Vader's Injuries and Cloning

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-05-04 11:23pm

Midichlorian Rejection Syndrome ....

What? I didn't invent the stupid things!

*edit -- my bad, I mis-clicked and didn't search page 2 ... many inferences already on this one*

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-04 11:33pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Wait, how do you know the arm loss did absolutely nothing to reduce his power. Maybe it was already reduced, but it was considered too significant, so no one mentioned it outright.

There's nothing to suggest that the arm loss did reduce his power, though. You're just speculating.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-04 11:34pm

gladius wrote:There's nothing to suggest that the arm loss did reduce his power, though. You're just speculating.

It is perfectly logical that if loss of lots of body parts = loss of lots of power, then loss of a few body parts = loss of some power.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-04 11:46pm

I'm of the opinion that its not as simplistic as "body largely replaced with prosthesis = less Force potential." I think Anakin underwent such a trauma, came so close to death and was so broken as a man that it really damaged him, not just physically, but in the Force as well. Any lesser man would certainly have died. How much of his will, his power was sacrificed to cling to life? How much still is?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-04 11:47pm

Stravo wrote:We get hints in the ROTS trailers that Anakin cannot use the Force through his bionic arm

BS. Vader force-chokes how many people in the OT with hand gestures to help channel the Force?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-04 11:52pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:We get hints in the ROTS trailers that Anakin cannot use the Force through his bionic arm
BS. Vader force-chokes how many people in the OT with hand gestures to help channel the Force?

Obviously Vader can still use the force even though both of his arms are bionic (molten sand will do that to you.) As Primus says, its just a way to focus, the actual force emmination would come from the torso, or even just be conjured in thin air by the mind.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-04 11:55pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:We get hints in the ROTS trailers that Anakin cannot use the Force through his bionic arm
BS. Vader force-chokes how many people in the OT with hand gestures to help channel the Force?

In GL's ROTJ commentary he explicitly states that the cybernetics interfere with Vader's connection with the force not allowing him to achieve his full potential, one of the reasons why Palpy was trying to ditch him in favor of Luke (which as I noted in another thread boggles my mind as to why)

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-04 11:57pm

Are statements made by Lucas outside of the context of the films (or official writings) considered canon, though?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-04 11:57pm

Meh, why do commentaries count as canon? Its not in-universe, and in this case it really makes no fucking sense logically.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-05 12:00am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Meh, why do commentaries count as canon? Its not in-universe, and in this case it really makes no fucking sense logically.

Neither does not using cloned limbs for a society as advanced as the Wars Galaxy is to make the second most powerful man in the Empire whole again but I've got to live with that too.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-05 12:04am

Given the degree of damage Vader suffered, I seems reasonable that clone grafts wouldn't have done much good.

Not only is he missing all four limbs, but he has tremendous burns over all of his body, and his lungs are basically burned away.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-05 12:08am

Stravo wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Meh, why do commentaries count as canon? Its not in-universe, and in this case it really makes no fucking sense logically.
Neither does not using cloned limbs for a society as advanced as the Wars Galaxy is to make the second most powerful man in the Empire whole again but I've got to live with that too.

I've always figured the artifical limbs were a way of reminding Vader who was in control, Palpy's method of making sure he didnt try to overthrow him.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-05-05 01:21am

I think it might be that A force User has to concentrate to use the force at maximun potental. The fact Vader need a portible iron lung appears to make his concentrating harder thus lessoning his full potential. Palp may very well have put him in the suit on purpose just to make him less likely to try and overthrow him.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-05 01:23am

They could have solved the Force problem if they used cotton candy as an insulator for the mechanical parts.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2005-05-05 01:58am

Knife wrote:It's possible that it may go against religious beliefs of Jedi. Reverence of life and all that, to grow an organizim just to hack it's arm off an use it for your self. Talk about attachment.

maybe for the Jedi, but Vader is a Sith. Different type of animal. Sith have shown no regard for protecting life, other than their own.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-05 06:40am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'm of the opinion that its not as simplistic as "body largely replaced with prosthesis = less Force potential." I think Anakin underwent such a trauma, came so close to death and was so broken as a man that it really damaged him, not just physically, but in the Force as well. Any lesser man would certainly have died. How much of his will, his power was sacrificed to cling to life? How much still is?

Given the massive emotional, physical and 'spiritual' trauma Anakin will suffer in ROTS, I think looking for other mechanisms is foolish. He loses everything he cares about, turns his back on all his friends, and to top it all off he LOSES. Given his petulant, insecure arrogance, I'm quite surprised he's not mad - although he might be, depending on your point of view.

If the Force is affected by your state of mind, how could a man constantly haunted by his own abject and total failure retain his power?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-05 10:19am

Stravo wrote: In GL's ROTJ commentary he explicitly states that the cybernetics interfere with Vader's connection with the force not allowing him to achieve his full potential, one of the reasons why Palpy was trying to ditch him in favor of Luke

How does that translate into "Anakin cannot use the Force through his bionic arm"? Confusing two seperate issues. Vader's injuries weakened him substantially.

(which as I noted in another thread boggles my mind as to why)

Because you're treating EU characterizations of the motivations of a mad clone as the true characterizations of the character in the films. They're really quite noting alike.

At all. Serious.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2005-05-05 05:18pm

gladius wrote:Given the degree of damage Vader suffered, I seems reasonable that clone grafts wouldn't have done much good.

Not only is he missing all four limbs, but he has tremendous burns over all of his body, and his lungs are basically burned away.

BS- the SW galaxy could easily grow a full scale clone of him and use clone for replacement parts. Hell, given the tech level they could probably just do a brain transplant surgery to the clone.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-05-05 05:28pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:BS- the SW galaxy could easily grow a full scale clone of him and use clone for replacement parts. Hell, given the tech level they could probably just do a brain transplant surgery to the clone.

But would Palpy have been willing to risk it? Better to keep him in servitude, me thinks.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2005-05-06 12:31pm

JME2 wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:BS- the SW galaxy could easily grow a full scale clone of him and use clone for replacement parts. Hell, given the tech level they could probably just do a brain transplant surgery to the clone.
But would Palpy have been willing to risk it? Better to keep him in servitude, me thinks.

He's obviously not happy with machine Vader- since he's trying to replace him with Luke- so I don't see him having a problem with it.

Adrian Tullberg · Post by **Adrian Tullberg** » 2005-05-08 05:43am

A quick survival method becomes the Emperor's leash - by denying Vader clone-part surgery limits Vader's potential until the Emperor's good and ready.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-08 10:40am

Palpatine was good and ready when Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. I cannot stress this enough- Palpatine wanted the most powerful apprentice possible, end of story.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-08 12:44pm

Vympel wrote:Because you're treating EU characterizations of the motivations of a mad clone as the true characterizations of the character in the films. They're really quite noting alike. At all. Serious.

You can't argue that objectively, and ROTJ Palpatine wanted a more-powerful Luke as a replacement.

The simplest explanation is Palpatine must dominate and control because he is a megalomaniacal narcissist. Palpatine had to destroy all who used the Force or bend them into simply extensions of himself.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-08 12:44pm

Vympel wrote:Palpatine was good and ready when Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. I cannot stress this enough- Palpatine wanted the most powerful apprentice possible, end of story.

One has to admit that he can't get used to that newest, secret revelation as to his reasons. I mean he trusts him. Really.

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