Why don't all missionaries just fucking die?

[Perinquus]

Let's settle this question of evidence, shall we? I know this will not convince Terr Fangbite and Darth Servo. I doubt anything could. But the stated position of the Smithsonian Institution is found in a letter they have found it necessary to prepare, because every year they have Mormons writing them to find out in what ways the Book of Mormon is assisting them with their research. No shit. A lot of Mormons really think that the Smithsonian, and other institutions find the BoM a useful guide in directing them where to look for new finds. The Smithsonian, however, has become irritated by these ignoramuses and has prepared the following letter, which they now send out to such inquiries:

Information from the
National Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian Institution Washington, D.C. 20560

Your recent inquiry concerning the Smithsonian Institution's alleged use of the Book of Mormon as a scientific guide has been received in the Smithsonians Department of Anthropology.

The Book of Mormon is a religious document and not a scientific guide. The Smithsonian Institution has never used it in archaeological research and any information that you have received to the contrary is incorrect. Accurate information about the Smithsonians position is contained in the enclosed Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon, which was prepared to respond to the numerous inquiries that the Smithsonian receives on this topic.

Because the Smithsonian regards the unauthorized use of its name to disseminate inaccurate information as unlawful, we would appreciate your assistance in providing us with the names of any individuals who are misusing the Smithsonians name. Please address any correspondence to:

Public Information Officer
Department of Anthropology
National Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian Institution, MRC 112
Washington, DC 20560


Prepared by
THE DEPARTMENT OF ANTHROPOLOGY
SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION
STATEMENT REGARDING THE BOOK OF MORMON

1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archaeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World--probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age--in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen, who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around 1000 A.D. and then settled in Greenland. There is no evidence to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.

4. None of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre- Columbian times. This is one of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific premise that contacts with Old World civilizations, if they occurred, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, or camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, bat all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time the early big game hunters traveled across the Americas.)

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteroic iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre- Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that even such contacts occurred with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asia and the Near East.

7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt.

8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.

9. There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution

Smithsonian letter

[Guardsman Bass]

Black people turning white within a 13 year period is magical by any definition.

So... Michael Jackson is a Nephite now?

Well, he could certainly pass for a Mormon parent in my opinion. Except for the Jesus Juice.

Now imagine a vast population of Michael Jacksons, praying to God, and imagine their skin suddenly turning white. Ta-da, magic!

As for my main point, the thing both Terr and Servo fail to understand is the idea of Convergence of Evidence, meaning that when an idea is scientifically true, you can usually find evidence from different areas that support it, particularly if it is a vast fact like Evolution. For example, in the evolutionary support, we have biology, virusology, fossil records, genetics, direct observation, and so forth. In other words, evidence from different areas, but it fits together, and serves as an even greater proof for Evolution.

The Book of Mormon, however, does not have convergence of evidence. As you have probably noticed, Darth Servo and I have been arguing about the supposed "evidence" that Joseph Smith actually did have a set of plates, and had visions. But even if I had no historical evidence in the form of letters, records, etc, it wouldn't mean shit, since there is no genetic and archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. As someone mentioned above, an unproven anecdote does not a truth make.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Have you not been reading this thread? A lack of evidence does not mean a total lack of evidence (which is what you guys are insisiting). I could have evidence which points to a murderer, but not enough to convict him. Does that mean there is no evidence against him?

In this analogy of yours, all you have as "evidence" against the murderer is a book saying that he killed hundreds of people all across the country using thousands of stainless-steel throwing knives- and the supposed crime scenes spoken of in your book is devoid of bodies, throwing knives, and indeed any signs of anything like what you are describing ever occurring.

Slightly corrected to reflect the scale of the claim.

[Surlethe]

Ladies and gentlemen, the moron -- sorry, I mean Mormon -- known as Terr Fangbite has struck again. Let's take a look at this and see if we can make anything out of his incoherent babbling.

Have you not been reading the thread? This point has been addressed multiple times. Lacking evidence is evidence of lacking.

Have you not been reading this thread? A lack of evidence does not mean a total lack of evidence (which is what you guys are insisiting). I could have evidence which points to a murderer, but not enough to convict him. Does that mean there is no evidence against him?

Now, ladies and gentlemen, what is this? It looks like this is a serious case of false analogy. Evidently, Terr doesn't know the difference between evidence required to get a jury conviction, and scientific evidence. He is also, unfortunately, ignoring the fact that there is no evidence. At all.

Satisfied now?

No, because it states what I have already given in. This is magically changing to dark skin, not dark to light. Do you guys even read?

Here, Terr is wilfully ignoring a previous post quoting his own Book of Mormon. Let's take a look at it:

[5:21] And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

[5:22] And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. (emphasis mine)

It looks like changing someone's skin to black is a punishment, and if they repent, it gets changed back. Uh-oh, is Terr Fangbite ignoring evidence? Furthermore, even more explicit evidence was provided by Sean Howard after Terr posted his ill-conceived response. It seems probable Terr will ignore that, too; after all, in the face of all historical evidence previously demonstrated in this thread,

Joseph Smith was human. Had it occurred to you that maybe he was a liar?

Yes. But I have decided this wasn't the case.

Scarecrow (or should I say strawman?).

When you have evidence which could point to the BoM being true and keep insisting there is totally no evidence, I think my point comes to light. It is not a strawman, it is your position.

This looks like a delicious red herring. Terr was blatantly lying about the critics' position, and when I call him on it, he suddenly turns around and evades it entirely by throwing out bullshit. Let's take a look at his rebuttal, in syllogystic form: "If you have evidence and you keep insisting there is no evidence at all, then your position is one of looking for evidence of a carbon copy of Hebraic civilization." Make sense to you? Me neither.

millions of iron-using horse-riding <snip>

Congradsulations. You've show that there is steel and horses. Now prove this bull millions of iron-using horse riding people.

Someone else has replied to this.

Congradsulations. You've show that there is steel and horses. Now prove this bull millions of iron-using horse riding people.

Wow, what bullfuckery.

And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land

But let me guess, there still remained few enough of them for no (pardon, little) evidence to remain, less than the Vikings, right?

Yep, ladies and gentlemen, that was Terr Fangbite, ignoring the evidence once again, and getting called on it by Morilore.

They can't prove the BoM

Nor am I trying. I know I can't prove it, what I am trying to disprove are the bull claims of "total lack of evidence" and the black men "magically" turning to white when they turn good.

Well, it looks like Terr Fangbite is still ignoring the evidence. This looks like a very severe case of "Wall of Ignorance", as shown below:

Wow, I'm the example of a teacher now. One question though. Have you decided to ignore my challenge to show the magically transforming black into white or have you realized this statement is wrong?

The evidence had been presented, ladies and gentlemen, aaaannd...Terr Fangbite is still ignoring it. Surprised at all?

Thanks for trying to defend me and Servio, but Wong is as relgiously (pardon the phrase) against religion as I am for it. No one can prove to him religion is worthwhile, and no one can prove to me that my church is a bunch of "fucktards". Both of us are going to blow until someone walks away muttering what an idiot the other is. This time it isn't going to be me.

So, with Terr Fangbite's closing statement, ladies and gentlemen, it appears he intends to continue the broken record debating technique until the debate ends. But

Your stubborn "broken record" behaviour is not a triumph; it is merely evidence of your absolute lack of worth.

This is ridiculous; when ALL OF THE FUCKING ARCHAEOLOGICAL AND GENETIC EVIDENCE SAYS OTHERWISE, only an idiot would continue to insist that something is true. Moreover, you have utterly failed to explain the lack of genetic evidence, the lack of archaeological evidence, etc. When faced with the fact that your only so-called evidence is easily explained through far, far simpler means than a technically advanced continent-spanning civilization which magically vanished without a trace, you simply ignore it.

Address it now, fucktard. I have no patience for people who ignore arguments they can't handle.

Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like the owner of this board has called Terr Fangbite on the dishonest debating technique! Will Terr Fangbite continue to use it, stubbornly insisting that his pigfucking blindness of the evidence is actually legitimate? Or will he be handed his ass in defeat by the rationalists on this board? Only time will tell (and if you seriously believe it's actually up in the air, you're as far gone as Terr and Servo), so stay tuned to this thread for:


=========================================================
Why Won't All Missionaries Fucking Die?
THE DEBATE!!!
=========================================================

[Guardsman Bass]

I like that Slogan at the bottom of your post, Surlethe. You ought to sig it, at least for now.

[Surlethe]

I like that Slogan at the bottom of your post, Surlethe. You ought to sig it, at least for now.

Thanks!

[Sean Howard]

Black people turning white within a 13 year period is magical by any definition.

So... Michael Jackson is a Nephite now?

Well, he could certainly pass for a Mormon parent in my opinion. Except for the Jesus Juice.

HAHA! Touche!

He is of that terrible lost tribe of Mormons, the Pedophites, who are like unto the dreaded Dermatophites.

[Guardsman Bass]

Well, this debate certainly seems over. Viva La Victory!

[Coyote]

" MY FRIEND said id love this board but becareful theire heavly into "Proof" stuff." -Assassin X, showing how idiots can unintentionally produce irony.

Says it all.

[Guardsman Bass]

" MY FRIEND said id love this board but becareful theire heavly into "Proof" stuff." -Assassin X, showing how idiots can unintentionally produce irony.

Says it all.

Getting that sig was like a revelation to me. Until I saw Assassin X actually post that, although I had read Mike's horror stories in the "Hate Mail" on his website, I don't think I really believed anybody post anything THAT stupid. I mean, even fundies put out and understand some notion of 'proof', even if it is bullshit. But for somewhat to post what Assassin X did . ..

[Morilore]

The debate may be over, but the story isn't. I eargerly await the resolution to DW's challenge...

[Guardsman Bass]

EDIT: " . . . anybody would . .. ."

[Terr Fangbite]

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

[DPDarkPrimus]

My points ignored because they are irrelevent, or completely, utterly decimated.

Fixed.

[Darth Wong]

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

That's not an answer, fucktard. ADDRESS THE FUCKING POINT, you worthless piece of crusty ass-hair. Don't pull this "walk away while making snide and totally false remarks" bullshit.

You never made a single goddamned point worth the disk space you wasted on my server, asshole.

[Morilore]

Terr, you do realize you're toying with the wrong end of the banstick, right? I were you, I would quickly and effusively concede.

[Nephtys]

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

I wonder if the Book of Mormon has a section on sore losers. Quite frankly, that was a beat down, using your own words to do it with too. Ouch indeed! Ouch indeed.

[Surlethe]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back! Terr Fuckbutt -- err, Fangbite -- has again spoken:

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

Is this a concession, or is it not? Let's analyze it:

I hereby am backing out.

What does this mean? Apparently, ladies and gentlemen, Terr is not going to participate in this "debate" any more. But is this a concession? Doesn't look like it! Rather, it looks like he's not going to give the rationalists the satisfaction of knowing he is aware they have won. In fact, he might even think he is still winning!

Let's continue with the second part of his statement:

My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

Well! This, ladies and gentlemen, is a shitpackage in two parts! Package #1: "My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks)". What a piece of horsefuckery! It looks like a combination strawman and evasion: no one on this board claimed every single mormon is a dumbfuck; aaand... he completely drops the "Book of Mormon is a reliable source" line of argument. Guess he doesn't have the guts to bring it back up after the thorough evisceration of every argument he has made on that topic, eh?

Package #2: "...or disputed." Is this more dishonest oral shit, or what? The thread stands in mute testimony: have his arguments merely been disputed? Or have they been disputed, annihilated, eviscerated, emasculated, filleted alive, had their blood smeared on the walls, guts strewn about the room, and then the remains incinerated in the fires of logic? You decide, ladies and gentlemen. It ought to be evident, considering one party is celebrating now, and one party is attempting to quietly duck out the back door under cover of darkness.

Unfortunately for him, Terr's ballless attempt to quietly back out didn't have the intended attempt. The illustrious Darth Wong noticed, and replied:

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

That's not an answer, fucktard. ADDRESS THE FUCKING POINT, you worthless piece of crusty ass-hair. Don't pull this "walk away while making snide and totally false remarks" bullshit.

You never made a single goddamned point worth the disk space you wasted on my server, asshole.

Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like Darth Wong is getting angry. Another bluff called. Darth Wong has called Terr Fangbite's on his imbecilic behavior; how will Terr respond?

Several other commentators have also spoken. Within 20 minutes of Terr's backwards-assed retreat,

My points ignored because they are irrelevent, or completely, utterly decimated.

Fixed.

Terr, you do realize you're toying with the wrong end of the banstick, right? I were you, I would quickly and effusively concede.

And, there was celebration among the ranks of the rationalists, as

I hereby am backing out. My points ignored (regarding why Mormons are not all dumbfucks), or disputed.

I wonder if the Book of Mormon has a section on sore losers. Quite frankly, that was a beat down, using your own words to do it with too. Ouch indeed! Ouch indeed.

and

Well, this debate certainly seems over. Viva La Victory!

But in response to that,

The debate may be over, but the story isn't. I eargerly await the resolution to DW's challenge...

What will happen, ladies and gentlemen? A simple-minded horseass-fucking Mormon moron has been defeated in debate, but doesn't have the balls to admit it. Will he finally realize the error of his ways? Or will he continue bitchy muttering about "ignored points" and "disputed...", further incurring the wrath of this board's owner and creator? The blood is in the water; the sharks are circling.

Meanwhile, Darth Servo seems oddly quiet....

Stay tuned for the resolution of this drama, in...

=========================================================
Why Won't All Missionaries Fucking Die?
THE DEBATE!!!
=========================================================

[Guardsman Bass]

Jesus, Surlethe. That was pretty funny.

Anyways, I noticed Servo hasn't responded yet in two days. I'll give him until monday to respond, then consider having accepted his concession.

Good job on the archaeological arguments, guys. I just wish I could have been as effective as Perin in the "Visions and Testimonies" department.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Surlethe, you should be a TV show host.

Anyway, I thought the main purpose of this thread was to help Superman convince his friend (LL?) not to join the cult of LDS. So, Superman, how did it go?

[Surlethe]

Thanks

[Zero]

My guess is, he walks away for now, goes to some other mormon with his issues, and either gets religion beaten back into him, or perhaps continues on with his doubts until he makes a wise decision and leaves it behind. Typically, a change in faith takes a bit of time. Proving a faith wrong has limited immediate effects, but in the future, his doubts may actually lead him down the path of truth, a path his God surely believes is evil.

In essence... YAY FOR TRUTH!

[Guardsman Bass]

Surlethe, you should be a TV show host.

Anyway, I thought the main purpose of this thread was to help Superman convince his friend (LL?) not to join the cult of LDS. So, Superman, how did it go?

Yeah, we kind of got off track when Terr made his little bullshit "that page has as much credibility as fundie science" remark. Oh well, it was fun!

Especially, since I am an Ex-Mormon living in possibly one of the most Mormon communities in the world (Sandy, Utah has a 90% Mormon Membership), arguing someone into the ground about religion is a rare thing. Thank God for dumbasses, and They-Who-Can-Not-Hold-Their-Tongue!

[Guardsman Bass]

My guess is, he walks away for now, goes to some other mormon with his issues, and either gets religion beaten back into him, or perhaps continues on with his doubts until he makes a wise decision and leaves it behind. Typically, a change in faith takes a bit of time. Proving a faith wrong has limited immediate effects, but in the future, his doubts may actually lead him down the path of truth, a path his God surely believes is evil.

In essence... YAY FOR TRUTH!

That's assuming he believes he was beaten, and not that we are all a bunch of Rock-Headed Mindless Atheist Bitches.

[Zero]

No, for now, he will believe that we're the ones at fault. The important thing is, deep down, he's questioning. That's why we'll win eventually... because we're right.