Firefly - Can I expect more?

[Stravo]

I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to make me like this show, I opened this up for discussion because of my intial reaction when watching the first two episodes after hearing all this hype about it being so damned awesome. I started wtaching Farscape based on the same hype and I love that show. So I expected a similar reaction watching this one and it didn't click for me so I decided to get fan input - is this a show that takes time to like? How is this premise cool since I'm not buying it? These characters all seem so characteratured, will they get better?

I've gotten nice feedback and no flames so I can say this thread has been a success for me because it kept my interest up to watch more - and I'm glad I did.

And as to whether I give every new sci fi show this kind of analysis go back and look for the review thread for the BSG Miniseries where I thouroughly trash it as a floating turd in my toilet bowl that just won't go away when you flush because of similar issues about character cliches and a setting I wasn't thrilled about and see that I gave the regular series a chance and now find it to be one of the best sci fi TV shows I have ever seen - in fact I count it as definitely one of the best season 1's of any sci fi series.

I expect a little bit more out of my sci fi than the regular viewer that's all.

EDIT: BTW the theme song has really grown on me, I find myself humming it here at work. Is there a soundtrack out for the show I can't seem to find a listing for it on Amazon.com.

[Coyote]

The notion of what sci-fi is can be slippery at best. For example, Ben Bova has the pov that unless a story deals with a new type of science or scientific discovery, and its affects on people/society/culture, then it is not science fiction.

So, a story about the first voyage to Mars would be science fiction, the story about the second voyage to Mars is just a drama set in space. (Unless they discover something new again).

But then, a lot of people think Ben Bova is an asshole.

And another thing to bear in mind is that we are not rationed in our consumption of science fiction. There is no overriding authority that says "you can choose two shows each week and that's it". We can watch all of them and enjoy all of them-- SW, ST, B5, Ff, BSG, FS.... I pretty much enjoy them all, some more than others and frequently for different reasons. I love Farscape for different reasons than my love for Firefly or Star Wars.

Firefly is very worthwhile, and while it has some logic holes (River not being around during "Our Mrs. Reynolds") it is tighter and smarter than a lot of stuff out there, both sci fi and mundane.

[RedImperator]

As for the Starship Troopers uniforms: they look alike because they're...Starship Troopers uniforms. It was cheaper to rent them than make all new ones.

[Il Saggiatore]

And speaking of River I finally got to like River whom I have not liked because she's the weirdo psycher that infests Sci Fio like roaches. My bigger complaint regarding her is writer's laziness. In Our Mrs. Reynolds she would have seen right through the spy's duplicity. So what happens? She just vanishes. Nowhere to be found. In fact Zoe calls for all hands to appear and meet the new bride, evetyone shows up BUT River. They're in space so where is she? The ship is in deep trouble, everyone is panicking - No River.

On the DVD there is a deleted scene with River: she is not very sympathetic to "Mrs. Reynolds" (unlike the others).
However, it is still early on in the series, and most of what she says is considered gibberish by the crew (except for Simon, perhaps).

[Stark]

I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to make me like this show, I opened this up for discussion because of my intial reaction when watching the first two episodes after hearing all this hype about it being so damned awesome. I started wtaching Farscape based on the same hype and I love that show. So I expected a similar reaction watching this one and it didn't click for me so I decided to get fan input - is this a show that takes time to like? How is this premise cool since I'm not buying it? These characters all seem so characteratured, will they get better?

I've gotten nice feedback and no flames so I can say this thread has been a success for me because it kept my interest up to watch more - and I'm glad I did.

And as to whether I give every new sci fi show this kind of analysis go back and look for the review thread for the BSG Miniseries where I thouroughly trash it as a floating turd in my toilet bowl that just won't go away when you flush because of similar issues about character cliches and a setting I wasn't thrilled about and see that I gave the regular series a chance and now find it to be one of the best sci fi TV shows I have ever seen - in fact I count it as definitely one of the best season 1's of any sci fi series.

I expect a little bit more out of my sci fi than the regular viewer that's all.

EDIT: BTW the theme song has really grown on me, I find myself humming it here at work. Is there a soundtrack out for the show I can't seem to find a listing for it on Amazon.com.

I didn't intend my post to come off as an attack. It seemed that people were doing the 'you should like it because of x' thing, which obviously isn't going to work since you actually watch the shows you watch.

[Diamedes]

So, a story about the first voyage to Mars would be science fiction, the story about the second voyage to Mars is just a drama set in space. (Unless they discover something new again).

But then, a lot of people think Ben Bova is an asshole.

Unless said sequel concerns Anasazi alien ruins in Valles Marineris.

[Diamedes]

And a little point that the fans seem so gaga over is this melding of Chinese American culture. Well,...where the hell are the Asians? China's population is much larger than ours to begin with as of now. So we should be seeing the exact opposite of what we see in this show. Lots of Asians, few Westerners. I can't think of ANY asians I've seen just yet.

I'm still not buying the premise - you really mean to tell me that in the future we wil dress like the Old West too? Sorry. It doesn't bother me anywhere near as badly as it did in the begininng but you're not going to convince me that its a believable futire setting.

Right now China is on course for a population crash. They're at less than replacement rate and the population is aging. By 2050 the population in china is predicted to be only 7% higher than it is now, and declining from a peak over the next fifty, and the United Nations is constantly drawing these numbers lower as fertility rates in China drop. The average age will be 57. By contrast the population of the United States will be inthe 400 - 450 million with an average age of 37. Granted, this is in no small part due to a contiued influx from Latin America (which lends some creedence to you observation that a Spanish/American flux is more likely). It's also a prediction. The influence of the Catholic church is waning in Latin America for the first time since Columbus, so maybe the resistance to birth control will wane also, and this won't come true. But as it stands, the United States is the only first world nation with a positive population growth rate.

Of course, it could just be that the Chinese and Americans have spheres of influence. Like often attracts like as far as race goes, so maybe people tend to go to worlds where their culture dominates, but can't escape the other completely. Perhaps the Chinese moved up the spiral arm in one direction, the Americans another, and the only place of intense mixing is in the core.

Or, it's a matter of who could afford to escape the Earth That Was. Maybe the disaster happened while America was still ascendent, and America could afford to save more of it's people than China could.

And on the western wear, I still know jackasses who wear western wear, the peril of growing up in Western Colorado. I never understood it myself, now or 500 years from now, as a fashion statement. However, Whedon has pointed out that only the bad guys wear hats. Not many cowboy hats present ('sides Patience on White Fall and on background characters), so that's a place.

But note the industrialized planets, like Bellepheron or Osiris, where people dress more in the futuristic fashion we're used to, like the Alliance Fleet guys, the Blue Hand Men, Gabriel Tam, or Durran Haymer. For the most part the clothes aren't such much western wear as just plain, durable workers clothes.

It certainly beats track suits or some of the bondage gear of Farscape.

You know what irritates me, is that Niska's space station rotates, but the windows and central shaft are still oriented as though gravity parallels the axis. It's no biggie (Firefly obviously has artificial gravity), but rotate something that small and introduce the motion sickness it would cause?

Or, River is super smart, spoiler, but she thinks in "Out of Gas" that they'll freeze to death before they suffocate. Sorry, little crazy girl, but vacuum is a fantastic insulator, broiling in your own waste heat is a bigger worry.

[McC]

You know what irritates me, is that Niska's space station rotates, but the windows and central shaft are still oriented as though gravity parallels the axis. It's no biggie (Firefly obviously has artificial gravity), but rotate something that small and introduce the motion sickness it would cause?

If they have artificial gravity, the acceleration effects imparted by the station's spinning will not be felt by those aboard the station

[Diamedes]

There are still problems involved, such as the difficulty it introduces in docking, or the fact that the artificial gravity will cost energy to cancel the Coriolis force. Plus, Coriolis force is velocity dependent, so the computer would constantly have to adjust it for each person on the station based on their speed and direction.

Oh, and as far as the Chinese and American spheres, in an interview Whedon mentioned the capitol worlds and said that Sihnon and Londinium are the two biggest worlds, and that Sihnon is basically Chinese, Londinum is American, which is a small piece of evidence in favor of the spheres of influence idea.

[Diamedes]

There are still problems involved, such as the difficulty it introduces in docking, or the fact that the artificial gravity will cost energy to cancel the Coriolis force. Plus, Coriolis force is velocity dependent, so the computer would constantly have to adjust it for each person on the station based on their speed, direction, and location.

Oh, and as far as the Chinese and American spheres, in an interview Whedon mentioned the capitol worlds and said that Sihnon and Londinium are the two biggest worlds, and that Sihnon is basically Chinese, Londinum is American, which is a small piece of evidence in favor of the spheres of influence idea.

[Darwin]

And on the western wear, I still know jackasses who wear western wear, the peril of growing up in Western Colorado. I never understood it myself, now or 500 years from now, as a fashion statement. However, Whedon has pointed out that only the bad guys wear hats. Not many cowboy hats present ('sides Patience on White Fall and on background characters), so that's a place.

Well, there's the hideous hat that Jayne's mother knitted him.

But then, Jayne really isn't much of a good guy, is he?

[Majin Gojira]

He looks better in red

[Death from the Sea]

BTW the theme song has really grown on me, I find myself humming it here at work. Is there a soundtrack out for the show I can't seem to find a listing for it on Amazon.com.

dude, everyone I have ever talked to about Firefly said the exact same thing, myself included. The theme song does definitely grow on you. I remember when I was watching the DVD the first time, I would skip past the opening credits and song, unless I was doing something else as well. So eventually it grew on me enough to where I would catch myself singing along or rewinding it to hear it again.

[Anarchist Bunny]

And on the western wear, I still know jackasses who wear western wear, the peril of growing up in Western Colorado. I never understood it myself, now or 500 years from now, as a fashion statement. However, Whedon has pointed out that only the bad guys wear hats. Not many cowboy hats present ('sides Patience on White Fall and on background characters), so that's a place.

Well, there's the hideous hat that Jayne's mother knitted him.

But then, Jayne really isn't much of a good guy, is he?

If you pay attention he is, sorta. He's in the dark grey. *spoiler warning for stravo* He does all this for his sister, he's desperate to help her. He comes off as cold, ruthless, and greedy, but his reactions in Jaynestown show a different side, how he doesn't even try to avoid that shotgun blast(personally cause I think he knew he diserved it), and how he reacted to the mudder taking the shot for him, and then he retaliates. He doesn't betray the captain, not out of fear but respect. He doesn't feel the same way about River and Simon and so he doesn't mind back stabbing them. And then Package gives us the tidbit that he's sending his money home to get medicine for his sick sister.

[Coyote]

Also, ithink that any clothes worn for rugged, hard work will end up looking somewhat like Western wear simply because that's what Western wear was designed for.

Even today-- if you're going to buy a motorcycle, what do you wear for protection? Leather. Leather jackets, etc... are there better materials? Sure-- Kevlar, titanium, but who can afford that? Leather is cheaper (relatively), flexible, easy to come by...

Wide brim hats are still the best sunblock you can get. Face it-- any set of clothes designed for rugged, blue-collar work, once you sling a holster on it, is going to look "Western". Form follows function, I think.

[Darwin]

If you pay attention he is, sorta. He's in the dark grey. *spoiler warning for stravo* He does all this for his sister, he's desperate to help her. He comes off as cold, ruthless, and greedy, but his reactions in Jaynestown show a different side, how he doesn't even try to avoid that shotgun blast(personally cause I think he knew he diserved it), and how he reacted to the mudder taking the shot for him, and then he retaliates. He doesn't betray the captain, not out of fear but respect. He doesn't feel the same way about River and Simon and so he doesn't mind back stabbing them. And then Package gives us the tidbit that he's sending his money home to get medicine for his sick sister.

Caring about someone doesn't make you a good guy.

They would have spaced Jayne long ago if he wasn't capable and dependable. (you can depend on him to be greedy and backstabbing) He's certainly worth having around in a fight. Noble motivation or not, he ain't a good guy.

[Stravo]

OK, next update. I watched Out of Gas, Ariel, Trash and War stories

Now people raved about Out of Gas and I have to say it lived up to the raving. It was very cool and I like the flashbacks to how all the crew met. It was a really nice way of looking at characters in a different light.

You know the characters now but when you get a glimpse of what they were like a few years ago it is fantastic. Kaylee's reveal fucking the previous engineer was one of the best reveals because you would never expect it.

Jayne's intro was so spot on and it spoke to how Mal just knows that Jayne will sell them out for something better which dovetails nicely into my favorite episode of this disc - Ariel.

But my key gripe about Out of Gas is just how is this episode much more different than any of the other 'Disaster in space' episode like: Disaster in TNG, The Ship in DS9 and even going as far back as Original BSG with Fire in Space. Each of these episodes is about the ship in danger, the crew reacts to the disaster in their own unique way and we get to know something about them and their relationship with others. Its a sort of set piece type of show. I think people here love this episode on the strength of the characters and not the story because the plot is pure formula.

Ariel has been one of my favorite episodes because of the twists, the plot, the tension, the introduction of some back story on River, an expansion of Simon's character, Jayne's betrayal and most importantly Mal's reaction to Jayne's betrayal. Fucking great,

It wasn't Picard dressing down a crew member in his ready room, Sisko emoting like a madman, Kirk quietly fuming, etc. This was a guy ready to kill out of loyalty and payback for betrayal. You could honestly believe that Jayne would have died. And Jayne's reaction was so real and well acted.

LOVED Ariel.

Trash brought back one of my favorite villains, Mal's ex wife. I loved her and the depths of her lies and deception. How low could she go? ALthouigh once again, River is contrived out of the plot to make sure the villain gets to betray the crew. At least this time they deigned to write in a reason unlike the first episode where she inexpicably diappears.

The last episode had a true action scene. I like the sneaking around and conniving that is in most episodes but sometimes you want to see a straight up battle scene and we get that in War Stories with some nice scenes with Mal and the Pilot. The thing about Zoe and Mal's supposed sexual tension was fun and in the end the payoff with Mal taking Zoe in his arms and she very business like saying "Take me sir. Take me hard." was just hilarious. Although I thought the cheap "glue on the severed ear like it was never cut off bit" was pure and utter hack. Yuckkity yuck yuck.

Great stuff on this disk. Now to the last disc next weekend.

[Stofsk]

He's arrived! I'm so proud of our boy, he's all grown up now. *sniff*

Translation: I'm glad you gave the series a chance and stuck with it, despite initial misgivings.

[SylasGaunt]

Still love that bit in War Stories..

Zoe: "This is something the Captain has to do for himself"
Mal (struggling with henchmen over Ye Olde Bottomless Shaft): "No it isn't!"

[RedImperator]

Trash brought back one of my favorite villains, Mal's ex wife. I loved her and the depths of her lies and deception. How low could she go? ALthouigh once again, River is contrived out of the plot to make sure the villain gets to betray the crew. At least this time they deigned to write in a reason unlike the first episode where she inexpicably diappears.

...

Great stuff on this disk. Now to the last disc next weekend.

Ah, Disc 3. That's when the show really hits its stride. And when you're done it, you're thinking, "Fuck. Three more episodes and that's all there is. Fucking Fox." At least that's what I thought.

As for Trash: I don't think River could have told the crew anything they didn't know. The fact that Mal wouldn't let Saffron pick up a weapon even as they were running away from the Feds pretty much indicates he expected her to betray them if given the opportunity. That she did manage it was entirely because he let his guard down. And they had the backup plan anyway (how she managed to sabotage "Serenity" is anther question--she must have done it right before she left the ship with Mal, while Kaylee was working on how to reprogram the drone, because Kaylee would have noticed if she'd fucked with the engine earlier).

I do agree about "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and the problem with River disappearing. In the deleted scenes, IIRC, she does in fact come out and say Saffron isn't who she says she is, but she does it in her usual cryptic, crazy way, so nobody understands what she means. As well, at that point in the story, nobody really understood what River was, or that her "instincts" about people should be trusted. They deleted that scene for time, but they should have kept it in, because it's an easy plot hole to fix.

[Durandal]

Inara is beautiful (not Aeryn Sun gorgeous or Chianna hot mind you) but I love how smart she is and her nice regal attitude. Unfortunately she's the prostitute with the heart of gold one of the oldest charcater cliches since there was writing so it kind of bugs me a bit but I really like her chemistry with Mal and her reaction in Our Mrs. Reynolds when she finds out he's married and then when she thinks he's dead and finds out he's still alive just sells the whole romance. Very nice.

You had to love Mal's confrontation with Inara at the end of that episode.

"I knew it. I knew you let her kiss you."

Mal is so lovably dense.

[Itô Doeblin]

ALthouigh once again, River is contrived out of the plot to make sure the villain gets to betray the crew. At least this time they deigned to write in a reason unlike the first episode where she inexpicably diappears.

As for Trash: I don't think River could have told the crew anything they didn't know. [...]
I do agree about "Our Mrs. Reynolds" and the problem with River disappearing. In the deleted scenes, IIRC, she does in fact come out and say Saffron isn't who she says she is, but she does it in her usual cryptic, crazy way, so nobody understands what she means.

What happens to River in "Trash"? In the shooting scripts to both episodes, she's there, and she does try to warn them:

In "Our Mrs. Reynolds", there's a scene where Book is making up a room for Saffron, River enters and:

SAFFRON
I don't need anything, I'm really just fine -

RIVER
(turning)
You're a thief.

Slight beat as Saffron recoils from River's accusation. Book notices that she shrinks a bit toward Mal, who puts a protective hand to her back.

MAL
Well, ho, let's play nice here.
(to Simon)
Your sister's got some funny notions.

SIMON
That's not untrue.

In the shooting script of "Trash", there's a scene where Jayne, Simon and River are talking, and:

RIVER
(looking at Jayne)
She's a liar.

JAYNE
That don't exactly set her apart from the rest of us. And the plunder sounds fun enough.

RIVER
She's a liar and no good will come of her.

JAYNE
Well, I say as a rule that girlfolk ain't to be trusted.

They deleted that scene for time, but they should have kept it in, because it's an easy plot hole to fix.

Well, there seems to be a kind of tradition with Mutant Enemy to cut lines that would explain away obvious plotholes. I remember the same thing happening in the Buffy episode "Hell's Bells", when they cut two or three lines -- not more than a thirty seconds, I'd guess -- explaining Giles's absence from Xander and Anya's wedding.

Have a nice day,
Itô

[McC]

"TRASH" SPOILERS
Skip this post entirely if you have not yet seen "Trash."

In the shooting script of "Trash", there's a scene where Jayne, Simon and River are talking, and:

RIVER
(looking at Jayne)
She's a liar.

JAYNE
That don't exactly set her apart from the rest of us. And the plunder sounds fun enough.

RIVER
She's a liar and no good will come of her.

JAYNE
Well, I say as a rule that girlfolk ain't to be trusted.

Interestingly, if you continue the lines of this scene, it becomes very double-edged.

RIVER
Jayne is a girl's name.

At this point, Simon doesn't yet know that Jayne betrayed them. River's "Jayne is a girl's name" comment could easily refer back to her first statement "She's a liar/She's a liar and no good will come of her" and thus be referring to both Jayne and Saffron. Lo and behold, Simon learns of Jayne's treachery from River before the end of the episode. I always thought this is how Joss intended it to come across, because it's very subtle and very clever

[Stravo]

I just watched the last disc of firefly with the episodes Heart of Gold, The Message and Objects at Rest.

First off, after the wonderful disc 3 with such episodes as Ariel and Out of Gas why am I assaulted with the horrible The Message? That episode is by far the worst of the lot and a pure filler episode. I was appalled and hoped that this was not a sign of things to come for the ending of the series.

Heart of Gold was better but certainly not on the same level as some of the previous episodes. I loved the interplay between Mal and Inara. When she finds out that Mal slept with the madaam of the brothel and she breaks down and cried it was such a moment for her character to break that wall she's put up in regard to her feelings for Mal and a vindication of what we all knew from the first episode. Unfortunately the complication was handled in typipcal TV manner when they killed the madaam. *sigh*

Also the scene where the villain makes the whore get on her knees to service him seemed gratuitous for TV and completely unneccesary. Which leads into my biggest gripe - the villain. He was a complete and total characteture. No writing went into making him other than villain 101 bullshit. Not what I usually expect from this show.

So now I'm down to Objects at Rest, more than a little disappointed and wary already.

Well, without a doubt this was the best episode in the series. The character of River finally graduates from being the annoying stereotypical tortured psi talent that infests sci fi to someone who is as interesting as the rest of the crew.

The opening scene is simply gorgeous. Her walking trhought the ship and seeing each character reveal something of themselves in brief snippets was just spectcular from a writing standpoint. Plus River was actually attractive in this episode. She moves with such a sublime grace (Whedon says she is a ballerina in his insuferably dull and self important commentary) and has such pretty feet.

Jubul Early. The antimatter to the villain from Heart of Gold's matter. He is perhaps the best written villain in this series and that is saying alot when you have other winners like Safron. I liked his early dialogue in the episode. His dialogue with Kaylee sends a chill down your spine "Have you ever been raped?" Wow. I thought right away - here's a fucking VILLAIN.

Best laugh outloud moment - Jayne wakes up for a moment as he hears fighting and throws aside a blanket on the wall revealing an arsenal of weapons, the music surges heroically...and he promptly wraps himself in the blanket and goes back to sleep. Simply AWESOME.

The episode ends with the acceptance of River as part of the crew and you wishing there was more to see.

In the final analysis this was a very good show, Not the second coming as some have touted it to be, for instance I think Neo BSG Season 1 as better as well as Andromeda Season 1 but it would have been great to see this show be allowed to evolve and grow.

[McC]

The one thing about Objects that I never got, and still don't get, is why Jubal kept on mis-hearing things. "Are you alliance?" "Am I lion? I never really thought of myself as a lion. I suppose you could say that though. I do have a mighty roar." "I said are you alliance..." "Oh, I thought..." "No..." "...that's weird."

He does that a few other times too. What was up with that? Was it River "jamming" him?

But Objects is definitely the best capstone episode to a series I've ever seen. I have to differ with you on BSG1 and Andromeda1. Neither even remotely compares to Firefly, IMO.