, but...
there are a few issues I would like to address concerning to last couple of posts.

1st: The issue of force users should be a nonissue. Vader is the only one on the DS. Also, Vader to my knowledge cannot compete against the vorlons or shadows.

Vader:
able to use basic telekinisis i.e. throw big things and choke people, can't fly or teleport himself

has not shown he can use force lightning
mind control capabilities, nominal (to my knowledge it was the emperor who was mind controling the galaxy)

Vorlon/Shadow:
"Beings of pure energy"
Can kill humans instantly
Shadows can become invisible
Telepathic powers more than that of Vader
anything else im leaving out?

Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they cannot disguise their image.

Dice, there are many reasons for not flaunting there stuff, their purpose was too fit in and guide the younger races, also there were other telepaths on the station that would of been able to see through their mental projection.

2nd,
Hyperspace portals are artificial wormholes. They tear through the fabric of space and connect real space and hyperspace. If the death star can withstand that kind force so be it. They however probably can't seeing as how the Sun Crusher was teared appart in the Maw.

3rd,
"PPG rifles fire in the high kilowatt to low megawatt range"
Are blasters really stronger than that?

Quite irrelevant considering that the Death Star will be moving faster than a ny ship in B5 has ever travelled in realspace.

Not when they have to stop, in order to use the superlaser and decimate fleets.

3rd,
"PPG rifles fire in the high kilowatt to low megawatt range"
Are blasters really stronger than that?

Well that's it about that.

Wait,

one more thing, I wanted brought up was Earth? (our home

)

How would the EA defend it.

According to B5tech a single particle beam on one defence sat can pump out 2.7 million Terawatts every 30 sec of continuous firing. Note there is more than one sat. Are the DS's shields strong enough?

If anyone has more info on this please inform.

Alright, Go

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-25 02:55am

Graeme Dice wrote: the fact that events occuring in stories within novels, being alongside those events that occured in stories shown in episodes speaks for itself..

I'm still looking for a quote. But here's the short version:

If JMS gives the thumbs up for b5 book, he must approve of it. He has the power to cancel his own show if he doens't like the way it's going. Nothing gets a B5 label attached to it without JMS's explicit permission.

Graeme Dice wrote:Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they cannot disguise their image.

*sigh* Did it ever occur to you that maybe they don't want to be blasting TP signals in all directions with their ancient enemy buzzing around. The Shadows would have seen through his ruse, and surmised that the vorlons were flat out prepping the younger races against them. The last time vorlons openly walked among the younger races was in 1360 during the 2nd to last shadow war. By walking without physical barriers between them and the younger races (encounter suits) the shadows would have deduced the younger races intentions and struck sooner

But since we have no documented evidence of a vorlon/shadow flat out disguising their appearance, I'll yield on the issue. Now let's look at what we know vorlon/shadow telepathy can accomplish (aog shadows and vorlons are telepathically equal)

TK abilities to match vader. (ref. Kosh/Ulkesh chocking/ slamming Sheridan/Lyta against a bulkhead with his mind)

Mind Raping abilities (Ulkesh mind fucked Lyta when she tried to scan him)

Mind Control (Shadows and vorlons mind controlling Lyta at corianna 6. )

Lyta mind controlling people within a 10 meter radius notice the lack of line of sight....

Visions (Kosh talking to Sheridan in his dreams. Invading G'Kars mind and helping him have an epiphany. Giving Sheridan a vision, when he was concious, at a great distance (we know it was great due to the fact Sheridan had jumped in and travelled through hyperspace for a long time).

Able to "break off" a piece of themselves and stow away on a coporeal being.

Considering the ranges at which the first ones were able to mind control Lyta, It is conceivable that in a massive assault (in which the first one ships would be destroyed), the firstones could mind control the commanding officer on the Death Star, and actually start to cause serious damage to the death star from the inside.

Graeme Dice wrote:Given the relative lack of power a Vorlon shows over the minds of others compared to Vader or the Emperor, why should they really be worried about the telepathy of the first ones?

See my above post. Simply because it can't do everything force powers can doesn't make it automatically inferior anymore than hyerpspace is inferior because it isn't warp

Graeme Dice wrote:Heck, Vader doesn't even need LOS to use his telekinesis.

And neither does Lyta, who is actually weak in comparison to the first ones(see above)

An assumption with no evidence to back it up.

This is incorrect. We have continually seen throughout the series that real space objects cast no "hyerpspace shadow" in hyperspace. Were there such a "shadow" we would have heard it talked about during the multitude of times a ship gets close to a planet (or the point in hyperspace equivilant). Yet there is no such mention at all.

allow me to present this analogy.

You are in a swimming pool and a volley ball net is strung up from the sides. Above the pool is real space. The water is hyperspace. You can't go through the net (DS shield), so you go under water (phase to hyperspace) move a distance under water (travelling through hyperpsace) and exit the water on the other end of the pool (getting back into real space) and you've completely bypassed the net.

And I've yet to hear a valid counter against the Eye of Z'ha'dum.

Jack Lain · Post by **Jack Lain** » 2002-07-25 03:34am

Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

The problem is the title of the thread. I only skimmed the responses here after the second page, so I might have missed it but the first Death Star, according to Saxton suggests a full day to refuel the superlaser. You are free to nitpick at this if you read this attached URL, as he is talking about power levels. But this is the DS 1, not DS 2 as the Thread Starter stated.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html

I will readily agree that the non-first one races do not stand a chance in hell against DS 1.
But Vorlons and Shadows would win.
Either of their fleets against DS 1 - as the thread topic states - would destroy the DS 1.

Now, were we discussing the might of the Galactic Empire versus the combined might of all B5, I would side with my warsie brethren - though they may now consider me a traitor, suitable for re-education - but we are not. The thread topic limits us in our ability to respond correctly to this premeditated attack upon our sovereign right to destroy what ever the hell we want! Bow down B5 people and post a real war thread!

-Jack "eager to eat" Lain.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-07-25 04:18am

Of course I am. Having never actually seen any evidence for this claim, I am calling on someone to actually provide it.

how about u look it up yourself.

Looks like it applies only to AoG books then.

nope.. everyting b5 related..

Thank you for admitting that their psychic abilities are so poor that they cannot disguise their image.

Once again, if they are nearly invulnerable, and also such incredibly powerful telepaths that they can make people think and do what they want, why do they need any of these trappings? Just phase around the station and make people see what you want them to see.

how about keeping a low profile..

as for doing all the funky stuff.. they were trying to guide the younger races, NOT force them to do their bidding under mind control.. of course that changed when the vorlons started killing off the races influenced by the otherside.. but by this time ulkesh had two obstacles on b5, the remaining piece of kosh inside sheriden, and lorien.

Given the relative lack of power a Vorlon shows over the minds of others compared to Vader or the Emperor, why should they really be worried about the telepathy of the first ones?

i doubt vader, or even the emperor, is near lyta level of direct control telepathy.. mr vacit.. one of the early heads of psicorp, a second generation teep, was more powerful than lyta, due to a piece of vorlon inside him.. and he posed as a norm INSIDE the psicorps organisation for decades.. given that in the early years, a norm was required by rule to act as head of that organisation.

So superbeings are all you have left then?

deathstar vs b5?..
includes all the firstones right?..
these superbeings are also firstones..
u referred to them as firstones right?.

true... BUT the shadows and vorlons did have a vested interest in discussing matters with sheriden and delenn.. and did they really even want to kill them them, and the younger race fleet, in the end.. i mean out of the thousands of missles that were detected to have surrounded the fleet, only 2 were used... plus theres the presence of lorien.. a being whom both the vorlons and shadows respect.. do they want to lose any respect from him

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You cannot give the death cloud abilities it has not been shown to possess through valid sources.

hmm????..
???..

Then you are blind, deaf, and dumb, because they never shattered a planet in the series.

explain what happened to arkada7 then.
probe was sent to area it resided in, and trace of it was found..
susan ivanova said it was not in that area anymore.. lyta (who knew the vorlons more than anyone else on b5) followed up by saying it was destroyed.

as shattering planets in general.. season four episode epiphanies.. z'hadum was blown apart, albeit not by either the vorlon planet killer, or shadow planet killer, but it does show that planet shattering capabilities do exist in b5.

b5 hyperspace != sw hyperspace..
b5 hyperspace is actually another dimension that has no 1-1 correlation with real (b5) space.. and actually allows for faster travel between places in b5 real space...

as for opening within shields.. does sw shielding have any component or affect objects within b5 hyperspace... of the course the answer is no.. hence b5 hyperspace capable ships can bypass sw shields.

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An assumption with no evidence to back it up.

??...i dont see sw ships opening up jump points and going into other dimensions as means of travel..
neither do i see b5 ships engaging hyperdrive.
for crossover discussions we do generally have to assume that both work in each others universe right?..

now again does sw shielding have components, or manisfests effects, in other dimensions, away from the dimension it resides in? .. is it capable of doing so?... the answer is both no.

Quite irrelevant considering that the Death Star will be moving faster than a ny ship in B5 has ever travelled in realspace.

assuming it doesnt slowdown/stop to take shots at planets.

Where did you get the idea that a shadow should have a "characteristic release of energy"? The one killed on B5 had no such release, and it's body also remained invisible.

why would the body continue to remain invisible if the shadow is dead?..

energy release upon a shadows death was described in the technomage trilogy...

If you aren't willing to provide evidence to back up your claims, then don't make them. From the quote it looks like only the B5wars book and any other materials published by AoG are part of the universe.

again if you arent convinced by the fact that the "official" b5 chronology includes events that occured in novels, short stories, and graphic novels, then u will remain unconvinced..

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-25 04:33am

Originally posted by adam worlock
quote:
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Given the relative lack of power a Vorlon shows over the minds of others compared to Vader or the Emperor, why should they really be worried about the telepathy of the first ones?

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i doubt vader, or even the emperor, is near lyta level of direct control telepathy.. mr vacit.. one of the early heads of psicorp, a second generation teep, was more powerful than lyta, due to a piece of vorlon inside him.. and he posed as a norm INSIDE the psicorps organisation for decades.. given that in the early years, a norm was required by rule to act as head of that organisation.

First, where are you getting this from? If it is a B5 novel could you give us the title, I would love to read it!!!!

However, control is SW over another being has been demonstrated clearly in the Thrawn trilogy where C'boath takes over the Chimaera's bridge crew, and in the last command it was implied that he did the same to the entire Chimaera. He also totally mind-rapped the general, up to the point that he could not survive without being close to C'boath, so I think that adds a little weight to what Sith/Jedi are capable of...

For me, I believe if the FO are able to 'hack' into Palpy's control of his troops, then they can mind rape away, if they can't... FO go boom!