Did Luke win because he wasn't a Jedi?

[Thirdfain]

Allow me to explain the question, this is in response to the fan review of ROTS, where it''s mentioned that Anakin had no friends, and this is why he was so open to Palpatine.

Luke never went through the Jedi academy. He started his training 6+ years too old for the curriculum the Old Republic Jedi used. He wasn't brought up on Force bullshit and platitudes about caring for nothing but that old religion. Rather, he was raised a hard-working farm hand, used to toil and practical concerns. His training as a Jedi didn't take place in some padded temple far away from reality. Rather, he spent the time as a soldier in the Rebellion, and aparently one of some repute. He learned the Jedi arts only after years fighting a very real, in-your-face war. He went up against Palpatine and Vader not as some coddled monk, but as a hardened soldier with a cause he cared about- and, as the author of the ROTS review pointed out, with people he cared about at stake.

I've heard it said by my friend Frigidmagi, a former Marine, that a good deal of what makes a modern group of soldiers work is their deep-seated interest in protecting their buddies- the buys who they rely on, and vice versa. By having such buddies he relied upon, I think Luke was propelled with far greaterr verve than the Old Republic Jedi, who were basically fighting for their religious indoctrination.

Thoughts?

[Darksider]

Luke's bond with his friends and the Rebellion, and the cause that he fought for are probably what made him turn down Vader's offer to rule the galaxy by his side, and later reject the Emperor's call to the dark side.

Luke "Won" in the end of ROTJ because he convinced his father to return to the light.

Without Vader's change of heart, Luke would be quite dead, and the Rebellion may have lost the battle of Endor.

[Crazedwraith]

Luke's bond with his friends and the Rebellion, and the cause that he fought for are probably what made him turn down Vader's offer to rule the galaxy by his side, and later reject the Emperor's call to the dark side.

Luke "Won" in the end of ROTJ because he convinced his father to return to the light.

Without Vader's change of heart, Luke would be quite dead, and the Rebellion may have lost the battle of Endor.

By the time Vader turned back. Wedge and co were all ready inside the DSII the rebels had won, its was just a matter of whether Luke made it out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

By the time Vader turned back. Wedge and co were all ready inside the DSII the rebels had won, its was just a matter of whether Luke made it out.

If Luke didn't make it, Vader and Palpatine, or at least Palpatine, would've survived. If that happened, the Alliance would have failed, and the Empire would have survived.

[Darksider]

By the time Vader turned back. Wedge and co were all ready inside the DSII the rebels had won, its was just a matter of whether Luke made it out.

????

Been a while since I watched ROTJ.

I thought they were just headind for the DSII, and if the Emperor survived he might be able to pull some battle meditation juju and re-coordinate the Imperial Fleet.

Or forsee his own demise and get the hell of the station.

[Durandal]

Since he was 10, Anakin was told that he was oh-so-special, the Chosen One or whatever. And all the people who were filling his head with this garbage ever gave him was mistrust and fear. Obi-Wan told him he couldn't be with Padmé "just because ... or something." Instead of educating him, all the Jedi did was tell him to "search his feelings" and everything would come to him.

Palpatine actually showed an interest in Anakin's life and ambition. He nurtured it toward his own ends because there were no other real influences in Anakin's life to make him aware that he was being played like a fiddle.

[Durandal]

By the time Vader turned back. Wedge and co were all ready inside the DSII the rebels had won, its was just a matter of whether Luke made it out.

????

Been a while since I watched ROTJ.

I thought they were just headind for the DSII, and if the Emperor survived he might be able to pull some battle meditation juju and re-coordinate the Imperial Fleet.

Or forsee his own demise and get the hell of the station.

By the time Palpatine started frying Luke, the shield was down, and Rebel morale had skyrocketed. When Palpatine exploded or whatever, Lando was about 10 seconds away from destroying the Death Star's main reactor. The Death Star was going down either way, and it would've been a significant blow to the Empire even if the Emperor had managed to sneak out.

[Illuminatus Primus]

But they would've still basically lost if Palpatine had survived. Palpatine was the Empire.

[The Guid]

Perhaps if Palpatine had survived he would have at least made sure that the Imperial Fleet was not caught in the blast of the Second Death Star which is what happens IIRC according to some EU because of his oh so powerful stabalising and disciplining influence.

[Trytostaydead]

Harry Knowles actually put it best in his review of ROTS. He rants against the Jedi about how they try to teach you to be detached and distant in the pursuit of justice and all that crap and you see a little bit of that in what Yoda teaches Luke on Dagobah and tells him not to rush off to save his friends.

But it could be that the Jedi were both right and wrong. That fear of loss COULD lead to the darkside if you try to control everything, where the lure of power to control is too tempting, even if it's in a noble cause. But also it's that same cherishment of friends is what made Luke strong contrary to the Emperor's belief.

[dworkin]

Tapping into your emotions for force power is a darkside thing. The Sith for example feed it their rage and hate but a force user wielding the force 'inspired' by love is also using darkside power.

Luke and Obi-Wan both do this in ROTJ and TPM respectivly. But they're both paragons of the Jedi. The rules against using emotions and exposing yourself to emotions probably resulted from millenia of fuck-ups as less able Jedi succumbed. The rules were tightened little by little until you have the situation in the prequels where emotions=straight to the dark side and no-one questions the established wisdom.

[Stofsk]

Tapping into your emotions for force power is a darkside thing. The Sith for example feed it their rage and hate but a force user wielding the force 'inspired' by love is also using darkside power.

Uh... says who?

Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

[Crown]

Tapping into your emotions for force power is a darkside thing. The Sith for example feed it their rage and hate but a force user wielding the force 'inspired' by love is also using darkside power.

Uh... says who?

Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

I think he's getting it from Anakin in AotC (to posses is forbiden, etc) in regards to Padme's question about Jedi being forbidden to love.

[NecronLord]

If Luke didn't make it, Vader and Palpatine, or at least Palpatine, would've survived. If that happened, the Alliance would have failed, and the Empire would have survived.

And the Battle of Endor would still have been a rebel victory.

[HemlockGrey]

And the Battle of Endor would still have been a rebel victory.

Not if the Imperial fleet regrouped and counterattacked. The Rebel fleet at Endor was their only real battlegroup and if it had been destroyed or even seriously damaged the Alliance would be crippled beyond repair. The destruction of the Death Star coupled with a significant mauling of the Rebel fleet would still have been a strategic victory for the Empire.

[Petrosjko]

Tapping into your emotions for force power is a darkside thing. The Sith for example feed it their rage and hate but a force user wielding the force 'inspired' by love is also using darkside power.

Uh... says who?

Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

Attachment is what the PT Jedi were on about. The concept being that holding on to people eventually would lead to dark emotions.

[Winston Blake]

Tapping into your emotions for force power is a darkside thing. The Sith for example feed it their rage and hate but a force user wielding the force 'inspired' by love is also using darkside power.

Uh... says who?
Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

Attachment is what the PT Jedi were on about. The concept being that holding on to people eventually would lead to dark emotions.

Maybe the whole 'bringing balance to the Force' chosen-one thing wasn't about the numbers of Force practitioners but the idea that one day there would be a Jedi who was capable of tapping into his emotions without being overwhelmed by them and turning evil.

Kinda like a Kwisatz Haderach-style figure who could use both the 'Dark' Side (powerful emotions giving boundless motivation/determination) and the Light Side (perfect self-control and discipline giving finely honed skills).

Perhaps Anakin was 'supposed to be' the first of these ubermensch Jedi, but history took a few detours and Luke's becoming a Jedi on DSII regardless of his emotional attachment to his friends made him the first Super-ForceUser.

Although this kinda goes with the 'numbers of practitioners' thing since after ROTJ all the Jedi are dead and all the Sith (Vader/Palpy) are destroyed so Luke's left as the unification of Light and Dark.

[dworkin]

Uh... says who?

Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

Umm...The movies? A Jedi is supposed to be calm, serene, at peace, blah, blah, blah.

Tapping into your emotions allows a force user to wield a lot more power, eg Obi-Wan in TPM is able to face Maul alone, Luke in ROTJ bitchslaps Vader when prior to losing his cool he was the one in trouble. Anakin kills an entire village of hardened bad-asses (and the kiddies).The Sith incidently do it all he time and focus on the negative emotions because they're easier to become in a stress situation.

So, tapping into your emotions = dark.
Cool calm detached = light.

And Anakin was worried about his mother why? Because he loved her.
And that leads to darkness according to high-fuckwit Yoda.

[Alyeska]

Had Vader not turned and Luke had died, I seriously doubt Vader and the Emperor would have survived. Lando and Wedge entered the DS2 moments AFTER the Emperor was killed. During their run into the reactor is when Luke took Anakin and tried dragging him out. The Emperor and Vader would only know to run when they are informed just how bad things were going, and they would have to make a run for the hanger as quickly as they could. Thing is Luke was already halfway to the hangers when the reactor was blown and he barely had enough time to escape from that point.

No, even had Vader not turned, Vader and the Emperor were very much dead.

[Stofsk]

Uh... says who?

Fear, aggression, anger, hatred. That's what Yoda says. Not love, compassion, serenity.

Umm...The movies?

I don't think so.

At the risk of sounding philosophical: do you think calmness is an emotion? Or serenity? Feeling at peace? Feeling - I presume - happy?

A Jedi is supposed to be calm, serene, at peace, blah, blah, blah.

And must feel the force. Meaning he can't be emotionless. And if he were emotionless, if he were detached, that wouldn't be better than a Sith who was a slave to his rage and fear. It's obvious that certain emotions lead down to the Darkside. It's not obvious that ALL emotions lead down to that.

Tapping into your emotions allows a force user to wield a lot more power, eg Obi-Wan in TPM is able to face Maul alone,

And almost die because he lost co-ordination.

Anakin 'tapped into his emotions' for Dooky and lost an arm. No dice.

Luke in ROTJ bitchslaps Vader when prior to losing his cool he was the one in trouble.

He was never in trouble. He parried each and every one of Vader's thrusts and cuts, and chose to avoid a confrontation. He stayed reasonable. Don't misrepresent the films.

He bitchslapped Vader when the latter threatened to turn his sister, whom he loved. He fought hardest to protect that which he loved, and because he loved his father despite all he had done, he refrained from chopping him in love. And Vader, or ANakin's love, for his son is what culminated in the entire Empire's downfall.

So what, Luke wasn't a Jedi because he felt love?

Anakin kills an entire village of hardened bad-asses (and the kiddies).

Yes. And they deserved it.

The Sith incidently do it all he time and focus on the negative emotions because they're easier to become in a stress situation.

Yes, and we see the Jedi fail to defeat Sith unless they fight on their own initiative. I think it's clear from the films that the Jedi have lost their way. Hence the theme of 'bringing balance to the force' which is kind of like housekeeping.

So, tapping into your emotions = dark.
Cool calm detached = light.

Both are extremes, and both are bad. We see Luke walk the middleroad, because in a sense he learned the folly of both sides.

And Anakin was worried about his mother why? Because he loved her.

And that leads to darkness according to high-fuckwit Yoda.

I will always maintain that the retarded Jedi 'no attachments' clause allowed that clusterfuck to happen. And if not for the jedi and their useless theology, Anakin would have visited his mum much sooner and been able to do something for her.

[NecronLord]

Had Vader not turned and Luke had died, I seriously doubt Vader and the Emperor would have survived. Lando and Wedge entered the DS2 moments AFTER the Emperor was killed. During their run into the reactor is when Luke took Anakin and tried dragging him out. The Emperor and Vader would only know to run when they are informed just how bad things were going, and they would have to make a run for the hanger as quickly as they could. Thing is Luke was already halfway to the hangers when the reactor was blown and he barely had enough time to escape from that point.

No, even had Vader not turned, Vader and the Emperor were very much dead.

According to the map of the throne room, there were escape pods in that little sitting room the Imperial Guards were cooling their heels in.

[Vympel]

Had Vader not turned and Luke had died, I seriously doubt Vader and the Emperor would have survived. Lando and Wedge entered the DS2 moments AFTER the Emperor was killed.

So what? Luke's instinct was to escape as well, he certainly had no information that the shield was lost and fighters were about to enter the reactor. The Emperor could probably have felt the problem the moment he finished killing Luke (he was using low-powered lightning on him, notice how only Vader's bones glow from the power of it).

During their run into the reactor is when Luke took Anakin and tried dragging him out. The Emperor and Vader would only know to run when they are informed just how bad things were going, and they would have to make a run for the hanger as quickly as they could. Thing is Luke was already halfway to the hangers when the reactor was blown and he barely had enough time to escape from that point.

You forget that Luke was hulking around an incapacitated Anakin Skywalker, who is huge and weighs a lot. Vader and Sidious could leave at their own will.

No, even had Vader not turned, Vader and the Emperor were very much dead.

See above. Without Luke, destroying the Death Star II would've been exactly like destroying the first- a setback, but the Emperor would still live.

[Trytostaydead]

Didn't Thrawn also propose a theory on this, "last second incompetance" by the Tie pilots due to the Emperor having died and he was no enhancing his troops coordination and performances? "Yes you fought on. Like cadets!"

And it wasn't Rebel skill that took out the first Death Star either. It was a boy named Luke Skywalker, and the force was with him.

[Vympel]

Didn't Thrawn also propose a theory on this, "last second incompetance" by the Tie pilots due to the Emperor having died and he was no enhancing his troops coordination and performances? "Yes you fought on. Like cadets!"

And it wasn't Rebel skill that took out the first Death Star either. It was a boy named Luke Skywalker, and the force was with him.

It was fact, not just theory. It's stated flat-out, in the RotJ novelization- the Emperor's death destroyed Imperial fighting cohesiveness in that battle.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Had Vader not turned and Luke had died, I seriously doubt Vader and the Emperor would have survived. Lando and Wedge entered the DS2 moments AFTER the Emperor was killed. During their run into the reactor is when Luke took Anakin and tried dragging him out. The Emperor and Vader would only know to run when they are informed just how bad things were going, and they would have to make a run for the hanger as quickly as they could. Thing is Luke was already halfway to the hangers when the reactor was blown and he barely had enough time to escape from that point.

No, even had Vader not turned, Vader and the Emperor were very much dead.

And Luke had an open comlink channel to it? Jerrjerrod knew what was happening, and both Vader and Palpatine have the Force. If Luke could know to escape, than so should they, more so, even, having contact with the battle station's command.