Vader's Injuries and Cloning

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-05-04 11:26am

I think something we might be missing here is that SW cloning is, obviously, different from ours. It allwos you to basically grwo something out of thin air with only a little genetic material, in a tube, it's comic book cloning not real world cloning.

The fact may be, and i admit i having read all the novels so i may be wrong, that cloned tissue doesnt go well with naturally grown stuff. Like, perhaps it'll decay or be rejected even if it is cloned from your body, because of the technique used in the process.

Again, i may have missed something in one of the novels, but it's a thought.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-05-04 11:44am

Vympel wrote:
Stravo wrote: But if cybernetic parts interfere with a Jedi's connection to the force wouldn't a cloned organic arm prove far superior for Anakin's purposes?
I don't think they interfere. The problem is part of your life just got hacked off. Replacing that with a surrogate doesn't give back what you lost. At least, that's my theory. It's the loss of the limb that's the issue, more than what you replace it with.

Agreed, why would a 'souless' clone arm be any more Force friendly than a 'souless' droid arm.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 11:59am

A clone arm is alive and for all intents and purposes part of that person once attached. It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-05-04 12:33pm

Stravo wrote:A clone arm is alive and for all intents and purposes part of that person once attached. It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.

You'd think the midiclorians would also spread to that arm, given they apparently have something to do with Force potential...

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 12:36pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Stravo wrote:A clone arm is alive and for all intents and purposes part of that person once attached. It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.
You'd think the midiclorians would also spread to that arm, given they apparently have something to do with Force potential...

The midichlorians should already BE in the arm if its cloned from Anakin's cells.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-05-04 12:39pm

Stravo wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Stravo wrote:A clone arm is alive and for all intents and purposes part of that person once attached. It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.
You'd think the midiclorians would also spread to that arm, given they apparently have something to do with Force potential...
The midichlorians should already BE in the arm if its cloned from Anakin's cells.

Excellent point. So what's this fuss about cloned limbs being useless for Force users? Is their cloning technology really that bad?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-05-04 12:45pm

Again, there may be an issue of rejection. It's possible they never developed any way to keep the cloned limbs on for long. Clonetroopers may be able to survive the rejection on a higher basis.

We dont know what their surgical technology is either. Really i think maybe we just might be dealing with a situation where they might not possess the medical technology to make it work.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 12:58pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Again, there may be an issue of rejection. It's possible they never developed any way to keep the cloned limbs on for long. Clonetroopers may be able to survive the rejection on a higher basis.

We dont know what their surgical technology is either. Really i think maybe we just might be dealing with a situation where they might not possess the medical technology to make it work.

There's no evidence for that assertion. If you can have clone troopers having limbs and organs replaced with cloned tissue then why can't the second most powerful man also get the same treatment? How does rejection play in to tissue that is your own?

The databank clearly states that clone armies make it easier to replace limbs and organs becaise of the interchangelability. That would imply that limbs and organs have been replaced before with organic counterparts with some diffciulty but not impossible.

Throw in the fact that cybernetic parts impede force usage and you have a recipe for Anakin demanding an organic replacement for his arm and later on for most of his body. You're fighting a war to save the Republic, you'd think the Jedi and the Republic for that matter would want the Jedi Knights to be as whole as possible since its obvious thats what makes them strong in the Force.

As to surgical technology let's be real - I don't see how you can look at the evidence of cyborg parts that are easily grafted against flesh and plugged into the nervous system and not think that the same can be done with clone tissue - in fact it should be easier.

The Rebel Alliance with far less resources and technology than the Empire easily replaced Luke's hand in a matter of hours after he was rescued from Bespin. Anakin gets a cyborg arm in a short amount of time as well. They have the technique to easily replace lost limbs but obviously there's something up with why these key figures never received cloned limbs when ground pounders in the Clone Wars were getting limbs and organs replaced.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-05-04 01:02pm

Medstar dualogy suggests that harder (if not impossible) clone lost limb (even for a clone trooper) then use a cybernetic limb. (we there's evidence that cloned Jedi tend to be unstable even if they use the orginal "soul")

Alliance SpecForceTrooper · Post by **Alliance SpecForceTrooper** » 2005-05-04 01:26pm

Well, then you have to go back to Anakin and his hacked off limb. Throw his ass in a vat of bacta with the arm stitched on and VOILA!, no cybernetic replacement. So he'll have to get used to one arm being a few inches shorter than the other, no big deal.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-04 01:40pm

Stravo wrote:A clone arm is alive and for all intents and purposes part of that person once attached.

Genetically, yes. Astralogically, no. That's why it works fairly well for clones, whose astralogical strength (Force) is close to zero. Astralogical problems were probably part of the consideration for using Jango Fett rather than a Jedi in the first place.

It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.

It is not non-existent. But It is not necessarily as good as the original strength, and may not even transfer at all. It may sound silly in a 3D scientific sense, but not in an astralogical sense, and since the Force is a observable entity in Star Wars (and partially quantified and scientifized), it'd be unscientific to totally ignore the possibility.

The midichlorians should already BE in the arm if its cloned from Anakin's cells.

Why must it? It is not clear that those midis must be genetic. If they are not genetic, Why must a genetic duplication duplicate said chlorians.

Besides, if the Force strength was transferred, you may very well get an incompatibility problem. Cloning normal people is not a problem - astralogy plays insignificant influence in normal people and so would not get in your way - genetic lineup is enough. But a soul is generated by a person, and the person is a combination of his genetics and all his experiences. Thinking that a cloned body part would line up astralogically is just silly. Two twins, despite their high similarities in genetics, don't line up in personality. Nor would you expect a clone of yourself with a different experience to line up in personality. So why would you expect the souls to line up, if a cloned arm part could have a coherent soul to speak of at all.

And a Force-user by definition has a high enough astralogical strength to affect reality to a detectable degree. So the incompatibility shows up.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 02:11pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
It makes no sense to me that an energy field created by living things would be non existent in an organic arm that is attached and now part of a living organism. What? Does the Force just stop generating around the clone arm? That just sounds silly.
It is not non-existent. But It is not necessarily as good as the original strength, and may not even transfer at all. It may sound silly in a 3D scientific sense, but not in an astralogical sense, and since the Force is a observable entity in Star Wars (and partially quantified and scientifized), it'd be unscientific to totally ignore the possibility.

How can it be non existent around life? Cloned tissue is alive. Life generates it, makes it grow, binds us penetrates us. Jedi 101 from Yoda. There was no caveat of "But cloned tissue the force does not recognize."

The force is an observable effect yes and from what we have observed cybernetics impedes force usage. There is no mention (that I am aware of) in ROTS that cloned tissue is bad.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
The midichlorians should already BE in the arm if its cloned from Anakin's cells.
Why must it? It is not clear that those midis must be genetic. If they are not genetic, Why must a genetic duplication duplicate said chlorians.

Even putting aside the argument whether midi are genetic (how they can be passed on from father to son, etc) or aren't the minute that arm is attached the blood from the body flows in carrying the midiochlorians so voila, instant part of the force generating organ.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Besides, if the Force strength was transferred, you may very well get an incompatibility problem. Cloning normal people is not a problem - astralogy plays insignificant influence in normal people and so would not get in your way - genetic lineup is enough. But a soul is generated by a person, and the person is a combination of his genetics and all his experiences. Thinking that a cloned body part would line up astralogically is just silly. Two twins, despite their high similarities in genetics, don't line up in personality. Nor would you expect a clone of yourself with a different experience to line up in personality. So why would you expect the souls to line up, if a cloned arm part could have a coherent soul to speak of at all.
And a Force-user by definition has a high enough astralogical strength to affect reality to a detectable degree. So the incompatibility shows up.

Are you saying that a limb has a soul? That if a Jedi lost a thumb he would have to get a cybernetic replacement because the soul of his cloned thumb would be getting in the way?

BTW there is no reference to this in the movies at all. In fact this whole clone tissue is bad argument seems to be sloely coming from the Thrawn trilogy AFAIK and they were discussing fully cloned individuals not limbs and in fact managed to clone a Jedi from Luke's hand, he seemed to be force sensitive so his midicholrians were replicated rather well, no?

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-05-04 02:13pm

Two rather "duh" observations:

1) There's about an inch of his arm missing IIRC (the width of the blade)

2) the ends were both charred.

The charring and the missing section could severly inhibbit re-attachment of the original limb, or even a loned limb. They'd have to cut off more of the arm to replace it with a cloned arm.

Just my observations....

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 02:15pm

Majin Gojira wrote:Two rather "duh" observations:

1) There's about an inch of his arm missing IIRC (the width of the blade)

2) the ends were both charred.

The charring and the missing section could severly inhibbit re-attachment of the original limb, or even a loned limb. They'd have to cut off more of the arm to replace it with a cloned arm.

Just my observations....

Yet those wounds don't inhibit attachment of cybernetic limbs to the limb, the flesh and the nervous system does it?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-04 02:30pm

Stravo wrote:How can it be non existent around life? Cloned tissue is alive. Life generates it, makes it grow, binds us penetrates us. Jedi 101 from Yoda. There was no caveat of "But cloned tissue the force does not recognize."

Uh, should I have emphasized another part of the sentence? I said that they were "not" non-existant. They are undeniably life. Re-read it.

Even putting aside the argument whether midi are genetic (how they can be passed on from father to son, etc)

Like AIDS...

or aren't the minute that arm is attached the blood from the body flows in carrying the midiochlorians so voila, instant part of the force generating organ.

That just spreads your midis thin. You get an arm, but you don't have to get your power back.

Are you saying that a limb has a soul? That if a Jedi lost a thumb he would have to get a cybernetic replacement because the soul of his cloned thumb would be getting in the way?

In a sense - the limb has midichlorians, the more so if you assume the Force strength transferred right. Thus it has some astral strength, precisely because of Yoda's dictum that all life creates the Force in some way, and the arm is life. The "soul" it produces may not be sentient or what we would typically call a soul, but it would certainly have its own astralogical energy, and thus potential for its interference.

It might very well be the case that even a thumb would cause problems.

BTW there is no reference to this in the movies at all.

The films have a hard time being the source for all but a few things. In fact, you probably got that clone tissue advantage from the EU too.

In fact this whole clone tissue is bad argument seems to be sloely coming from the Thrawn trilogy AFAIK and they were discussing fully cloned individuals not limbs and in fact managed to clone a Jedi from Luke's hand, he seemed to be force sensitive so his midicholrians were replicated rather well, no?

You sure? C'baoth has him very much in control. It might be that the Force you are seeing came from C'baoth. In any case, I gave you a scenario for both a successful and un-successful transfers. Either way, you have problems.

Clones are bad is also briefly expoused in DE and "Wankatine" as some of the series detractors like to call it (personally, the thing that makes me forgive DE for almost everything is the sheer maximalism of the fleet count). See the stuff mentioning vulnerability to the Dark Side of the Force.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2005-05-04 02:39pm

Perhaps what they mean about abundant replacement parts for the clone army is that they can grab them from other casualties in the same clone batch. That way the replacement parts and the body would be roughly the same relative age.

They also might clone batches of organs at the same time they are growing a batch of clones. It would make sense to have spare replacement parts for something that is going to take you ten years to produce since that 10 years is a pretty hefty investment and you wouldn't want to have to shit can some of them at year 9 because of a small defect or glitch in one of the original parts.

Since Anakin and Luke weren't clones to begin with there weren't clone parts for them stashed in some warehouse. They also didn't have anybody around they would swipe parts from either.

I think the only scientific problem I can see for why Anakin or Luke didn't get cloned replacement parts is because SW science never found a way to accelerate the growth process and then reset it to a more normal aging process when it was to be attached. It might be distracting that your "new" arm continues to age at twice (or more) the rate as the rest of you.

In the philosophy side of things Dooku seemed appalled by Anakin's metal arm so maybe there is an even more wide spread aversion to replacing missing parts with biological parts. So far we've never seen it in SW so maybe it is just doesn't even enter most people's minds to do it.

This attitude would make EU Palpatine's willingness to make and use entirely new cloned bodies of himself even more "evil" to the average member of the Empire/GR.

That they can replace parts on clones with no qualms isn't far removed from not having a problem with growing people for the sole purpose of using them as disposable troops.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-04 02:41pm

Tsyroc wrote:I think the only scientific problem I can see for why Anakin or Luke didn't get cloned replacement parts is because SW science never found a way to accelerate the growth process and then reset it to a more normal aging process when it was to be attached. It might be distracting that your "new" arm continues to age at twice (or more) the rate as the rest of you.

A real possibility there... but that doesn't fully explain why Vader never got around to getting his parts replaced. ROTS is what? 2 decades or so before ROTJ. During all this time, he could have had parts grown to a young adulthood at the normal speed, then put them onto himself.

Also, TLC suggested they have found a solution to that problem - IIRC Thrawn mentions how he plans to clone C'baoth, rush him to about 10 years old, and then let him continue at the normal rate.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-05-04 02:44pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Why must it? It is not clear that those midis must be genetic. If they are not genetic, Why must a genetic duplication duplicate said chlorians.

From the The Thrawn Trilogy, we see examples that Jedi Clones can demostrate fairly remarkable force powers (C'baoth being the prime example). We also see in the Last Command that a a full clone can be grown from a small sample of genetic material. If we agree that chlorian count/presence is a requirement for force knowledge/use, it seems that the duplication preserves chlorians since we see clones of force users exhibiting force powers.

What bothers me is the line from TPM in which it is implied that a high chlorian count possibly indicates more force potential. If it is merely a genetic thing, why not isolate the material and inject/transfuse it into force individuals to boost their potential? Similiary, why not clone/grow a limb, attach it, and inject more chlorians to balance any loss? There must be something that we are missing considering the Vader example and the fact we have not seen "force steroid" junkies.

Edit: The fact that they can scan a sample from a force prospect and get an accurate chlorian count (implying they have isolated the material in some fashion) makes me believe there is another factor in force usage/potential. Why recruit and search for Jedi-to-be when you can turn anyone into a force user?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2005-05-04 03:06pm

Maybe by Luke's era there's just an extreme aversion to anything cloned, or maybe in the after math of the clone wars people's distaste for anything cloned led to the techniques backsliding, or being lost except for in a few places.

With Anakin/Vader maybe he couldn't survive getting cloned parts. It's a bit of a stretch but what if the only reason he is alive even in his Vader form is because his anger at having so many mechanical parts helps keep him alive. Start giving him the hope of being whole again and perhaps he relaxes the hate enough that he wouldn't survive long enough for any mechanical parts to be replaced with biological. He hates what he is but that hate is also what helps keep him alive. (It kind of goes with that semi-lame Maul v. Vader story)

On the same note. Perhaps the only reason Vader died when he killed Palpatine is because the slightly more love dovey version of Vader couldn't muster the anger/power to protect himself from Palpatine's sith lightning, or at least couldn't summon the anger to heal himself enough afterwards so he'd last long enough for his suit to be repaired. Personally, I don't think he would have wanted to survive after that point but maybe evil Vader usurping the Emperor's thrown would have survived where Vader/Anakin saving Luke would not?

Anyone else dislike that Infinites story which ends with Anakin in White Vader Garb on the side of the Rebellion at the end? There's just something not right about that.

It's possible that Vader survived to get all the mechanical parts because he was consumed with hate for Obi-Wan, Padme, whoever. After that he had his own form, what happened with his wife and everything else to keep him properly cheesed. Maybe the real reason that Vader doesn't reach his "full potential" isn't because he's lost power but because he has to waste so much of what he has in just staying alive? Even knowing that would feed the anger as well.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-05-04 04:01pm

Tsyroc wrote: Maybe the real reason that Vader doesn't reach his "full potential" isn't because he's lost power but because he has to waste so much of what he has in just staying alive? Even knowing that would feed the anger as well.

The healing chamber scenes in the novelization of Shadows of the Empire support this. And with the Force power drawn away into keeping him alive, it's possible that he doesn't have enough to spare for Force lightning (or it could fry the circuits of his arm). Regardless he's no doubt he's still a powerful Jedi, just not the extent he was in the prequels. And with Paly still wanting the Sith legacy to continue, he needs someone in their prime and in good shape -- and who better than the son of the Chosen One?

In terms of Anakin getting a replacement arm, it could be that he wanted mechanichal over biological, given his techie background. It's also more likely to personally remind him of what Dooku did to him and how he owes the Count to return the favor...

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-05-04 06:10pm

Stravo wrote:Throw in the fact that cybernetic parts impede force usage and you have a recipe for Anakin demanding an organic replacement for his arm and later on for most of his body. You're fighting a war to save the Republic, you'd think the Jedi and the Republic for that matter would want the Jedi Knights to be as whole as possible since its obvious thats what makes them strong in the Force.

Yes, it seems that all the facts say that but it doesn't happen, so we look at what makes Anakin different from troopers, namely the force, therefore this is the most logical explanation, Anakin being a jedi or sith is what makes it impossible for some reason.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-04 09:20pm

Are we seriously considering the Shadowrun RPG 'essense' system? Come ON: Jedi just control the Force, they con't contain it. For all we know it's all in your mind. Unless we're saying that everyone has Force 'bandwidth' and you can lose it

And there's a difference between losing an arm (which does nothing to reduce Anakins power) and his ROTS injuries, which apparently prevent him from doing certain things. Even THOSE injuries don't reduce him to Obi-Wans level, however, since he's the stronger in ANH.

sock · Post by **sock** » 2005-05-04 09:26pm

Vympel wrote:We've seen Vader channel the force through his bionic arms in ANH and TESB- strangling Admiral Motti, yanking the gun out of Han's hand, flipping the carbonite chamber switch, etc.

I know this isn't completely along the lines of where this discussion is going, but I felt compelled to say it.

Is it not possible that the physical actions of the arm/hand during these moments is just for show? As in it is simply a gesture performed by Vader to accompany his use of the force?

I can hide a magnet inside my glove and hold my hand over a pin (ain't I special?). Then move it slowly downwards. As the pin gets attracted to the magnet I can move my other hand just like Vader flipping the switch. To small children and perhaps the elderly it looks like I am moving the pin with my ungloved hand. And if luck is on my side they'll think I am a jedi. If not, they'll probably burn me at the stake.

Not sure if thats the right analogy to use, but at least it's mine, just like my teeth.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-04 11:10pm

I didn't feel like wading through all of the posts, but cybernetics don't mess with the force. It's just that alot of Jedi don't like them, just as alot don't care for droids. Some superstitious taboo-like thing.

As for the cloning, the only wonder is why Anakin didn't get a cloned arm. In that era cloning was obviously not taboo or illegal, although it could be that the jedi had a problem with it. Or it could have just been personal preference; I know I'd greatly prefer a bionic to a cloned limb. Luke's hand is bionic because by then cloning was illegal and heavily frowned upon by everyone in the galaxy.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-04 11:17pm

Stark wrote:Are we seriously considering the Shadowrun RPG 'essense' system? Come ON: Jedi just control the Force, they con't contain it. For all we know it's all in your mind. Unless we're saying that everyone has Force 'bandwidth' and you can lose it

And there's a difference between losing an arm (which does nothing to reduce Anakins power) and his ROTS injuries, which apparently prevent him from doing certain things. Even THOSE injuries don't reduce him to Obi-Wans level, however, since he's the stronger in ANH.

Wait, how do you know the arm loss did absolutely nothing to reduce his power. Maybe it was already reduced, but it was considered too significant, so no one mentioned it outright.