Dream Interpretation?

[That NOS Guy]

Is there any hard science behind this or is it just bullshit? I'm rather curious about it.

[General Zod]

it's largely bullshit. much like most of freudian psychology.

[sparrowtm]

Depends. There are indeed various scientifical studies going on about the subject (if interested, I can link some of them) - but then, as always, there are the everything-can-be-explained-by-esoteric-nonsense people trying to interprete dreams for people with stupid pseudo-scientific methods.

Personally, I do think dreams are able to teach you at least something about yourself if interpreted by a professional - but since we're still at the beginning of understanding deeper brain functions, never take a single interpretation as given.

[General Zod]

Depends. There are indeed various scientifical studies going on about the subject (if interested, I can link some of them) - but then, as always, there are the everything-can-be-explained-by-esoteric-nonsense people trying to interprete dreams for people with stupid pseudo-scientific methods.

Personally, I do think dreams are able to teach you at least something about yourself if interpreted by a professional - but since we're still at the beginning of understanding deeper brain functions, never take a single interpretation as given.

give me objective resources and methods for interpreting dreams, then you can begin to call it valid.

[sparrowtm]

http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/mazz.htm as an example. I read that article when I was interested in learning more about dreams myself, and found it to be very informative - debatable indeed, but based on theory, experimentation and conclusion.

[Stravo]

Oh I think there's something to it. Why do writers use dreams as a way of communicating something symbollically to the audience? Because dreams are some of the rawest most stripped down archetypes that we encounter in our lives. I have always believed that dreams are our mind's way of dealing with certain issues and we get to see how our mind is working, through symbols and allegory. I think its fascinating and am a firm believer that many times dreams mean something. Your mind is trying to tell you something. We just have to learn what the symbolism means.

[Lord Zentei]

It's bullshit. The fact that many psychologists use it means precisely dick about it's validity. By it's very nature dream interpretation is highly descriptive and imprecise. Moreover, the idea that "repressed memory" can be recovered in such ways has never been substanciated, and in fact it has been shown that repressed memory recovery attempts can create false memories.

I for one place no trust at all in it.

[Civil War Man]

Dreams are mostly a convenient plot device for our lives. It's basically the brain trying to entertain itself while the rest of the body is busy, either when it is sleeping or, in the case of near-death experiences, trying to not die (I consider NDE's to be the body going, "Holy shit! I'm dying!" and the brain responding with, "I'm not listening! LALALALALA!")

I once had a dream where I fell off a really tall cliff, but survived the impact with the ground with no serious injury. What does it mean? Probably that I've been watching too many Wile E. Coyote cartoons.

[General Zod]

Dreams are mostly a convenient plot device for our lives. It's basically the brain trying to entertain itself while the rest of the body is busy, either when it is sleeping or, in the case of near-death experiences, trying to not die (I consider NDE's to be the body going, "Holy shit! I'm dying!" and the brain responding with, "I'm not listening! LALALALALA!")

I once had a dream where I fell off a really tall cliff, but survived the impact with the ground with no serious injury. What does it mean? Probably that I've been watching too many Wile E. Coyote cartoons.

i like a take on dreams i remember reading (i think) in the sandman once. (not entirely sure if it was the sandman, but anyway. . .) basically it said that dreams are the brain's way of taking a mental dump. if you don't dream or don't dream much, you're basically mentally constipated.

[That NOS Guy]

i like a take on dreams i remember reading (i think) in the sandman once. (not entirely sure if it was the sandman, but anyway. . .) basically it said that dreams are the brain's way of taking a mental dump. if you don't dream or don't dream much, you're basically mentally constipated.

Wonderful, now I have to go find some sort of mental laxative. Hmmm, I never did read the Da Vinci Code.

[Junghalli]

I think the current neurological explanation for dreaming is that during REM sleep a lot of the brain neurons are firing randomly and the dream is you conscious mind's attempt to make sense of what it percieves as really weird sensory input resulting from that. Or something like that. In which case yeah, I guess if your brain is randomly sifting through fragments of memories and fantasies while your dreaming the stuff that bubbles up could say something about you.
I sort of disagree with Darth Zhod's theory, as I have very few dreams and I'm not frustrated emotionally or anything like that (I think ). Or maybe I have them and just don't remember them. I notice in those dreams I do remember I'm usually semi-conscious of it not being real, and either want it to end if it's a bad dream or wish it would stay if it's a good one.

[General Zod]

I think the current neurological explanation for dreaming is that during REM sleep a lot of the brain neurons are firing randomly and the dream is you conscious mind's attempt to make sense of what it percieves as really weird sensory input resulting from that. Or something like that. In which case yeah, I guess if your brain is randomly sifting through fragments of memories and fantasies while your dreaming the stuff that bubbles up could say something about you.
I sort of disagree with Darth Zhod's theory, as I have very few dreams and I'm not frustrated emotionally or anything like that (I think ). Or maybe I have them and just don't remember them. I notice in those dreams I do remember I'm usually semi-conscious of it not being real, and either want it to end if it's a bad dream or wish it would stay if it's a good one.

you don't neceessarily have to be emotionally frustrated to be mentally constpiated. it could simply be the difficulty of hammering out new ideas or having trouble maintaining clear streams of thought, as an example. course it was mostly a joke more than anything else.

[Junghalli]

you don't neceessarily have to be emotionally frustrated to be mentally constpiated. it could simply be the difficulty of hammering out new ideas or having trouble maintaining clear streams of thought, as an example.

Which I know I don't have. Of course, it's possible I just don't remember my dreams. Supposedly you only remember a small fraction of your dreams.
Given that I'm an aspiring horror writer if the dreams as random memories and fantasies thing is true that may be just as well.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I got to write this down to save recomposing it like this.

Dreams, and what they mean.

Your brain is a pattern making machine. You sort out your sensory data and produce a pattern.
But what it there IS no pattern to the data? (Clouds, complete darkness, ect) Well your brain manufactures a pattern. Hence, what you see in clouds.
Now push your index fingertips onto the outer corners of each CLOSED eyelid with slowly increasing pressure. You should see bright lights are swiling patterns. Your brain is making a pattern where there isn't one. I see geometric figures, and twisting wavy lines.

Now on to dreams.

When you sleep, your brain shuts off most motor controle. This keeps you from thrashing about as you play act your dream.
Your brain also shuts down most sensory input, to allow you to sleep.
For a brief time, you are blind and mostly deaf. When you dream, your brain is making a pattern where there is none.

Now the tricky part. Any one ever take the ink blot test? The blots are random, and you make up a pattern.
HOW do you make a pattern? It is based on BOTH creative ability and (this is the tricky part) what you were thinking about as you fell asleep.

That which is YOU, is not one single thing, but a blend, working as a team.

Your mind is split into semi autonomous sub units, (IE neural net of processors) and some of these are at odds with each other.
You are a composit being with contradictory parts, which take a "vote". I call this the "Board of Directors".
The board is a chorus of many voices, and some are NOT singing the same "song".

(This is why you can have two or more different desires at the same time. You desire to punch someone, yet don't want to go to jail. You want to piss now, but you want to wait until you open your fly in the mens room. EVERY instance of impulse controle is a semi schizoid situation. Fundies believing both science and the bible is a the same.)
MAJOIRITY RULES! but the minority will NOT be silent.
This is a good thing when your moral code is in the minority. Guilt they call it. Projected resentment. "I'd feel bad if the situation was reversed, and I made them feel bad" is the essence of guilt.

This is a useful and needed way to make brains. It also makes insanity possible when the "Chorus" has too many different songs to blend, or the "Board of directors" CAN'T reach a simple majority.
The tricky thing here, is that every "Director " speaks at the "Board meeting". Also, NO director can be silenced completly. "It" WILL be heared.

That's where the dream comes in. Every "figure" or "character" (as opposed to background) in your dream is a "Director" who WILL be heared. The still small voice within anyone?

In short, dreams are you giving parts of yourself a voice, even if you don't or won't acknowledge their very exsistance.

Play a little game. Write down your dream. (For example, Your dream is you walking down the beach, and you pick up a starfish, and throw it in the ocean. end short dream.)
Be the starfish. Now I am a starfish. Do a stream of consiousness about what it is like to be a starfish. Describe how you feel, what you do, what you want.
The same with the ocean, the sand, and anything else worth mentioning on the beach.

You will find little gems of insight popping out of your mouth. It is safer for the starfish to say these "forbidden" things than you.
Basicly, your unexpressed parts need an outlet, and dreams are that outlet.

Class dismissed.


Homework. Write down a dream as soon as you wake. (Or you will forget quickly)

Roleplay the figurse in your dream. Don't exclude inanimate object if they are a noticeable part.
Example, if your dream is you getting in a car, and running a stop sign, you must play the road, the car, the stop sign, ect...

You might be surprised about what pops out of your mouth.

[Surlethe]

That's cool... I'm going to have to do that with several really vivid dreams I've had.

[Mad]

Play a little game. Write down your dream. (For example, Your dream is you walking down the beach, and you pick up a starfish, and throw it in the ocean. end short dream.)
Be the starfish. Now I am a starfish. Do a stream of consiousness about what it is like to be a starfish. Describe how you feel, what you do, what you want.
The same with the ocean, the sand, and anything else worth mentioning on the beach.

You will find little gems of insight popping out of your mouth. It is safer for the starfish to say these "forbidden" things than you.
Basicly, your unexpressed parts need an outlet, and dreams are that outlet.

I doubt that'll work for everyone. There's more to dreams than just what appears in them. There's what happens, how it happens, and how it is presented. (Besides, my dreams have far too many objects in them to do a POV of each one. What's the point of doing a POV analysis of my backyard and everything in it when the only reason it appeared and in such vivid color is because we were talking about whether or not we dreamed in color the day before and my mind apparently wanted to prove that I do dream in color?)

Examples of relevant things:

One time, a dream started off with a scene of three people at a bar. The people interacted while the dream focused on one person. Then it reset to the beginning, and re-showed the same thing but focusing on someone else. Then it did it again, but focused on the third person instead. After that, the dream proceeded from that point. It was all very cinematic. But how do you to a POV analysis of a time loop? (Intrestingly, these loops, when they appear, usually do so at the end of my dreams, and get stuck in a loop until I wake up soon after the scene goes "correctly.")

Also in that dream, I sometimes viewed things from the perspective of a character in the dream, and other times from a third person perspective. ("I" wasn't in the dream, but instead seemed to be merely watching some kind of mystery movie.) The environment also seemed to change in that dream from taking place on a cruise ship to being on a landlocked building. Both of these things occur frequently in my dreams. However, when I'm "me" in the dream, I don't think I've ever gone third-person.

Anyway, the presentation of things, the flow of things (including locations morphing or objects changing), and what appears in the dreams are all specific to me. The dreams are that way because of the way I think

Nobody can tell me that, because an apple appeared in my dream, that some part of me feels like an apple, or that the apple symbolizes something. The apple is there because I walked by the dining room in my dream and there are usually apples in the dining room. It's that simple. Or the lightsaber appeared in the dream because it was a Star Wars-based dream. They're there because they're supposed to be there, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, normally, anyway. Maybe an apple appears somewhere else that I'd expect an apple to be. Or maybe the apple appears in a really odd place. Or a lightsaber appears in an otherwise normal dream. Or maybe the apples aren't sitting on the table when I walk by the dining room. Any of those could happen, and they could happen for any number of reasons. But I'm the only one who'd know that I ate the last apple that day, for instance, which could explain there being no apples. Or that maybe I've been really wanting to get one of those replica sabers (or maybe did get), or am just really looking forward to Episode III. Or, maybe a part of me really does feel like I'm being used as both offense and defensive by one of my friends.

The point is, any interpretation of my dream by someone else would be based on how that person views things, and thus would be what that dream would mean to him if he had dreamed it. But he didn't, I did.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Not everything on your mind is important. There are lots of tiny things nibbling at the edge of your mind at any given moment.

Of course this won't work with everyone, NO "one" therapy technique will work for everyone.
Role playing and let's pretend are very atrophied in most adults. It is part of acting "mature".
Until it come down to sex.
Then role playing has a bigger payoff, and a smaller downside.

This is also why parents get so much fun out of children if they play games on the child's level.

Also, some of what is inside you has a larger majority in the "Board of Directors" against the issue becoming "Public", or consious.
Some secrets are deeper than others, and not everything you hate/fear/deny about yourself has the same level of discomfort.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

Last semester, a friend of my dreamed that he was doing quantum mechanics homework. Just a couple days ago I was dreaming that I was doing thermodynamics. Frankly when it gets to the point where you're dreaming that you're doing homework for class, thats when you know you're close to the breaking point of sanity.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Doh!
I just reread you last scentance Mad.
You missed the point by MILES.
YOU are the one interpeting your dreams, by playacting. Playing roles like this in front of others LOWERS the chance of a "dramatic blurt" of truth, because you are on guard.

Like the chair trick.
Put out two chairs. Sit in one, and argue a point. Get up, and sit in the other chair, and argue the OPPOSITE poiunt of view. Do a good job with both sides, even the side you don't agree with. The getting up and changing chair is somehow important for switching roles, something about a literal change in perspective.
This, like dream work, is USELESS with a second party present, to judge and inhibit you.

Remeber, ALL roads lead to Rome. There are many routes to self enlightenment, and some people just don't need as much work to be well adjusted.
Tony Robbins.
Charles Manson.
Which of these two has more "issues"?

[Mad]

Doh!
I just reread you last scentance Mad.
You missed the point by MILES.
YOU are the one interpeting your dreams, by playacting.

That's what I figured. I was attempting to address both your points as well as other "dream interpretation" things at the same time. I don't think I misread you. You didn't say anything about there being other people present, and I didn't assume there would be.

Of course this won't work with everyone, NO "one" therapy technique will work for everyone.
Role playing and let's pretend are very atrophied in most adults. It is part of acting "mature".

The thing is, my dreams have other important things besides just objects. Like I said, how do you roleplay a time loop?

To focus on just the objects would miss out on a massive amount of information present in my dreams. Feelings, presentation, flow, themes, and other elements have all been major parts of my dreams, and this method of "interpretation" misses them all.

It would also lead to a lot of false information because they can appear there for no reason other than that they complete the scene. (The blue curtain, washing machine, red bricked planter, brightly-lit sidewalk, green grass, garage, etc in my dream don't have any significance. They were only there because they were all visible when standing in that same spot in real life. I could roleplay a bricked planter, but I'd be seriously missing the point of the dream if I did that.)

Thinking of another dream I've had, what does the alarm clock that will not die even though I unplug it, break open, smash its circuit board, etc signify? Let's roleplay the alarm clock and find out!

Okay, I'm sitting here, waiting, loyal. It's dark. And boring. It is now 6:29 am. La de da de do. I'd check my watch, but I am my watch. I crack me up. Well, I kind of have to, not much else to do. *sigh* Oh, 6:30! Beep! Beep! Beep! Hey, he's waking up. Heh, he looks irritated. I'm going to play a trick on him today. He pressed my button, but I'm not going to turn off. Heheheh. Beep! Beep! Beep! Oh, he unpluged me. No matter. Beep! Beep! Beep! Ow! He ripped me open! Beep! That hurt! Beep! Beep! I'm just trying to play a joke, why doesn't he understand? Beep! Agh! Now he's bashing my insides! Ow! Beep! Ow! Beep! Ow! Beep! I'm only trying to help! Beep!

Wow, so apparently I feel that my friends don't always appreciate my help. Which is true, actually. (Or maybe I'd decide that since I was the one beating on the clock, I don't like a part of myself. You mean my dream is saying that I don't think I'm perfect?) But that wouldn't be the point of the dream.

That dream occured because my alarm clock was going off in real life and thus influenced my dream into being one with an alarm clock (because that's where the sound comes from) and I of course wanted to turn the alarm clock off. When I did it in the dream, it didn't affect the real alarm clock so I still heard the sound. Therefore, nothing happened in the dream, even though I made every effort to silence it.

The reason the roleplaying interpretation "worked" was because I drew an association with the alarm clock and how I feel sometimes. But that association is no more valid than reading a horoscope and seeing associations. The horoscope said I'm happy but sometimes sad! That's so me! No. The alarm clock in the dream was no more telling me that than the the stars told the astrologer to write down the horoscope.

(I'm not really sure how I'd roleplay the bookcase the clock was on.)

It's an interesting approach to self-enlightenment as you said. I can find out things about myself I might not have thought of before, but it's no dream interpretation since it can misinterpret the dream in achieving those "truths." At least, it isn't for me. It's a far too limited and unreliable method for my dreams.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Ahh, the problems of a shrink.

It would be great if you were completely well adjusted, and at peace with your self exept that one small (or large) "problem".
Unfortunatly, there is so much going on in anyone's head at any given time, that assigning a single meaning to anything won't work.

You are a young man growing up, No? No longer a child, yet you don't feel adult in all ways.
What you are, and what you think of your self is constantly changing. The younger you are, the more rapidly life changes for you.
I advise you to look up the work of Dr. Fritz Perles.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... perls.html

The only people who need guidance through a dream sequence are those truly troubled, and in need of a pro.

The idea is simple. Have you ever seen one of the tricky pictures that is either an ugly old woman, or a pretty young one? Or the classic, is it two faces, or a candlestick?
You are unable to see both at the same time because there must be a figure, and a background.
The figure is by definition, that which you are PRESENTLY paying the most attention to. When your attention shifts, so does which item is the figure.
Think of your awareness as a periscope with a light pointing the way it sees. Everywhere you turn it, is illuminated. This does not mean the whole is well lit, only where you direct your attention.
Now think of the periscope as your consious mind. You are not aware of your breathing until you think about it. Then you are, as long as you are thinking about it!
It sound somewhat circular, until you define you consious thought as that which you are PRESENTLY aware of.
The trick here is to shine the light, (or to become aware of,) what you are doing at that moment.

Gestalt has MANY roads and awareness experiments.

Breathing exercises. Breath control and the resulant oxygen starvation is a method of excitement repression, and the cause of most fainting. (unless you are wearing a corsett or some other tight restricive garment.)

Food exercises. Food is a great metaphor for data. It must be deconstructed and assimilated to be useful. It can also be "swallowed whole" (or introjected) causing discomfort. Indigestion as a metaphor for contratictory beliefs. When properly digested, it is the excreted/projected, or vomited if too incompatable.

Just plain old chewing your food completely, and focusing your attention on the sensations can mobilise repressed disgust. The sensations will be similar to what you are doing you believe to be disgusting.
Being aware of your posture and muscle tentions will expose your Reichian armor. An other method of self controle.

If your dreams are too complex, well, one thing at a time. HINT, You will never get them all!

Once again, having a lot on your mind doesn't make you a neurotic person, just busy!

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

The one point I forgot to ention is that dream work is the most fun, and easiest of paths to enlightenment. For me at least, but I have always been a good mimic. Playing someone else comes quite easy to me.
As long as you add it to your bag of tricks, not use it as a substitute for one you already have.

[Pick]

I think some dreams can mean something. Very clearly, even.

And some are just retarded.

[Mad]

You are a young man growing up, No? No longer a child, yet you don't feel adult in all ways.
What you are, and what you think of your self is constantly changing. The younger you are, the more rapidly life changes for you.

I'm a college student who is close to graduation. Take that however you will.

The only people who need guidance through a dream sequence are those truly troubled, and in need of a pro.

This kind of guidance would seem useful for giving a mentally distrubed person something to focus on, helping the psychologist to draw out internal feelings and thoughts of the subject. The dream doesn't even have to be interpreted correctly (that is, figuring out why the dream was that way) to help the person.

The idea is simple. Have you ever seen one of the tricky pictures that is either an ugly old woman, or a pretty young one? Or the classic, is it two faces, or a candlestick?
You are unable to see both at the same time because there must be a figure, and a background.
The figure is by definition, that which you are PRESENTLY paying the most attention to. When your attention shifts, so does which item is the figure.

Likewise, the roleplaying for an object in a dream by a person can change depending on that person's situation, as he or she would have something else on their mind. A tool for psychological treatment? Sounds like it. Dream interpretation? No, not really.

If your dreams are too complex, well, one thing at a time. HINT, You will never get them all!

Oh, I know. But you haven't even addressed the points regarding non-object elements of a dream. Focusing on objects may be useful for drawing out the subconscious feelings of a person undergoing treatment, but I still wouldn't label it as "dream interpretation."

Once again, having a lot on your mind doesn't make you a neurotic person, just busy!

Nor did I imply that it did. Though it could mean things other than being busy, as well.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Mad wrote:
"Oh, I know. But you haven't even addressed the points regarding non-object elements of a dream. Focusing on objects may be useful for drawing out the subconscious feelings of a person undergoing treatment, but I still wouldn't label it as "dream interpretation." "

You are missing the paradigm of Gestalt. The figure is "That which you are focusing on at that moment." Anything in your dream worth noticing CAN be a figure, but isn't until it is PRESENTLY being focused on.
There can only be one figure at a time, but EVERYthing COULD be one if you focused on it.

It is like here and there. Here is always here, no matter where it is. (Figure, background.)
Anywhere could be here, but here is ONLY where you are, get it?