A Kirk question

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-05-03 09:36am

Is it ever stated that Kirk was youngest Starfleet captain and if so were and more importantly when (if was during TOS for example there's no reason for younger to exist after that episode)?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-05-03 09:45am

I don't think it was explicitly stated on screen that he was the youngest; there may have been a mention in the TMP novelisation, but that isn't canon.

The Startrek.com bio says he was the youngest captain in the fleet, presumably until today.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-03 09:55am

At 33 it was stated that Kirk was the youngest person to ever achieve the rank of Captain. However by TNG era I think that is no longer the case. However considering the responsibilties of a captain I can't see how someone younger than 33 can be saddled with that position realistically. Hell I think 33 is a bit young IMHO.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-05-03 10:02am

Stravo wrote:At 33 it was stated that Kirk was the youngest person to ever achieve the rank of Captain. However by TNG era I think that is no longer the case. However considering the responsibilties of a captain I can't see how someone younger than 33 can be saddled with that position realistically. Hell I think 33 is a bit young IMHO.

where was this stated.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-03 10:11am

Lord Revan wrote:
Stravo wrote:At 33 it was stated that Kirk was the youngest person to ever achieve the rank of Captain. However by TNG era I think that is no longer the case. However considering the responsibilties of a captain I can't see how someone younger than 33 can be saddled with that position realistically. Hell I think 33 is a bit young IMHO.
where was this stated.

There is an episode I believe where Kirk is up for a courtmartial and that comes out along with his service record which is chock full of medals and citations.

It is also repeated several times in some fluff materials and books. Non canon I know.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-05-03 12:22pm

Stravo wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Stravo wrote:At 33 it was stated that Kirk was the youngest person to ever achieve the rank of Captain. However by TNG era I think that is no longer the case. However considering the responsibilties of a captain I can't see how someone younger than 33 can be saddled with that position realistically. Hell I think 33 is a bit young IMHO.
where was this stated.
There is an episode I believe where Kirk is up for a courtmartial and that comes out along with his service record which is chock full of medals and citations.

It was in "The Deadly Years" when Kirk and his officers were hyper-ageing. Commodore Stocker had forced the calling of a competency hearing, and when the computer reported Kirk's physological age at that point to be somewhere between 60 and 70, he protested that he was only 34 years old. That's when his age was established firmly in the series. Given that it was a second season episode, we can assume that Kirk may have been at an even younger age when he earned his first command post.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-05-03 01:41pm

if the second pilot is in 2265 and "The Deadly Years" is in 2267. Kirk was 32 (at most) when he was promoted to captain (he could of course be even younger)

XANATOS · Post by **XANATOS** » 2005-05-05 07:07pm

acording to the book about the first voyage of the
enterprize under kirk he was 29 when he took command
of the entrrprize and this was his second command
i forget the name of the book

XANATOS

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2005-05-05 07:29pm

XANATOS wrote:acording to the book about the first voyage of the
enterprize under kirk he was 29 when he took command
of the entrrprize and this was his second command
i forget the name of the book

XANATOS

I think the book was called, "Enterprise", by Vonda McIntrye. It's not canon, though it does contain a lot of unofficial information that was, uh, canonized in the sixth movie (like Sulu's first name and Kirk's middle name).

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2005-05-05 07:38pm

Are we sure that Kirk's actual rank was captain? There is precedent (in RL) for officers being given command of a vessel when holding a rank of less than captain. Such officers would hold the appointment of "captain of the ship" (or something like that), but their actual grade would be lower.

I realize that later in TOS, Kirk's actual rank was firmly established as captain. He may have been promoted at some point between being given command of the Enterprise and that episode.

(Please note that I'm merely playing devil's advocate here. I don't actually believe that we've been talking about the adventures of Lt. Commander Kirk all this time.)

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-05-05 08:47pm

Doubtful a Lt Commander would be given command of a line vessel without promotion to Full captian

Enigma · Post by **Enigma** » 2005-05-05 09:11pm

Isolder74 wrote:Doubtful a Lt Commander would be given command of a line vessel without promotion to Full captian

No but a Commander might.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-05-05 11:36pm

SCRawl wrote:Are we sure that Kirk's actual rank was captain? There is precedent (in RL) for officers being given command of a vessel when holding a rank of less than captain. Such officers would hold the appointment of "captain of the ship" (or something like that), but their actual grade would be lower.

I realize that later in TOS, Kirk's actual rank was firmly established as captain. He may have been promoted at some point between being given command of the Enterprise and that episode.

(Please note that I'm merely playing devil's advocate here. I don't actually believe that we've been talking about the adventures of Lt. Commander Kirk all this time.)

I doubt he was any less than a full Captain. Hell, IIRC, every starship commander we saw in TOS outranked Kirk... it wouldn't make much sense for him to be the only Commander amongst a bunch of Fleet Captains and Commodores, with nothing in between.

Also, I don't think the rank insignia changed over the course of the series.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-06 04:06am

You don't get command of a battleship at the rank of Commander.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 2005-05-06 06:34am

You don't get command of a battleship at the rank of Commander.

Commander Sisko did.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-06 06:45am

jasonicusuk wrote:
You don't get command of a battleship at the rank of Commander.

Commander Sisko did.

No he didn't. The USS Defiant is an escort ship. Which would make it a heavy destroyer or thereabouts.

For the record, Kirk didn't either. The Constitution class is considered a heavy cruiser by the Starfleet of the day, and a battlecruiser by their contemporary adversaries, the Klingons.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-06 06:45am

jasonicusuk wrote:Commander Sisko did.

The Defiant was not a battleship. It was a ship designed for battle, true, but certainly according to the TMP novel, the Heavy Cruiser designation the Enterprise-A conforms to our understanding of the word battleship.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-06 06:48am

NecronLord wrote:
jasonicusuk wrote:Commander Sisko did.
The Defiant was not a battleship. It was a ship designed for battle, true, but certainly according to the TMP novel, the Heavy Cruiser designation the Enterprise-A conforms to our understanding of the word battleship.

The -A was from Voyage Home, and I thought that there was mention of a Federation 'dreadnought' in the TMP novel which was a separate class from the Connie?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-06 06:51am

A and Nil are 'heavy cruisers'

In any case, a dreadnought would be something like the excelsior. A cutting edge battleship class.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-06 06:53am

Ok, but you mentioned something in the TMP seems to suggest the Connie would be classed as a battleship by our standards, regardless of whether or not it's canon designation is heavy cruiser or 'battlecruiser' (gotta love what the other guys think of your ships

) - so what is it? I haven't read the novelisation so I don't know nor can I check it out.

[EDIT] 'What is it?' - I mean what does the TMP say about the connie?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-05-06 06:55am

In any case, a dreadnought would be something like the excelsior.

Or this monstrosity, visible on the displays in TSFS

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-06 06:56am

Kirk thinks about the ship, and thinks how silly it is to call it a heavy cruiser for political reasons, when it warrants the designation of battleship.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 2005-05-06 07:05am

The Defiant was not a battleship. It was a ship designed for battle, true, but certainly according to the TMP novel, the Heavy Cruiser designation the Enterprise-A conforms to our understanding of the word battleship.

A subtlty I missed, Thanks Necron. The Defiant being an escort or heavy fighter, I suppose.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-05-06 07:07am

No just an escort capship that handles like a fighter for some insane reason. It was called an escort ship in "The Search" part one.