Religion and brainwashing

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-05 07:43pm

This thread has probably been duplicated in the history of this site, but I'd prefer to be able to hear and actually interact with newer oppinions on the subject of religion. I have said before, in another thread, that children are taught religion before they have the ability to question it. Could this be a form of brainwashing? I mean, trying to teach somebody something that you don't definatively know as true at a point in time where what they believe is completely subject to your will sounds a bit like brainwashing. However, there are also rare cases in which people rejected the indoctrination, so it may be untrue that our minds are totally subject to our parent's control, even at very early ages. Is it morally right to teach your children a belief that you yourself can't prove at an age too early for them to question? This also begs the question of whether or not it's proper to teach them that all religions are crap, when we can't be certain of that position either (I'm not stating that belief is rational, just that it's unfalsifiable). If someone has been indoctrinated before they had the ability to refuse, can they be blamed for it? Just was hoping for some thoughts.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-05 07:48pm

I'll just use the Catholic Church as an example.

Parents bring children into the Catholic Church as a benefit to their children, not because they are "brainwashing" them. It's like disciplining children at an early age, it's not brainwashing, but it's for the benefit of the child.

I hope that clarifies.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-05 07:57pm

Castor Troy wrote:Parents bring children into the Catholic Church as a benefit to their children, not because they are "brainwashing" them. It's like disciplining children at an early age, it's not brainwashing, but it's for the benefit of the child.

How does it benefit the child?

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-05-05 07:59pm

Firefox wrote:How does it benefit the child?

Think from a religious standpoint Firefox. [religious person]If you want your child to go to heaven, learn morality and all that, where else but the church?[/rp]

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-05 08:00pm

The Spartan wrote:
Firefox wrote:How does it benefit the child?
Think from a religious standpoint Firefox. [religious person]If you want your child to go to heaven, learn morality and all that, where else but the church?[/rp]

Ahah. In that case, I'll repent for the error of my ways.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-05 08:01pm

It probably is brain-washing to teach the child something they cannot understand the reason of. However, brain-washing is not really immoral, because it only handicaps the person from reason in that particular area. We all know that fundies can be perfectly rational people, excluding their religion, where they have fortified a WOI. If you brain-wash a child into believing in magical coconut-humping monkeys that punish you if you act wrongly to your fellow man, is that really so bad? The problem occurs if your brain-washing teaches them bad things, like homophoebia and other such things.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-05 08:03pm

Firefox wrote:
Castor Troy wrote:Parents bring children into the Catholic Church as a benefit to their children, not because they are "brainwashing" them. It's like disciplining children at an early age, it's not brainwashing, but it's for the benefit of the child.
How does it benefit the child?

Getting baptism as early as possible to get rid of original sin, as well as bringing them closer to the faith.

Of course, that's just what is taught, so I question most of it.

I personally think that the parents should be there to offer the choice, and provide the baptism, but not be there to say "you will do this, you will do that" against the child's will, because that's just forcing religion on them, while at the same time providing direction on the way to go.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-05 08:04pm

But you yourself can't help but be uncertain of heaven or hell, and of the existance of God. If you're introducing it to your children as a certainty before they can distinguish for themselves, at the very least, you're being dishonest. I know several people who've been disciplined by religion, and still aren't good or honest people, so this obviously isn't necessarily the best or most honest way to teach morality. I personally don't see the difference between shoving religion down a child's throat before he can question, and brainwashing. If the brainwasher himself has been brainwashed, then he will believe it to be good for his child, but it may not be in any realistic way.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-05 08:09pm

Castor Troy wrote:
Firefox wrote:
Castor Troy wrote:Parents bring children into the Catholic Church as a benefit to their children, not because they are "brainwashing" them. It's like disciplining children at an early age, it's not brainwashing, but it's for the benefit of the child.
How does it benefit the child?
Getting baptism as early as possible to get rid of original sin, as well as bringing them closer to the faith.

Of course, that's just what is taught, so I question most of it.

I personally think that the parents should be there to offer the choice, and provide the baptism, but not be there to say "you will do this, you will do that" against the child's will, because that's just forcing religion on them, while at the same time providing direction on the way to go.

Of course, that goes under the assumption that the original sin exists, and that baptism is anything more than dunking yourself in water, and that bringing a child closer to the faith is a good thing. You could say the same thing about a Satanist cult:

"Yes, bringing our child into the Church of Satan will benefit the child. We can complete the masturbation ceremony to affirm his link with the Prince of Darkness and draw him closer to the faith."

You see? Completing an arbitrary ritual within some church does nothing but gratify the parents, who were probably brain-washed themselves.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-05 08:12pm

It's not largely for secular benefits, it's for the most part to help the person's religious life. It could benefit the person mentally, such as them having confidence that a supreme diety is watching over them, from a psychological stand point. However, I don't know too much about the human psyche, so I'll just leave it at there.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-05-05 08:18pm

Oh yes, and this is just what the benefits supposedly are. I myself really don't have a well thought opinion on the matter.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-05 08:22pm

Believing that something out there is protecting you might actually be a drawback, as you'll feel less need to actually do something, and be more likely to pray when a situation calls for action.

As for the comment about the church of satan.. they don't actually worship satan. That's a bit of a myth. If you want to know more, look into religious satanism. It's an interesting philosophy.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-05 10:04pm

It's brainwashing. I rejected my parents religion when I was four.

Amusingly, you could argue parents force their kids into religion at an age where the couldn't possibly understand what they're doing for totally selfish reasons. They'd doubtless be ashamed if their children weren't 'good little Godites' when their friends came around, just as they would if their children were gay, or smarter than them, or whatever.

Lets not forget that this brainwashing often totally destroys someone's mind. Most people, regardless of education later in life, are unable to free themselves from these ideas. I've known intelligent and educated people - even fucking BIOLOGISTS - who have a massive hole in their mind where they can't be rational. Just like how people can never recover from child abuse, and feel the effects for the rest of their lives.

Yay religion! Parents have the right to completely fuck up their kids!

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-05-05 11:53pm

anecdote for you.

I take religion class, college level. buddy of mine is catholic, and we have to read the divinci code.

the catholic church says dont read it, so he doesnt. gets a zero on the quiz.

hes skittering on failing anyway when he does this. you tell me if its brainwashing, when he'll kill his gpa and waste 500 dollars for the church.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-05-06 12:00am

LOL He didn't do a reading because it was heresy or magic or something? Thats gold!

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-06 07:17am

Stark, I also rejected religion at an early age. I was three when I asked my mom why the earth couldn't have just always been here. She looked at me like I'd done something wrong, so I knew then that I didn't have to believe anything, but hiding what I think might be good.

I do believe it's a kind of form of brainwashing, of only because of the aftereffects, where it's extremely difficult to break someone of their beliefs that have been instilled in them. Teaching someone something that you can't know when they're too young to reject it is just crap...

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-05-06 09:11am

Enforcer Talen wrote:anecdote for you.

I take religion class, college level. buddy of mine is catholic, and we have to read the divinci code.

the catholic church says dont read it, so he doesnt. gets a zero on the quiz.

hes skittering on failing anyway when he does this. you tell me if its brainwashing, when he'll kill his gpa and waste 500 dollars for the church.

Now all we need is some religious student to fail a quiz on Harry Potter because they refused to read it as Ratzinger said its bad.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-05-06 09:32am

While we're sharing youthful skeptic stories, when I was about 5 I once asked my minister how we knew the Bible just hadn't been made up by some prankster. I don't recall what he said but I know it wasn't very satisfying, although it took another 9 years before I finally ditched it.

Anyway, Sunday School is a perfect example of brainwashing, as is confirmation class. In my former church's confirmation class (Protestant confirmation, BTW) we were taught about how all the various battles in the Bible were either righteous or necessary, and that the genocide of the Egyptian first-born was necessary, etc.

Sunday School is even worse, since you're basically imposing all these fables on impressionable young minds, but it's worse than simple fables because Biblical fables tend towards the morally repugnant, and once that seed is planted the stage is set for fundiesm and irrationality.

Ahurazithramis · Post by **Ahurazithramis** » 2005-05-06 09:52am

There was nothing wrong with my sunday school. Our job was just to sit there and listen. We didn't have to be brainwashed.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-05-06 10:15am

wolveraptor wrote:It probably is brain-washing to teach the child something they cannot understand the reason of. However, brain-washing is not really immoral, because it only handicaps the person from reason in that particular area. We all know that fundies can be perfectly rational people, excluding their religion, where they have fortified a WOI. If you brain-wash a child into believing in magical coconut-humping monkeys that punish you if you act wrongly to your fellow man, is that really so bad? The problem occurs if your brain-washing teaches them bad things, like homophoebia and other such things.

brainwashing them to believe that something is 100% infallible when it's been shown to blatantly have numerous errors and inaccuracies can be just as harmful as other things you described above. i need only point out the piss poor grasp of basic sciences that people seem to have in the US as an example.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-05-06 10:20am

Castor Troy wrote:
Getting baptism as early as possible to get rid of original sin, as well as bringing them closer to the faith.

Tottally unneeded, you can baptise the child yourself.

Melchior · Post by **Melchior** » 2005-05-06 11:37am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Castor Troy wrote:
Getting baptism as early as possible to get rid of original sin, as well as bringing them closer to the faith.
Tottally unneeded, you can baptise the child yourself.

If you are catholic, you can't.
Still, brainwashing someone because you believe that it will improve his relations with a parsimony-violator god is wrong.

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2005-05-06 01:34pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Sunday School is even worse, since you're basically imposing all these fables on impressionable young minds, but it's worse than simple fables because Biblical fables tend towards the morally repugnant, and once that seed is planted the stage is set for fundiesm and irrationality.

It is possible for a Sunday School class to do minimal damage. In the Sunday School class I teach to first and second grade children (I'm an atheist, BTW; don't ask why I'm teaching Sunday School), we fill about 5 minutes with stupid Bible-inspired puzzles (help the shepherd find the lost sheep!), another 5 minutes with something about Jesus that they've already heard ten times before, and then toss a beach ball around for half an hour.

Once we had to do a Tower of Babel lesson, so we had the kids build towers out of blocks then had a mean bully named "God" come and kick them over.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2005-05-06 01:51pm

I've had a wide variety of experiences with Sunday school (commonly referred to as CCD or, as my sister and I interpreted the acronym, "Catholic Childrens' Dungeon"). On one hand, there was this one time (I was in 2nd or 3rd grade when this happened) the CCD teacher showed us a video with this asshat railing against evolution (I live in a blue state, BTW). As young and impressionable as I was, I thought, "What makes this idiot refuse to believe in evolution? Seeing as how God is supposed to be all powerful and everything, couldn't he just use evolution to make everything?" Didn't realize until much later that there was actually a name for that idea. I think I was able to resist that guy's insane rantings because he was disputing the existence of dinosaurs, and I thought dinosaurs were t3h shit.

On the other hand, there were the CCD classes leading up to my confirmation, where myself and the others in my class would try (very successfully I might add) to hijack every single class and just talk about whatever we felt like talking about. Teacher did little more than superficial attempts to actually keep the conversation on a religious thread.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-05-06 02:06pm

Maybe. But there's one thing I'm wondering about. I'm a fairly religious social conservative, but I live in Berkeley California and both my parents were liberals. How did that happen? I can't for the life of me imagine anything religious I was exposed to in that environment frequently enough to brainwash me.
I think maybe it's some sort of weird form of rebellion (or counterrebellion, as the case may be).