Jem Hadar soldiers vs Clone Troopers

[NecronLord]

Refinements reduced Clone Wars growing times to a single year.

[Darth Wong]

In a one on one situation the CTs take it easy. They are just better than the Jems. However it takes a decade to grow and train a CT vs a few weeks for the Jems, quantity is a quality in itself. Cheap cannonfodder can overcome superior troops in long attrition campaigns.

There's no point talking about larger campaign issues in a thread with a very specific matchup, particularly when the Dominion is utterly fucked in a campaign scenario anyway. All of the fast-grown clone troops in the galaxy won't help you when your enemy can burn your cities to the ground and vapourize your starbases at will.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Refinements reduced Clone Wars growing times to a single year.

And according to Lando it was rumored the clonemasters found a way to circumvent even that barrier, and produce clones ate the rate Thrawn did.

[sock]

The Jem Hadar could win it.

That is if they manage to catch the CTs while they are all very fast asleep round the campfire after having had a tiring singalong.

Otherwise I guess the CTs could just use standard Fire & Maneuver tactics and wipe them out very quickly.

Or alternatlively just continually head in the opposite direction of the Jem Hadar until they die of their need for their Camambert White or whatever it's called

[NecronLord]

Otherwise I guess the CTs could just use standard Fire & Maneuver tactics and wipe them out very quickly.

The ones they so spectacularly failed to demonstrate at Geonosis you mean?

[sock]

Good point

But what was so spectacular about it? I don't think they failed to demonstrate it, I just don't think the battle conditions called for it

[Enforcer Talen]

bu they *did* call for standing up in napoleanic tactics to get mauled by modern weaponry?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

For what it's worth, the Jems DO eat. The baby Jem ASKED for food!
The baby Jem had NO KW until it was teensized.
I think the "Jems don't eat" is a brainbug.
Use some logic here. How many callories does it take to run a mile? How many callories per cubic centimeter can ANY carbon based food have?
Jemmies life support is identical to Fed's, so Jemmies burn oxygen, and exhaust CO2, therefor Jemmies burn hyrdocarbons.

Even TNT or C4 doesn't have the callories per cc.
What, is this some nuclear powered food?

[sock]

bu they *did* call for standing up in napoleanic tactics to get mauled by modern weaponry?

so what would have been a more efficient tactic then?

just because a tactic is old when compared to weaponry it doesn't mean its not viable or a sign of weakness.

tactics are dictated by the battle, not on how up to date the weapons are

what tactic would you have used for Geonosis?

[Stravo]

bu they *did* call for standing up in napoleanic tactics to get mauled by modern weaponry?

so what would have been a more efficient tactic then?

just because a tactic is old when compared to weaponry it doesn't mean its not viable or a sign of weakness.

tactics are dictated by the battle, not on how up to date the weapons are

what tactic would you have used for Geonosis?

Its called advancing from a base of fire.

Its called utilizing covering fire and shoot and scoot tactics.

Its called basic WWII tactics for a weapons level that is millennia ahead of anything we have.

How do you justify standing in front of the enemy's line and simply firing willy nilly into the opposing body of troops? Where was the coordinating counter fire, where were the rapid assualts. They had air superiority, in fact more like supremacy and you didn't see LAATs droping clusters of clones in chokepoints or behind enemy lines.

They stood there and with absolutely no coordination with the man next to him simply pumped fire blindly into the opposing enemy lines.

You had open flat terrain and heavy armored assault vehicles...that's called a recipe for armored spearhead assaults to let the infantry expolit the breach. You don't get better than that terrain for tankers. Instead we get the AT-TE's strolling towards the enemy lines behind a line of infantry that is equally walking towards the enemy lines without so much as ducking.

[Darth Wong]

In defense of the clonetroopers, this was the very first batch ever produced, with training of unknown quality, by Kaminoans whose specialty was cloning rather than warfare. Not one veteran in the entire group; they were all green, every last one of them. I would assume that their tactics improved as the Clone Wars dragged on; at Hoth we certainly didn't see a line of snowtroopers advancing in a human wall with AT-ATs behind them.

But for all that, they still have characteristics that the Feddies lack, like the ability to lay down sufficiently accurate high-volume fire that enemies can't simply charge into their midst without getting cut down first. So if the Jem'Hadar can be held off for six months by Feddies, they will get 0wned badly by clonetroopers.

[Vympel]

In defense of the clonetroopers, this was the very first batch ever produced, with training of unknown quality, by Kaminoans whose specialty was cloning rather than warfare. Not one veteran in the entire group; they were all green, every last one of them. I would assume that their tactics improved as the Clone Wars dragged on; at Hoth we certainly didn't see a line of snowtroopers advancing in a human wall with AT-ATs behind them.

But for all that, they still have characteristics that the Feddies lack, like the ability to lay down sufficiently accurate high-volume fire that enemies can't simply charge into their midst without getting cut down first. So if the Jem'Hadar can be held off for six months by Feddies, they will get 0wned badly by clonetroopers.

From the glimpses of battle we see on Kashyyk, there seems to be a marked improvement- no line of Clonetroopers, just advancing Juggernauts and AT-RTs, while the Droids seem to have improved as well- there are standard Battle Droids riding on the side of tank droids and supported by Droid Gunships.

(This is all in the trailers)

[wilfulton]

This thread is extremely unfair. The Clone Troopers would simply shout "Look! Moving Targets!" and start blasting away until one of them hangs his head and says "Damn, we ran out of targets."

Since we all know the outcome of that one, how about both sides have no armor, and no weapons, and no special toys (ie personal cloaks) so they have to fight with just their fists. Then who would win?

(let's say Q is prodding both sides with invisible sticks so they have to fight, I mean, siege warfare is effective, but waiting your enemy out is extremely boring, and who can build the biggest statue with his dirty socks is not a very interesting discussion thread ).

[Anarchist Bunny]

In defense of the clonetroopers, this was the very first batch ever produced, with training of unknown quality, by Kaminoans whose specialty was cloning rather than warfare. Not one veteran in the entire group; they were all green, every last one of them. I would assume that their tactics improved as the Clone Wars dragged on; at Hoth we certainly didn't see a line of snowtroopers advancing in a human wall with AT-ATs behind them.

But for all that, they still have characteristics that the Feddies lack, like the ability to lay down sufficiently accurate high-volume fire that enemies can't simply charge into their midst without getting cut down first. So if the Jem'Hadar can be held off for six months by Feddies, they will get 0wned badly by clonetroopers.

Another thing is, this was the first major war in how many years? The Brittish suffered a lot of casualties in the 1700/1800 wars IIRC because they hadn't adjusted to the tactics of the time. Battles were usually lines of men firing guns at each other and then bayonettings. Took a while before better tactics were devised and implimented.

[NecronLord]

For what it's worth, the Jems DO eat. The baby Jem ASKED for food!
The baby Jem had NO KW until it was teensized.
I think the "Jems don't eat" is a brainbug.
Use some logic here. How many callories does it take to run a mile? How many callories per cubic centimeter can ANY carbon based food have?
Jemmies life support is identical to Fed's, so Jemmies burn oxygen, and exhaust CO2, therefor Jemmies burn hyrdocarbons.

Even TNT or C4 doesn't have the callories per cc.
What, is this some nuclear powered food?

DAX
There must be something else you'd
rather do. Maybe get some sleep?

VIRAK'KARA
We don't sleep.

DAX
How about have something to eat?

VIRAK'KARA
The White is the only thing we
need.


DAX
You don't sleep or eat? What do
you do for relaxation?

VIRAK'KARA
Relaxation would only make us weak.

O'BRIEN
Believe me, cadet. It's not your
feet that you need to worry about.
It's your stomach. Maybe you
haven't noticed, but there isn't
a single food replicator aboard
this ship.

DEEP SPACE NINE: "A Time to Stand" - REV. 7/31/97 - ACT THREE 31.

22 CONTINUED: (2)

NOG
That shouldn't be a problem.
Captain Sisko says we'll have
plenty of field rations.

O'BRIEN
(with a laugh)
Try eating nothing but field
rations for three weeks and then
tell me it's not a problem.

Logic has nothing to do with the Dominion Races, or has it escaped your notice that Odo is a perpetual motion machine?

[sock]

Its called advancing from a base of fire.

Its called utilizing covering fire and shoot and scoot tactics.

Its called basic WWII tactics for a weapons level that is millennia ahead of anything we have.

How do you justify standing in front of the enemy's line and simply firing willy nilly into the opposing body of troops? Where was the coordinating counter fire, where were the rapid assualts. They had air superiority, in fact more like supremacy and you didn't see LAATs droping clusters of clones in chokepoints or behind enemy lines.

They stood there and with absolutely no coordination with the man next to him simply pumped fire blindly into the opposing enemy lines.

You had open flat terrain and heavy armored assault vehicles...that's called a recipe for armored spearhead assaults to let the infantry expolit the breach. You don't get better than that terrain for tankers. Instead we get the AT-TE's strolling towards the enemy lines behind a line of infantry that is equally walking towards the enemy lines without so much as ducking.

i do know all of this

but at the end of the day they won didn't they?

sure, it would have been nice to see these tactics being implemented on screen, but they didn't seem to need them. plus, the Jedi appeared to have operational command. if anyone is to blame for them not using efficient and sound tactics then its most likely yoda and the rest of the jedi. so far we haven't really seen the CTs operate under their own initiative. unless they do so in EP III, but not having seen it yet I can't really comment.

but the point in this discussion is how the CTs would deal with the Jem Hadar, not how they fought the battle of Geonosis.

against the Jem Hadar I can see it being quite close, but I think the CTs would clinch the victory

[Jay]

or has it escaped your notice that Odo is a perpetual motion machine?

I remember trying to rationalise Odo's biology to a friend once. It wasn't easy. The closest I came up with was that once in his liquid state, the cells exposed to the air absorb oxygen directly from the atmosphere as well as any neutrients he might require. These cells then 'swim' towards his center of mass whilst empty ones 'swim' to the surface. In a liquid state, he can be spread out over a larger surface area, thus exposing a greater number of cells to the atmosphere.

If this were the case, however, why would he sleep in a bucket as this would surely limit the surface area that he can present to the atmosphere.

Also, a more efficient system would have the external cells pass the materials they collect onto the internal ones and then refill themselves again, (like a bucket brigade) infact, one would expect this to happen since osmosis is a passive process and any such 'swimming' would likely be an energy-consuming active process ! But if this were the case, he'd be able to regenerate continuously without the need to revert to a gelatinous state.

Also, it does not explain how changelings can survive in space. unless that Uberfounder that Odo found made planetfall every sixteen hours or had developed part of its anatomy into a Bussards Ramscoop

[Darth Wong]

The Founders are the most wildly inconsistent species in Star Trek by far. In one episode a Founder can seem almost invincible, and in the next episode a Founder gets killed by a few Klingon handgun shots or by getting pushed against a warp core control panel which a human could safely operate with his bare hands.

[Junghalli]

DAX
How about have something to eat?

VIRAK'KARA
The White is the only thing we
need.

Well, the Jem Hadar seem to be reptilian, so its possible that they're cold blooded. Cold blooded creatures generally don't need to eat that much, since their metabolisms are so low. Most lizards and snakes only need to eat once every couple of days IIRC.
It would also mean they'd tire very quickly and be quite vulnerable to cold though, so it isn't the way I'd design a super-soldier. It might not be a bad idea for naval personnel though, as it would reduce the amount of supplies or replicator stock the ship needs to carry (and spacecraft can be climate controlled to the toasty temperatures cold-bloods usually like).

Logic has nothing to do with the Dominion Races, or has it escaped your notice that Odo is a perpetual motion machine?

How so? Was it stated that he doesn't need to eat?

[NecronLord]

How so? Was it stated that he doesn't need to eat?

It is stated that he incapable of drinking in an episode where he sits at a table in the cafe with Garak and shapeshifts his own mug to look like he's drinking.

[Junghalli]

It is stated that he incapable of drinking in an episode where he sits at a table in the cafe with Garak and shapeshifts his own mug to look like he's drinking.

Maybe he just can't eat the same food as humans. He is an alien after all, his biochemistry is bound to be different.

[NecronLord]

He could have it replicated. If what he needs is unreplicatable, he could carry a flask. He explicity states that only by shapeshifting is he able to share the dining experience. He tried once. The results were messy.

[NecronLord]

20 INT. REPLIMAT

Garak and Odo are eating breakfast. Garak has a full
meal. Odo is sipping from a cup of coffee, which he
keeps constantly in his right hand. Throughout the
scene, Odo maintains a casual surveillance of the
Klingons on the Promenade.

GARAK
(re: the coffee)
Fascinating. So both the cup and
the liquid are merely extensions
of your body.

ODO
That's correct. And if I want to, I
can even drink the liquid,
reabsorb it, and produce new
"coffee" in the cup.

Demonstrating, Odo takes a swallow, then holds out the
cup. It's refilled.

ODO
(holds up cup)
This way I can give the illusion
that I'm sharing in the dining
experience.

GARAK
Very thoughtful.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

So riddle me this batman.
Why does a baby Jemmie REQUEST food he will not eat? "I need food." Not "I want food", but I NEED food.
And just how, without eating, does a baby get more massive? Absorbing gasses and vapours from the air?
Continuity gaff?
Brainbug?

This very episode was on Spike TV within the last few days.

http://www.greatlink.org/dcisV2.asp?url ... ndoned.asp

Bashir confirms that the child was genetically engineered, and the Doctor also discovers that the kid's blood chemistry is missing a key isogenic enzyme - without large qualities of it, the child's circulatory system would shut down. Bashir has created an temporary enzyme but he wonders why anyone would create a race with such a flaw.

He and the rest of the crew find out. The child is actually a Jem'Hadar, which runs amok through the Promenade, before it meets a Changeling - Odo. Starfleet want the Jem'Hadar shipped off to a Starbase for examination, but Odo, who believes he can control the young Founder-created warrior, persuades Sisko to release the Jem'Hadar into his care. Odo believes that the Founders have implanted the instinct within the Jem'Hadar to obey all Changelings. Sisko holds off Starfleet for now.

The Jem'Hadar is held in a brig, and he's angry - he's suffering from not having the isogenic enzyme which all Jem'Hadar seem addicted to. He calms down a little when Odo arrives, and Bashir succeeds in giving the young soldier some of the temporary enzyme. All the Jem'Hadar wants to do is fight everyone on the station apart from Odo.

O'Brien finds a supply of the original isogenic enzyme within the salvage. Since this enzyme is proving hard to replicate, Odo speculates that this is another method of ensuring the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar to the Founders, "If your soldiers are addicted to a drug which can't be replicated and only you can provide, that gives you a great deal of control over them." Bashir gives the young Jem'Hadar the isogenic enzyme, which he receives through a supply tube implanted in his neck, and the genetically engineered soldier's condition improves."

In this episode , Dr Bashir examines a baby jem, and give a diagnosis.
More to the point, the child doesn't get ANY "KW" until he is half grown.
He specificly states is is an enzyme needed to function. NOT a food source.

I am sticking with the "BS propaganda to make Jemmies scarier" theory.
I believe a medical diagnosis trumps idle chatter, or boastful statements, or outright lies. Any of which are more probable than the "they don't eat" theory.
BUT, if Odo can do it, what the fuck over? Maybe they get callories from the "crack in the event horizon". Or the crack the writers were smoking.

The saddest part is that we can both be right, depending on which episode you want to believe.
This is what happens when you let bums write scripts for sandwitches.

This isn't the first time ST has done this either. Bastards.

[Junghalli]

He could have it replicated. If what he needs is unreplicatable, he could carry a flask. He explicity states that only by shapeshifting is he able to share the dining experience.

Maybe he eats something with high amounts of ammonia and hydrogen sulfide in it.
Or, more likely, a Founder is a protoplasmic lifeform like a bacterium, right? So maybe they feed by engulfing their food in the same way amoebas do. Their natural feeding method is to crawl all over their meals and digest them, something that might be problematic in a public space. Hell, supposedly their natural state is a big sea of glop on their planet's surface, maybe they take nutrients from the ground.

He tried once. The results were messy.

Mmm, it might help us narrow down the theories if I knew exactly what happened.