Why don't all missionaries just fucking die?

[Guardsman Bass]

Okay, I'm back, and I managed to find my primary source material. This is going to being a long post, but it is my rebuttal to Darth Servo on the First Vision and Eight Witnesses arguments we were having.

The Information I am presenting is from the book Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, a biography of Joseph Smith's life from childhood until the Kirtland, Ohio Church by Dan Vogel. Vogel is somewhat of an authority on Joseph Smith. he was the editor of Early Mormon Documents, a five-volume series that won Best Documentary Book awards from both the Mormon History Association and the John Whitmer Historical Association. He is the author of Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon and Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism. He is a contributor to The Prophet Puzzle: Interpretive Essays on Joseph Smith, and has presented research papers at the annual Mormon History Association meetings and Sunstone Theological Symposium.

Without further ado,

The First Vision

Joseph Smith Jr. (his full name; I will in the future simply call him "Smith" or "Joseph Smith") 's earliest written account of the First Vision dates to 1832. In his writings upon it, he dated the First Vision to "the 16th Year of my age," or 1821. According to this account, the Vision is preceded by Joseph's sudden awareness of his sins and the "sins of the world" following a strong study in the Bible. Troubled, Joseph went into the "wilderness" to pray. As he was praying, "A pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day came down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of God and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord." The Lord, or Jesus, declares, "Joseph my son thy sins are forgive thee. Go thy way, walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments. Behold, I am the Lord of glory I was crucified for the world that all those who believe on my name may have eternal life. "

There are several noticeable differences between the first account of 1832 from the official LDS Church account, which dates from 1838. The 1832 account, for example, makes no mention of a non-existent religious revival in Palmyra in 1820 preceding the vision, and dates the vision to 1820 (the actual revival in Palmyra occurred in 1824, and led to the conversion of Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and his three older siblings to Presbyterianism). Also noticeably absent from the 1832 account is the presence of the personage of God the Father in the vision, his seizure by the power of the Devil upon first attempting to pray, and most importantly, the lack of the prophetic call to not join any of the existing sects. The last is a particularly significant difference that seems to preclude the possibility of the missing material being simply an omission, because, in the 1838 history, Chapter 1:18, Smith explicitly states "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join."

In fact, the 1832 account of Joseph's experience closely resembes a strong religious conversion experience not unheard of among Methodists of the time period. Methodist founder John Wesley, for example, reported in 1739: " I know several persons in whom this great change [religious rebirth] was wrought, in a dream, or during a strong representation to the eye of their mind, of Christ either on the cross or in glory." Early American Methodist preachers Freeborn Garrettson and Eleazor Sherman reported similar visions, the former describing a vision in which "Christ was exhibited to my mind" and the latter a "mental view of the dear Savior."

The Eight Witnesses

Darth Servo, you appear to agree with me that the Three Witnesses (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris) saw the Golden Plates only in a vision.

As for the additional Eight Witnesses, despite the language of the official testimony they made above (which you quoted above), evidence suggests that their experience was visionary in nature. The first example is the 1838 account of Martin Harris I mentioned earlier, in which Harris declared that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes" and that "the eight witnesses never saw them [with their natural eyes] and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." The veracity of this statement is supported by the fact that although Harris rejected Joseph's leadership in 1838, he continued to believe in the Book of Mormon, and certainly had no intention in causing harm to its credibility. In fact, he expressed this regret in 1839, stating that he "never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, but should have let it passed as it was." Six of the Eight Witnesses were still alive at this time, and none of them contradicted him.

There is also the 1839 statement of John Whitmer (then dissenting) to Theodore Turley, the church's business agent in Far West, in response to Turley's questioning about Whitmer's testimony. Whitmer said that he had seen and handled the plates, but that they had been shown to him in by a supernatural power, similar to Martin Harris's account of how the plates were shown to him.

In addition to the above, there is also circumstantial evidence pointing to a visionary experience for the Eight. First, unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight did not have a special revelation commissioning their witness. In fact, the original revelation in 1829 (changed in 1835, and now Doctrine and Covenants 17) stated: "Three shall know of a surety that these things are true for I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are and to none else will I grant this power among this generation." Interestingly enough, this fits well with Harris's statement that he had "hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth over them, but never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." If the Eight Witnesses saw the plates through a lid on a box (possibly the tool chest of Joseph's late brother Alvin, which supposedly held the plates for a while according to Smith family tradition), Smith could have easily have filled the box with rocks to create the semblance of weight. In that manner, the witnesses could claim that they had "seen" (through a vision, or supernatural power) and "hefted" the plates without breaking the spirit of the above revelation, which preceded their testimony.

This appears to fit with an 1854 report compiled by Illinois Governor Thomas Ford, which repeated information gathered from Church dissenters [aka, people like the Re-organized Church]. According to Ford, Smith sat a box before the witnesses and told them it contained the plates. After the men looked into the box with no result, Smith upbraided them, "O ye of little faith! How long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for forgiveness of your sins, and for a holy and living faith which cometh from heaven." After praying "two hours with fanatical earnestness," they again looked into the box and this time saw the plates.

The Testimony of those who held the plates

I also need to speak concerning the testimonies of those who claimed to hold the plates, but not necessarily see them. Although Lucy Mack Smith described holding them, William Smith gave one of the most detailed accounts: he "had hefted the plates in an old frock in which Joseph brought them home. He thumbed them through the cloth and ascertained that they were thin sheets of some kind of metal, and said he believed they weighed about sixty pounds. This is close to a description by Martin Harris, who, upon holding the plates, estimated their weight at "forty to fifty pounds."

This opens the possibility of Smith creating a fascimile set of plates to quell doubt. Smith himself said that the plates were "six inches wide, eight inches long, with each plate not quite so thick as common tin. The volume was something near six inches in thickness." The mention of the plates being "not quite so thick as common tin" may have been intended to put on skepticism about whether he created a set of plates from a common material. It would have been relatively easy for him to do so. Scraps of tin were available on the Smith property, and nearby, along with the necessary tools. During the several hours Smith was separated from his wife, Emma, and on other occasions when he visited the hill where the plates were buried, he could have easily have set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill, or in the nearby forest. Using a pair of metal sheers, he could have cut sheets of tin in the appropriate dimensions, and used a nail or similar device to punch three holes in which to run a wire or bar through. William's and Harris's weight estimates actually appear to support this possibility. A block of solid tin with the dimensions 7X8X6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If you subtract 30 percent of the wieght due to the unevenness and space between the plates(plus the holes punched), the plates of tin would weight 52.27 pounds. By contrast, using the same calculations, plates of gold would weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; and mix of copper and gold, between 65 and 140 pounds, depending on the mixture used.

Joseph Smith's Journeys into Methodism

Since I mentioned it in a previous point, I might as well mention the two main instances when Joseph Smith participated in Methodism. The first was in 1824, when, according to Palmyra resident Orasamus Tucker, "Joseph Smith caught a spark of methodism in the camp meeting," and became a "very passable exhorter in evening meetings." Methodist exhorters were speakers drawn from the lay congregations and were licensed to deliver an "exhortation" at the end of the meeting, re-emphasizing the sermon's message and "exhorting" the congregation to follow its teaching. Smith may have, in fact, sought a legitimate conversion experience, since his previous primary occupation had been as a magical "seer" using a seeing stone to look for buried treasure, and he returned the seeing stone to Willard Chase, its original owner, for a year. This is significant, since when he reclaimed the stone in 1826, he refused to ever give it back.

The second time he temporarily joined a methodist congregation was with his wife, Emma, in 1828, after Martin Harris lost the first 119 translated pages of the Book of Mormon. The class met on Wednesday's, usually at the home of the Reverend Nathaniel Lewis, Emma's uncle. According to the pastor's son, Joseph, Smith "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister agreed to put his name on the class book." Joseph Lewis confronted Smith about this, and Smith chose to remove his name from the book of members. Joseph Lewis believed that Smith had been a class member for three days, but Michael Norse, Smith's brother-in-law, said "he was the 'leader' of the said 'class' and that to his certain knowledge Smith's name remained on the class book for about six months, when it was simply dropped, as Smith did not seek to become a full member." Although it has been claimed that Smith attended the services as a token gesture to his wife (whose family had ties to Methodism), or to her father, Isaac Hale), why, at this time, would Smith feel a need to please Isaac Hale? Why would attending a Methodist class please Emma (who professed belief in what Joseph was doing, and actually served as his temporary scribe in the early days of the translation)?

Conclusion

That was a beast, but I think it was worth it. I hope it explains a lot of things, and answers some questions.

Guardsman Bass


P.S. To Darth Servo:

You are correct about the initiation rituals. They do not, in of themself, constitute a form of brainwashing. However, I argue that the Mormon baptism ritual (which includes a "Confirmation of the Holy Ghost"), constitutes at least part of a brainwashing ritual.

People who are baptized into the LDS Church are told that the baptism has erased their previous sins. This is especially important for children who have turned eight years old (the age of baptism for Mormon children), and are told the above, and that from then on, they are responsible for their sins, and have to repent for them.

The second baptism-related ceremony, the Confirmation of the Holy Ghost, is the particularly important part. The Confirmation is supposed to grant the confirmee the presence and guidance of the Holy Ghost (the third member of the Godhead Trinity according to the LDS Church, and the source of the feeling of whether you are doing something right or wrong). The subjective feeling of the Holy Ghost, which most Mormons describe as a "burning in the bosom," becomes the emotional basis for the Testimony of Mormons to the truthhood of the Mormon Church.

[Guardsman Bass]

EDIT: In the "other testimonies" part, change "put on skepticism" to "put off skepticism."

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Just a quick reply to Superman:

My wife is an ex-mormon and she's glad she left. The cult of Mormonism teaches that all women are second-class citizens who cannot wield the powers of the spirit that mormon men can and who must defer to their husbands, yadda yadda yadda. She felt increasingly unhappy in the church and found that it was constantly attacking her sense of self worth. Since she has left the church she has gone out of her way to warn any women who are thinking of joining away from the church. So I feel that I should pass on the warning.

Any fulfillment she will receive will be at the cost of her sense of self-woth and happiness.

And God help her if she has sex before marriage and they find out, because Joseph Smith sure won't. (My aunt in law was excommunicated and shunned because she was date-raped.)

[Guardsman Bass]

Being a righteous Mormon woman sucks. In exchange for a lifetime of loyalty to the Church, your husband gets to be a god, while you get to be . . . a breeding machine, pumping out spirit children after spirit children. Moreover, you are only one of probably several hundred such breeding machines. But I guess if your husband is a God, he can have companionship with you all at once.

[Mayabird]

Being a righteous Mormon woman sucks. In exchange for a lifetime of loyalty to the Church, your husband gets to be a god, while you get to be . . . a breeding machine, pumping out spirit children after spirit children. Moreover, you are only one of probably several hundred such breeding machines. But I guess if your husband is a God, he can have companionship with you all at once.

Would you believe that my Mormon ex-boyfriend had tried to seduce me/get me to join his church by saying I could be a Holy Uterus for all eternity? It's true. He tried. Suffice to say it didn't work at all. I also tried to talk some sense into him and showed him that genetics stuff I posted earlier, but that didn't bother him at all.

[Darth Servo]

In his writings upon it, he dated the First Vision to "the 16th Year of my age," or 1821.

So what if a guy is recounting an event from a decade earlier and makes a mistake about whether he was 15 or 16? Whats the big deal?

The 1832 account, for example, makes no mention of a non-existent religious revival in Palmyra in 1820 preceding the vision, and dates the vision to 1820 (the actual revival in Palmyra occurred in 1824, and led to the conversion of Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and his three older siblings to Presbyterianism).

The official account doesn't say when or where the revival was. Only that it was before the first vision and "in the place where we lived". Thats a pretty big leap of faith to assume he was talking about it being IN Palmyra rather than in that general area, one of the surrounding town.

Also noticeably absent from the 1832 account is the presence of the personage of God the Father in the vision, his seizure by the power of the Devil upon first attempting to pray, and most importantly, the lack of the prophetic call to not join any of the existing sects. The last is a particularly significant difference that seems to preclude the possibility of the missing material being simply an omission, because, in the 1838 history, Chapter 1:18, Smith explicitly states "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join."

Like I said before--an omission is NOT a contradiction.

In fact, the 1832 account of Joseph's experience closely resembes a strong religious conversion experience not unheard of among Methodists of the time period. Methodist founder John Wesley, for example, reported in 1739: " I know several persons in whom this great change [religious rebirth] was wrought, in a dream, or during a strong representation to the eye of their mind, of Christ either on the cross or in glory." Early American Methodist preachers Freeborn Garrettson and Eleazor Sherman reported similar visions, the former describing a vision in which "Christ was exhibited to my mind" and the latter a "mental view of the dear Savior."

So what?

The first example is the 1838 account of Martin Harris I mentioned earlier, in which Harris declared that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes" and that "the eight witnesses never saw them [with their natural eyes] and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it."

How would Martin Harris know whether Smith showed the plates to the eight since by this statement, he wasn't even there whne he showed them in the first place.

The veracity of this statement is supported by the fact that although Harris rejected Joseph's leadership in 1838, he continued to believe in the Book of Mormon, and certainly had no intention in causing harm to its credibility.

And just HOW does this help your position? A leading man in the Church has turned away from Smith, and is in fact quite angry with Smith. Yet he doesn't want to damage the Book of Mormon's credibility. Why not?

In fact, he expressed this regret in 1839, stating that he "never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, but should have let it passed as it was." Six of the Eight Witnesses were still alive at this time, and none of them contradicted him.

None of them contradicted him that he had said their testimony was false. What is that supposed to prove? Only that he didn't believe them at one point.

There is also the 1839 statement of John Whitmer (then dissenting) to Theodore Turley, the church's business agent in Far West, in response to Turley's questioning about Whitmer's testimony. Whitmer said that he had seen and handled the plates, but that they had been shown to him in by a supernatural power, similar to Martin Harris's account of how the plates were shown to him.

Its not similar since you can't "handle" a vision seen with "the eye of faith".

In addition to the above, there is also circumstantial evidence pointing to a visionary experience for the Eight. First, unlike the Three Witnesses, the Eight did not have a special revelation commissioning their witness. In fact, the original revelation in 1829 (changed in 1835, and now Doctrine and Covenants 17) stated: "Three shall know of a surety that these things are true for I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are and to none else will I grant this power among this generation."

The Book of Mormon ITSELF says that more than the three will see the plates:

2 Ne. 27-28 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.

13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.

The quote you posted above says three shall be given power from God to see the plates. This would be the vision of the three we've talked about. The eight did NOT have this power. They had an every day experience of HOLDING the plates in their hands. No heavenly power required. None of the statements presented so far constitute any kind of contradiction.

But it IS pretty sad that an alleged authority on Smith would resort to such dishonest selecive quoting to make his point.

Interestingly enough, this fits well with Harris's statement that he had "hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth over them, but never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain." If the Eight Witnesses saw the plates through a lid on a box (possibly the tool chest of Joseph's late brother Alvin, which supposedly held the plates for a while according to Smith family tradition), Smith could have easily have filled the box with rocks to create the semblance of weight. In that manner, the witnesses could claim that they had "seen" (through a vision, or supernatural power) and "hefted" the plates without breaking the spirit of the above revelation, which preceded their testimony.

All I see there is a lot of "maybes" and "ifs" not to mention a hasty generalization fallacy.

This appears to fit with an 1854 report compiled by Illinois Governor Thomas Ford, which repeated information gathered from Church dissenters [aka, people like the Re-organized Church]. According to Ford, Smith sat a box before the witnesses and told them it contained the plates. After the men looked into the box with no result, Smith upbraided them, "O ye of little faith! How long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for forgiveness of your sins, and for a holy and living faith which cometh from heaven." After praying "two hours with fanatical earnestness," they again looked into the box and this time saw the plates.

Governor Ford has been proven to be an accompliss in the MURDER of Smith. You think his testiminy is reliable? Again, its sad that an alleged authority on Smith thinks it is.

The Testimony of those who held the plates

I also need to speak concerning the testimonies of those who claimed to hold the plates, but not necessarily see them. Although Lucy Mack Smith described holding them, William Smith gave one of the most detailed accounts: he "had hefted the plates in an old frock in which Joseph brought them home. He thumbed them through the cloth and ascertained that they were thin sheets of some kind of metal, and said he believed they weighed about sixty pounds. This is close to a description by Martin Harris, who, upon holding the plates, estimated their weight at "forty to fifty pounds."

If YOU had about 60 lbs of gold, would YOU hold it out in the open where anyone could see it?

This opens the possibility of Smith creating a fascimile set of plates to quell doubt. Smith himself said that the plates were "six inches wide, eight inches long, with each plate not quite so thick as common tin. The volume was something near six inches in thickness." The mention of the plates being "not quite so thick as common tin" may have been intended to put on skepticism about whether he created a set of plates from a common material. It would have been relatively easy for him to do so. Scraps of tin were available on the Smith property, and nearby, along with the necessary tools. During the several hours Smith was separated from his wife, Emma, and on other occasions when he visited the hill where the plates were buried, he could have easily have set up shop in the cave on the other side of the hill, or in the nearby forest. Using a pair of metal sheers, he could have cut sheets of tin in the appropriate dimensions, and used a nail or similar device to punch three holes in which to run a wire or bar through. William's and Harris's weight estimates actually appear to support this possibility. A block of solid tin with the dimensions 7X8X6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If you subtract 30 percent of the wieght due to the unevenness and space between the plates(plus the holes punched), the plates of tin would weight 52.27 pounds. By contrast, using the same calculations, plates of gold would weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; and mix of copper and gold, between 65 and 140 pounds, depending on the mixture used.

People post that the lack of evidence of Hebrew settlers is proof that it didn't happen. Where is the evidence of this tin smith shop of Josephs that was far more recent?

Since I mentioned it in a previous point, I might as well mention the two main instances when Joseph Smith participated in Methodism. The first was in 1824, when, according to Palmyra resident Orasamus Tucker, "Joseph Smith caught a spark of methodism in the camp meeting," and became a "very passable exhorter in evening meetings." Methodist exhorters were speakers drawn from the lay congregations and were licensed to deliver an "exhortation" at the end of the meeting, re-emphasizing the sermon's message and "exhorting" the congregation to follow its teaching.

In other words, it was NOT an official position in the church. Once again, we see that your original claim was exaggerated.

Smith may have, in fact, sought a legitimate conversion experience, since his previous primary occupation had been as a magical "seer" using a seeing stone to look for buried treasure, and he returned the seeing stone to Willard Chase, its original owner, for a year. This is significant, since when he reclaimed the stone in 1826, he refused to ever give it back.

More "may haves" and "might have beens". Thats nothing to get excited about.

The second time he temporarily joined a methodist congregation was with his wife, Emma, in 1828, after Martin Harris lost the first 119 translated pages of the Book of Mormon. The class met on Wednesday's, usually at the home of the Reverend Nathaniel Lewis, Emma's uncle. According to the pastor's son, Joseph, Smith "presented himself in a very serious and humble manner, and the minister agreed to put his name on the class book."

It doesn't say it was Smith's idea to have his name on the roll.

Back then, going to church is what you did on Sunday. If you didn't you were quickly ostracized from the community.

Joseph Lewis confronted Smith about this, and Smith chose to remove his name from the book of members. Joseph Lewis believed that Smith had been a class member for three days, but Michael Norse, Smith's brother-in-law, said "he was the 'leader' of the said 'class' and that to his certain knowledge Smith's name remained on the class book for about six months, when it was simply dropped, as Smith did not seek to become a full member." Although it has been claimed that Smith attended the services as a token gesture to his wife (whose family had ties to Methodism), or to her father, Isaac Hale), why, at this time, would Smith feel a need to please Isaac Hale? Why would attending a Methodist class please Emma (who professed belief in what Joseph was doing, and actually served as his temporary scribe in the early days of the translation)?

You can't think of a reason why someone would try to please their in-laws? You must not be married.

That was a beast, but I think it was worth it. I hope it explains a lot of things, and answers some questions.

It only shows once again that LDS critics are DESPERATE to INVENT things to criticize about the church.

You are correct about the initiation rituals. They do not, in of themself, constitute a form of brainwashing. However, I argue that the Mormon baptism ritual (which includes a "Confirmation of the Holy Ghost"), constitutes at least part of a brainwashing ritual.

The confirmation is simply a prayer said with hands laid on the person's head. None of the starvation, sleep depravation, exposure to NOTHING BUT recited dogma for days that USUALLY accompanies brainwashing.

People who are baptized into the LDS Church are told that the baptism has erased their previous sins. This is especially important for children who have turned eight years old (the age of baptism for Mormon children), and are told the above, and that from then on, they are responsible for their sins, and have to repent for them.

Heaven forbid we should actually be ACCOUNTABLE for our mistakes.

The second baptism-related ceremony, the Confirmation of the Holy Ghost, is the particularly important part. The Confirmation is supposed to grant the confirmee the presence and guidance of the Holy Ghost (the third member of the Godhead Trinity according to the LDS Church, and the source of the feeling of whether you are doing something right or wrong). The subjective feeling of the Holy Ghost, which most Mormons describe as a "burning in the bosom," becomes the emotional basis for the Testimony of Mormons to the truthhood of the Mormon Church.

So? How does ANY of that constitute brainwashing?

[Darth Servo]

Being a righteous Mormon woman sucks. In exchange for a lifetime of loyalty to the Church, your husband gets to be a god, while you get to be . . . a breeding machine, pumping out spirit children after spirit children. Moreover, you are only one of probably several hundred such breeding machines. But I guess if your husband is a God, he can have companionship with you all at once.

It really is amazing how many non-members claim to know what the church teaches on various matters, especially this one since there has NEVER been any kind of statement on how spirit children are created by God.

[Darth Servo]

Would you believe that my Mormon ex-boyfriend had tried to seduce me/get me to join his church by saying I could be a Holy Uterus for all eternity? It's true. He tried. Suffice to say it didn't work at all. I also tried to talk some sense into him and showed him that genetics stuff I posted earlier, but that didn't bother him at all.

Yes, there are wackos in EVERY church.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Being a righteous Mormon woman sucks. In exchange for a lifetime of loyalty to the Church, your husband gets to be a god, while you get to be . . . a breeding machine, pumping out spirit children after spirit children. Moreover, you are only one of probably several hundred such breeding machines. But I guess if your husband is a God, he can have companionship with you all at once.

Sounds like the Chaos world described in Dead Sky Black Sun.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

It really is amazing how many non-members claim to know what the church teaches on various matters, especially this one since there has NEVER been any kind of statement on how spirit children are created by God.

Really? His description of the mormon afterlife matches pretty closely to my wife's description, and she was a member for at least 16 years. Maybe there's no official canon, but it sure sounds like the cult has an official story for spirit children.

Also, she pointed out that she was taught all Mormons get to be with and know their families in the afterlife, which nearly frightened her out of the church all by itself.

[Darth Servo]

Really? His description of the mormon afterlife matches pretty closely to my wife's description, and she was a member for at least 16 years. Maybe there's no official canon, but it sure sounds like the cult has an official story for spirit children.

Yes, urban legends are often wide spread and difficult to kill.

Also, she pointed out that she was taught all Mormons get to be with and know their families in the afterlife, which nearly frightened her out of the church all by itself.

Why would that scare her? Did she not like her family? Unless she thought that "know" was in the biblical sense of the word which is NOT church doctrine.

[Terr Fangbite]

Since there seems to have been alot of discussion on my reply in the past day, I won't quote as usual, just sum up some points.

Wong, your calling me an imbecile falls into two categories. You have either 1)commited the ad hominem fallacy because your arguement towards me and other mormons can be summed up as "You are an idiot, and so is everyone else that believes them" or 2)simple "me tooing"

Second, I find it interesting how much you are focusing on the race bit. The darkening of the skin was to distinguish between the original decendents of lamanites and Nephites. Call it a curse if you wish. The thing you keep missing is that dark=/= evil white =/= good. You talked of magically transforming and I said provide evidence. You evading or dropping that point? There are times in the BoM that the lamanites are better than the Nephites. I'm sure its easy for you to miss that since I doubt you've read it all.

Perinquus, you provide excellant examples of mass migrations of people bringing culture (even keeping contact with their previous culture). However this doesn't relate to the fact that only a family went over. Relating to the vikings (not sure if Perinquus said that or another) is not parrallel. The vikings came over with the men who had been making settlements. The BoM describes a family which came over after several years of living in a tent. Do you think that with your family you could go over to a foreign country and replicate your architecture to the point where it is distinctly familiar to your origin?

To everyone/anyone evading my challenge to prove the BoM describes the entirity of the Americas, I'm still waiting. What was that? You answer my challenge by saying "Moron, maybe they were never there!"? Funny, that seems to me an evasion.

Something I just recalled from my studies of the BoM. You talk of genetic testing of the Natives proving they were of asianic descent. Ok, I can buy that. However the things you are missing is that 1)it was just a family coming over 2)What Natives were tested? North? South? Everyone available? Just the ones around the research lab? Anyway, back to my point. The BoM describes a massive surge in population over a century which is not possible with just a family. This leads many to believe that they moved into the Americas and integrated with the society. Can your genetics trace a single family whose lineage was never replenished?

This same integration could explain why there is "no" cultural evidence for them. You are looking for a carbon copy of hebraic society in America. Tell me why this is the case. Tell me why a culture which shunned their ansesters would be a carbon copy.

Again and again and again I hear people shouting "THERE IS NOT EVIDENCE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE". I gave a long list of evidence which could lead to the BoM story's truth. Some were attacked, others were ignored. None of them have been "disproven". You're looking for some smoking gun, or a tablet saying "The BoM is true you retard". Guess what, thats not going to happen.

The difference between archeology in a desert, and that in a jungle (since central America is the best guess to where they landed) is something I really shouldn't have to explain. A desert has nothing but sand to destroy the evidence of people. The jungle has massive plants, animals etc which covered entire cities. We haven't even touched most of that jungle. Are you saying that with the little jungle we've searched that nothing else is possible to find? I'd better call those archeologists down there to tell them they're wasting money still digging.

In regards to steel, elephants, horses etc etc etc, I'll post on that later. Need to double check something.

[Lord Zentei]

I'll let Darth Wong answer the petty bullshit regarding your first "point".

Second, I find it interesting how much you are focusing on the race bit. The darkening of the skin was to distinguish between the original decendents of lamanites and Nephites. Call it a curse if you wish. The thing you keep missing is that dark=/= evil white =/= good. You talked of magically transforming and I said provide evidence. You evading or dropping that point? There are times in the BoM that the lamanites are better than the Nephites. I'm sure its easy for you to miss that since I doubt you've read it all.

So: dark skin is a curse from God upon those who offended him. This "dark=/= evil white =/= good" is not the point you imbecile, and it is you who are making evasions. As for magical transformations, it is you who bear the burden of proof since that is what the BoM describes.

Perinquus, you provide excellant examples of mass migrations of people bringing culture (even keeping contact with their previous culture). However this doesn't relate to the fact that only a family went over. Relating to the vikings (not sure if Perinquus said that or another) is not parrallel. The vikings came over with the men who had been making settlements. The BoM describes a family which came over after several years of living in a tent. Do you think that with your family you could go over to a foreign country and replicate your architecture to the point where it is distinctly familiar to your origin?

The Vikings who came over were tiny in number, hence their inability to maintain a foothold. Despite this, archeological evidence for their precens has been found.

To everyone/anyone evading my challenge to prove the BoM describes the entirity of the Americas, I'm still waiting. What was that? You answer my challenge by saying "Moron, maybe they were never there!"? Funny, that seems to me an evasion.

I find it extremely ironic that you keep accusing others of "evasions". Why the fuck should it matter whether the BoM describes the entirety of the Americas or not when not a trace has been found of these Nephites anywhere?

<snip> This same integration could explain why there is "no" cultural evidence for them. You are looking for a carbon copy of hebraic society in America. Tell me why this is the case. Tell me why a culture which shunned their ansesters would be a carbon copy.

We are not requiring a "carbon copy" you fool. We are expecting to see any trace of this mysterious civilization of yours with hebraic influence.

Again and again and again I hear people shouting "THERE IS NOT EVIDENCE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE". I gave a long list of evidence which could lead to the BoM story's truth. Some were attacked, others were ignored. None of them have been "disproven". You're looking for some smoking gun, or a tablet saying "The BoM is true you retard". Guess what, thats not going to happen. <snip>

Wonder why. And nice job shifting the burden of proof you retard. The complete absence of archeological evidence of any kind at all is a perfectly valid reason to be skeptical of the BoM, particularly when it describes an old world style civilization, of which no trace has survived.

In regards to steel, elephants, horses etc etc etc, I'll post on that later. Need to double check something.

Whatever.

[Mayabird]

Something I just recalled from my studies of the BoM. You talk of genetic testing of the Natives proving they were of asianic descent. Ok, I can buy that. However the things you are missing is that 1)it was just a family coming over 2)What Natives were tested? North? South? Everyone available? Just the ones around the research lab? Anyway, back to my point. The BoM describes a massive surge in population over a century which is not possible with just a family. This leads many to believe that they moved into the Americas and integrated with the society. Can your genetics trace a single family whose lineage was never replenished?

Someone didn't read the article. The testing was done all over the Americas, North through Central through South, all over everywhere. Actually, some things that were not mentioned in the story was that the genetic testing showed that some native Americans in northeastern Canada have genetypes only seen in northern Europe, bringing up the interesting possibility that some Europeans may have skirted the glaciers and come to the Americans a few thousand years ago. Not many, but a few. Maybe even just a family, and they integrated with the local population.

Funny, ain't it? A tiny group of Europeans a few thousand years ago that integrated with a population can still be traced in the Americas, and yet the supposed millions of iron-using horse-riding descendants leave not a trace. There are Ethiopians today who show the obvious Semitic gene markers from a migration to Africa thousands of years ago, and just by looking at them, you'd think they were your regular black Africans. The paths of Homo sapiens migrations throughout the world can be traced by seeing what populations are descended from what particular ancient person (represented by a certain gene).

And yet, NOTHING can be seen in the Americas. The burden of proof is on YOU to explain why the hell these millions of people with their iron and chariots and horses just suddenly vanished from the archaeological record and the DNA of the natives.

[Coyote]

Oh, damn us and our pesky "evidence" crap.

Terr, evidence of Semitic migration has been traced as far south as the Tanzania/South Africa region. Black African tribes have been found there with genetic markers prevelant in Hebrew physiology (the "Cohen gene"). The Rabbinate of Israel even has a category for the African Hebrews: "Falsh Mura", or Falashi-- like "Ashkenazi" and "Sephardic/Mizrachi". An old settlement exists in the jungle of Tanzania that shows Middle Eastern architectural lineage, although there is no conclusive proof that it was a Hebrew-built outpost.

Archaeologists can find campsites that were occupied for a night by a migrating band. They can determine the number of people and animals that were there. By studying types of food and garbage left behind, they can determine where they came from. Viking campsites with this low level of habitation activity can and have been found in North America.

None of the BoM claims have been located, and it seems that what is described is a civilization as advanced as mid-Empire Rome. Have you been to Rome, Terr? You are aware that Roman era ruins from that time period are still in existance, pretty much lying around the coutryside, even where no effort at preservation has been undertaken? The same with England, the British Isles, where one cannot say the desert has preserved them.

In the Americas, especially South and Central America, there are ruins but of distinct types-- Aztec, Incan, Mayan, Toltec, Olmec (and to the far north, the Pueblo/Navajo/Anasazi ruins). Guess what's missing? Writing. Alphabet. It's not there. No Hebrew, no Aramaic, no Arabic, no Akkadian, no Sanskrit... there's no Iron. There's no wheels. None of the stuff that should be there, as described in the BoM, is there. Where did it go?

You say its there... you, Servo... that darned pesky 'evidence' says otherwise. So it falls to you-- where is it?

[Perinquus]

Something I just recalled from my studies of the BoM. You talk of genetic testing of the Natives proving they were of asianic descent. Ok, I can buy that. However the things you are missing is that 1)it was just a family coming over 2)What Natives were tested? North? South? Everyone available? Just the ones around the research lab? Anyway, back to my point. The BoM describes a massive surge in population over a century which is not possible with just a family. This leads many to believe that they moved into the Americas and integrated with the society. Can your genetics trace a single family whose lineage was never replenished?

Someone didn't read the article. The testing was done all over the Americas, North through Central through South, all over everywhere. Actually, some things that were not mentioned in the story was that the genetic testing showed that some native Americans in northeastern Canada have genetypes only seen in northern Europe, bringing up the interesting possibility that some Europeans may have skirted the glaciers and come to the Americans a few thousand years ago. Not many, but a few. Maybe even just a family, and they integrated with the local population.

Funny, ain't it? A tiny group of Europeans a few thousand years ago that integrated with a population can still be traced in the Americas, and yet the supposed millions of iron-using horse-riding descendants leave not a trace. There are Ethiopians today who show the obvious Semitic gene markers from a migration to Africa thousands of years ago, and just by looking at them, you'd think they were your regular black Africans. The paths of Homo sapiens migrations throughout the world can be traced by seeing what populations are descended from what particular ancient person (represented by a certain gene).

And yet, NOTHING can be seen in the Americas. The burden of proof is on YOU to explain why the hell these millions of people with their iron and chariots and horses just suddenly vanished from the archaeological record and the DNA of the natives.

No, he obviously didn't read the article (might actually make him think). If he had, he would have found this point addressed therein:

I was amazed at the lengths that FARMS went too in order to prop up faith in the Book of Mormon. I felt that the only way I could be satisfied with FARMS explanations was to stop thinking. On the other hand I was also surprised at how readily the declarations of the prophets, including Joseph Smith, could be overlooked in order to salvage the wreck. Some argue that Joseph Smith was never clear about where the Lamanites were located. I doubt Joseph Smith felt it necessary to be specific because he so obviously thought that all American Indians were Lamanites. It is very clear in the Doctrine and Covenants that the God speaking to Joseph Smith thought the Indians in Missouri were Lamanites. The explanations of the FARMS researchers stretched the bounds of credibility to breaking point on almost every critical issue. I could not force myself to accept their conclusions no matter how hard I wanted it to be true. I continuously found myself thinking that there is a simple explanation for all this.

He eventually found that simply answer: the Book of Mormon is bunk.

[Perinquus]

Goddamit! Simple answer, not simply answer. Why don't we have an edit feature on this forum?

[Coyote]

Goddamit! Simple answer, not simply answer. Why don't we have an edit feature on this forum?

Folks'll go back and change shit and say, "uh, I didn't say that!"

[Darth Servo]

So: dark skin is a curse from God upon those who offended him. This "dark=/= evil white =/= good" is not the point you imbecile, and it is you who are making evasions. As for magical transformations, it is you who bear the burden of proof since that is what the BoM describes.

No. Its not. It doesn't say HOW it happened or even how long it took. All it says is it did. The fact of the matter is that in both cases of skin color change, it was described GENERATIONS after the rebellion or repentence in questions.

Nephi and his friends leave Laman and Lemuel and a few generations later they find that the Lamanites have dark skin. Easily accounted for by intermarrying with other people who already had darker skin.

Later a group of Lamanites leaves their main group and goes to live with the Nephites. Several generations later, they look like the light-skinned Nephites.

What do you think would happen if a small group of dark sinned people were freely intermarrying with a large group of light skinned people. Even though the genes for dark skin are dominant and the light skin recessive, the dark skin genes will still get diluted. Today when a black person marries a white person, their children still seem to get classified as "black" but their skin is NOT as dark as the black parent. Over several generations in a predominantly white society, the dark skin would fade.

The Vikings who came over were tiny in number, hence their inability to maintain a foothold. Despite this, archeological evidence for their precens has been found.

Tiny in number? HOW MANY came over? 100? 1000? Thats STILL a hell of a lot more than the maximum of 20 that came over described in the BofM.

In regards to steel, elephants, horses etc etc etc, I'll post on that later. Need to double check something.

Whatever.

Is it so difficult to imagine that these people used the same names they used in the eastern hemisphere to refer to the animals and plants they encountered in the western? Wheat could be their common term to refer to grain in general. And wild corn is NOTHING like what you buy today. Some species DO seem to resemble wheat more than what you or I recognize as corn today. Why couldnt' they call a llama a horse? We know they are two completely different species today but that was NOT known 2600 years ago.

After all is said and done, yes, accepting the mormon religion does require faith.

JUST LIKE EVERY RELIGION.

[Perinquus]

So: dark skin is a curse from God upon those who offended him. This "dark=/= evil white =/= good" is not the point you imbecile, and it is you who are making evasions. As for magical transformations, it is you who bear the burden of proof since that is what the BoM describes.

No. Its not. It doesn't say HOW it happened or even how long it took. All it says is it did. The fact of the matter is that in both cases of skin color change, it was described GENERATIONS after the rebellion or repentence in questions.

Nephi and his friends leave Laman and Lemuel and a few generations later they find that the Lamanites have dark skin. Easily accounted for by intermarrying with other people who already had darker skin.

Later a group of Lamanites leaves their main group and goes to live with the Nephites. Several generations later, they look like the light-skinned Nephites.

What do you think would happen if a small group of dark sinned people were freely intermarrying with a large group of light skinned people. Even though the genes for dark skin are dominant and the light skin recessive, the dark skin genes will still get diluted. Today when a black person marries a white person, their children still seem to get classified as "black" but their skin is NOT as dark as the black parent. Over several generations in a predominantly white society, the dark skin would fade.

We'd still find their genetic traces among Amerinds living today. And we don't.

The Vikings who came over were tiny in number, hence their inability to maintain a foothold. Despite this, archeological evidence for their precens has been found.

Tiny in number? HOW MANY came over? 100? 1000? Thats STILL a hell of a lot more than the maximum of 20 that came over described in the BofM.

Leif Ericsson's was the first to land here. He came in a single ship. And we don't know, but it was probably not even as large as the Gokstad ship. He may have had fewer than 20 men with him. His younger brother Thorvald came later, with also, IIRC correctly, only a single ship's company. Later Thorfinn Karlsefni came with about 160 men. That's not an order of magnitude greater. And moreover, these expeditions were all short. The 20 odd Hebrews from the BoM supposedly stayed all their lives, and introduced numerous Old World materials, animals, and plants. Where would be some evidence for this if it were true.

In regards to steel, elephants, horses etc etc etc, I'll post on that later. Need to double check something.

Whatever.

Is it so difficult to imagine that these people used the same names they used in the eastern hemisphere to refer to the animals and plants they encountered in the western? Wheat could be their common term to refer to grain in general. And wild corn is NOTHING like what you buy today. Some species DO seem to resemble wheat more than what you or I recognize as corn today. Why couldnt' they call a llama a horse? We know they are two completely different species today but that was NOT known 2600 years ago.

Are you seriously trying to claim that people 2600 years ago couldn't have told the difference between a Llama and a horse? This argument is both pathetic and desperate.

After all is said and done, yes, accepting the mormon religion does require faith.

JUST LIKE EVERY RELIGION.

The Mormon religion also requires something else. DENIAL.

[Darth Wong]

I can't believe these mountains of apologist tripe that Servo is spouting. I expect that kind of idiotic bullfuckery from Terr Fangbite, but I never thought Servo was this bad.

[Surlethe]

To everyone/anyone evading my challenge to prove the BoM describes the entirity of the Americas, I'm still waiting. What was that? You answer my challenge by saying "Moron, maybe they were never there!"? Funny, that seems to me an evasion.

Hmm. Let's look in the Book of Mormon.

[1:5] But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

[1:6] Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

[8] And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war -- yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

Well, it looks like God gave Lehi the entire new land, and his descendents "multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land." And yet, there is no trace of them whatsoever. I wonder why?

This same integration could explain why there is "no" cultural evidence for them. You are looking for a carbon copy of hebraic society in America. Tell me why this is the case. Tell me why a culture which shunned their ansesters would be a carbon copy.

Rather blatant false dilemma. As

We are not requiring a "carbon copy" you fool. We are expecting to see any trace of this mysterious civilization of yours with hebraic influence.

In fact, you've provided no evidence a civilization as described in the BoM could possibly have existed.

This is getting tiring. You're insisting on repeating the same basic points post after post: "By evading my opponents' point, I'm going to insist the BoM could have been true, and make idiotic appeals to ignorance to justify my claims about an American Hebraic civilization, even going so far as to subtly shift my position mid-argument to distance myself from the obviously laughable situation described in the Book of Mormon itself."

[Terr Fangbite]

I can't believe these mountains of apologist tripe that Servo is spouting. I expect that kind of idiotic bullfuckery from Terr Fangbite, but I never thought Servo was this bad.

Yawn Yawn.

As for magical transformations, it is you who bear the burden of proof since that is what the BoM describes.

So what? You want me to post the entire BoM on this site? Maybe a linky to it? I'm not going to say that god didn't magically transform lamenites to dark skinned. However, what I am saying is that no where in the BoM does it describe a lamanite magically becoming white. The burden of proof is on you to show it did happen. Come on. All it should take is one little verse.

Wonder why. And nice job shifting the burden of proof you retard. The complete absence of archeological evidence of any kind at all is a perfectly valid reason to be skeptical of the BoM, particularly when it describes an old world style civilization, of which no trace has survived.

There it is the, complete lack of evidence piece. Maybe you don't get it yet, but there is some evidence that the BoM could be true. I have placed some of it down. I will freely admit that there is a general lack of evidence "prooving" the BoM, but in the same kind, the evidence in no way disproves it either. We have wheels (did you people just go to sleep at the part where I stated two places where wheels have been found?), we have paintings of Black/White peoples on opposite sides, we have large cities as described in the BoM, forts, etc. But what you don't get is that your complete lack of evidence is Bull. I have already disproven that. I can't argue against that there is a general lack of evidence, but your complete lack is utter crap.

We are not requiring a "carbon copy" you fool. We are expecting to see any trace of this mysterious civilization of yours with hebraic influence.

Actually it does seem you require a carbon copy. You say unless there is hebraic writing, architecture, wheels, metal tools (which there are) that there is no possibility that the BoM can be true. Deny it all you want. You want Israel in America before you even take a glance towards the BoM again.

millions of iron-using horse-riding descendants

And this is found in what part of the BoM? The part you read while intoxicated?

Archaeologists can find campsites that were occupied for a night by a migrating band. They can determine the number of people and animals that were there. By studying types of food and garbage left behind, they can determine where they came from. Viking campsites with this low level of habitation activity can and have been found in North America.

The environment of Canada and central america are astoundly different. Do I need to explain this to you again? In a wet hot environment things which can be decomposed do so quickly. Why do you think that it only takes a year for a body to be decomposed completely in Louisiana?

There's no wheels.

I guess you guys were asleep then.

Some argue that Joseph Smith was never clear about where the Lamanites were located. I doubt Joseph Smith felt it necessary to be specific because he so obviously thought that all American Indians were Lamanites. It is very clear in the Doctrine and Covenants that the God speaking to Joseph Smith thought the Indians in Missouri were Lamanites.

So not only do you want carbon copy, you want perfection? Joseph Smith is human. He made a mistake, got too enthusiastic. I find it odd you want to crucify everything he did just because of one mistake.

Are you seriously trying to claim that people 2600 years ago couldn't have told the difference between a Llama and a horse? This argument is both pathetic and desperate.

Blaster rifles, phaser rifles...
Are you telling me people in the future couldn't tell the difference between an energy weapon and a projectile based weapon with rifleing? Also the same thing can be applied to Turbolasers. Just because its called a laser, don't make it a laser.

[SirNitram]

Terr, do you comprehend why a steel-crafting civilization would be quite noticable, and thus it's absense is equally blatant?

[Surlethe]

There it is the, complete lack of evidence piece. Maybe you don't get it yet, but there is some evidence that the BoM could be true. I have placed some of it down. I will freely admit that there is a general lack of evidence "prooving" the BoM, but in the same kind, the evidence in no way disproves it either.

Have you not been reading the thread? This point has been addressed multiple times. Lacking evidence is evidence of lacking.

All it should take is one little verse.

Well then, here's one.

[5:21] And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

[5:22] And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

Satisfied now?

Actually it does seem you require a carbon copy. You say unless there is hebraic writing, architecture, wheels, metal tools (which there are) that there is no possibility that the BoM can be true. Deny it all you want. You want Israel in America before you even take a glance towards the BoM again.

Scarecrow (or should I say strawman?).

And this is found in what part of the BoM? The part you read while intoxicated?

*Ahem*

[8] And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war -- yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

Also,

[18:25] And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

So not only do you want carbon copy, you want perfection? Joseph Smith is human. He made a mistake, got too enthusiastic. I find it odd you want to crucify everything he did just because of one mistake.

Joseph Smith was human. Had it occurred to you that maybe he was a liar?

Blaster rifles, phaser rifles...
Are you telling me people in the future couldn't tell the difference between an energy weapon and a projectile based weapon with rifleing? Also the same thing can be applied to Turbolasers. Just because its called a laser, don't make it a laser.

What the fuck? This makes no sense. At all. Are you trying to say they called llamas horses? Because that's batfuckery.