Jedi Master/Student Relations and No Attachment Policy

[Stravo]

We know that one of the primary taboos of the Jedi Order is having attachments, whether it be to children, lovers, family, etc. Yet we have seen on several occasion where the Jedi/Padawan relationship forms the very attachment they claim to reject.

In TPM Qui Gon urges Obi Wan to train Anakin even though Obi Wan's instincts were against it he decides to do so anyway to carry out the final wishes of his master. If there was no attachment to Qui Gon then he should have been able to deny that final request. Also in the duel with Maul he gives in to anger at the loss of his master and attacks in a fury opening himself to possible dark ramifications.

In the Clonewars Vol. II Obi Wan urges Anakin's ascension to Jedi Knighthood against his better judgmenet and the concerns of the council. If Anakin were not his padawan and friend I wonder whether obi Wan would be one of the voices in dissension.

In ANH Luke reacts to losing his master (Obi Wan) by getting angry and blasting the shit out of Imperial troops.

Does the Order turn a blind eye to this situation or is it an acceptable Attachment? What are your thoughts? Is it reasonable to expect there to be no attachement between a relationship that spans the childhood and young adult life of a padawan?

As a sidenote:
In AOTC Anakin SHOULD have gone after Obi Wan on Geonosis but he's such an evil little snot that he doesn't but that's just horrible charcter development from GL.

[Vympel]

It's not supposed to happen but it does anyway. Obi-Wan has the same kind of attachment to Anakin, and of course Anakin has it with Obi-Wan, goes without saying.

[Stofsk]

As a sidenote:
In AOTC Anakin SHOULD have gone after Obi Wan on Geonosis but he's such an evil little snot that he doesn't but that's just horrible charcter development from GL.

He had just been ordered by the retards of the Jedi Council to stay the fuck away and keep the Senator safe. And by the way, Anakin SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO GEONOSIS, he SHOULD have stayed put and protect the Senator, because that was his fucking JOB.

For fuck's sake Stravo, you whine it's bad character development for Anakin to show some form of duty and respect for his superiors? What the fuck? Anakin wanted to go to Geonosis, but couldn't because the Council just ordered him not to, and because he had standing orders from both the Council AND Obi-wan to protect the Senator. When he went to Geonosis anyway, he nearly got Padme killed and didn't do much to save Obi-wan. And it wasn't his choice, Padme chose to go unilaterally. Her ship, her decision.

I know you hate the prequels but really, don't let your prejudices cloud the issue. Anakin going to Geonosis is a direct parallel and comparison to Luke going to Bespin. The former wants to go, but isn't headstrong and has just been chastised by the Jedi Council. But both go, and both were ultimately useless to what went down anyway. Anakin got captured, and didn't stop Dooku. Luke fought and lost Vader, and couldn't save Han and had to be rescued himself.

I find it amazing that you pan that scene.

Padme: "They'll never get there in time. Look, Geonosis is less than a parsec away."

Anakin: "If he's still alive."

Padme: "Are you just going to sit here? He's your friend, your mentor..."

Anakin: "He's like my father! But you heard Master Windu, he gave me strict orders stay here."

You can see that Anakin wants to go to Geonosis, but he can't because his hands are TIED. When Padme starts the ship and heads to Geonosis you see him smile. In a 'heh, that's pretty smart' kind of way. He actually followed his orders, didn't even grumble about how it's not fair, and was being very fucking MATURE about the whole matter. And you consider this poor storytelling?

[Stofsk]

It's not supposed to happen but it does anyway. Obi-Wan has the same kind of attachment to Anakin, and of course Anakin has it with Obi-Wan, goes without saying.

I can't say that the Jedi weren't fucking stupid about the whole matter over 'attachments=bad' when they do it as a matter of course with their Master-Padawan relationship.

[Uraniun235]

In a way, it almost seems to me like the Council doesn't want attachments being formed out of fear that Jedi will decide to quit in favor of starting and raising a family.

[Stofsk]

Does the Order turn a blind eye to this situation or is it an acceptable Attachment?

It is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. BTW, the Dark Woman considers all attachments to be a darkside thing, and she personifies the archetype of 'hateful bitch' in the comics.

What are your thoughts?

That 'no-attachments' is bullshit and unworkable.

Is it reasonable to expect there to be no attachement between a relationship that spans the childhood and young adult life of a padawan?

Nope.

[Lord Revan]

KOTOR series has Force bonds from between a master and a apprentice (though who's master and who's apprentice is not clear in the Bastilla/Revan bond), so closeness to one's master might even help a Jedi (that said, the Jedi orders rules are unworkble as they are).

[GeneralTacticus]

KOTOR series has Force bonds from between a master and a apprentice (though who's master and who's apprentice is not clear in the Bastilla/Revan bond), so closeness to one's master might even help a Jedi (that said, the Jedi orders rules are unworkble as they are).

That particular bond is rather different, having been created by Bastila's use of the Force to preserve Revan's life after Malak's betrayal.

[Crown]

Guys, you have to close the size tags in order for it to work!

[Knife]

Since TPM, I always figured that the close Master/Padawan relationship was a fail safe for the Jedi. A way to get new members loyal to the order by having father figures as their Masters and superiors.

This of course is slaughtered in AotC's, though Anakin's interpertation of Compasion as unconditional love does give some lee way. Obviously, the Jedi are trained to 'love' the Republic and trained to be loyal to the Order. They are dependent on the Order for clothes, food, support, ect...

So maybe the Jedi turn a blind eye or have the 'unwritten law' that while you are not suppost to have attachments, having an attachment to the Order and the Republic will be acceptable.

[Enforcer Talen]

the corps is mother, the corps is father.

-b5

[Illuminatus Primus]

Does the Order turn a blind eye to this situation or is it an acceptable Attachment?

It is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. BTW, the Dark Woman considers all attachments to be a darkside thing, and she personifies the archetype of 'hateful bitch' in the comics.

Did you see the Tales where Vader owns her ass? I wanted to cheer. He kicked the shit out of her.

[Crown]

Does the Order turn a blind eye to this situation or is it an acceptable Attachment?

It is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. BTW, the Dark Woman considers all attachments to be a darkside thing, and she personifies the archetype of 'hateful bitch' in the comics.

Did you see the Tales where Vader owns her ass? I wanted to cheer. He kicked the shit out of her.

Online? Or is it print? If it's print than some scans would be appreciated, hint, hint.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. BTW, the Dark Woman considers all attachments to be a darkside thing, and she personifies the archetype of 'hateful bitch' in the comics.

Did you see the Tales where Vader owns her ass? I wanted to cheer. He kicked the shit out of her.

Online? Or is it print? If it's print than some scans would be appreciated, hint, hint.

Print, but I don't own it. I wish that Tales story was canon, and I'd like it to be made so by reference.

Darth Vader arrives on some gardenish world to continue the Jedi Purge, and duels the Dark Woman, and kicks her ass.

[Stravo]

As a sidenote:
In AOTC Anakin SHOULD have gone after Obi Wan on Geonosis but he's such an evil little snot that he doesn't but that's just horrible charcter development from GL.

He had just been ordered by the retards of the Jedi Council to stay the fuck away and keep the Senator safe. And by the way, Anakin SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO GEONOSIS, he SHOULD have stayed put and protect the Senator, because that was his fucking JOB.

For fuck's sake Stravo, you whine it's bad character development for Anakin to show some form of duty and respect for his superiors? What the fuck? Anakin wanted to go to Geonosis, but couldn't because the Council just ordered him not to, and because he had standing orders from both the Council AND Obi-wan to protect the Senator. When he went to Geonosis anyway, he nearly got Padme killed and didn't do much to save Obi-wan. And it wasn't his choice, Padme chose to go unilaterally. Her ship, her decision.

He disobeys every other order including arguing with Obi Wan in public in front of the charges they are supposed to be protecting and then when the chips are down and he is supposed to feel that Obi Wan is his father and want to help him THEN he decides to be goodie two lightsabers? What precisely do you call that when a character is shown to be rebellious and disobeying orders throughout a movie that suddenly decides to follow orders when his father figure's life is in danger. When it was mommy his ass disobeyed the Council, Obi Wan and placed the woman he loved in danger. When it was obi Wan he whined worse than Luke wanting to go to Toshi Station.

That is what we call poor character devlopment. That is what we call showing us ZERO bond between these two men that are supposed to have a tragic break in the next movie. Does anyone truly give a shit that they will cross lightsabers later? Does anyone view it as a tragedy?

That is the source of the complaint about Anakin's actions in AOTC in this instance.

I know you hate the prequels but really, don't let your prejudices cloud the issue. Anakin going to Geonosis is a direct parallel and comparison to Luke going to Bespin. The former wants to go, but isn't headstrong and has just been chastised by the Jedi Council. But both go, and both were ultimately useless to what went down anyway. Anakin got captured, and didn't stop Dooku. Luke fought and lost Vader, and couldn't save Han and had to be rescued himself.

Its a very bad parallel. Luke chose to go and I respected him for it. Anakin was dragged to Geonosis by a woman that obviosuly had more feeling for Obi Wan than Anakin did. We're not talking about what's right. We're talking about what's right for the character.

Luke leaving to Dagobah was the right thing to do for his character. He loved his friends and would do anything to save them. So he did the wrong thing but the right thing for his character.

Anakin did the right thing but the wrong thing for his character. He spent the entirety of AOTC disobeying orders, arguing with Obi Wan at one point he needed to be threatened with expulsion from the Order to stop being rebellious. That was AFTER his what you call MATURE decision on Tatooine to sit and wait so how much did he mature then? He seems to be more than willing to let Obi Wan die but if it was mommy and Padme - two women he only knew for far less time than Obi Wan whom he spent his childhood and young adult life with living and fighting together - he will throw all caution to the wind. Care to explain the maturity in that?

And this will be the tragic duel between two old and dear friends? More like "C'mon Obi Wan spank his ass so we can all go home."

Luke CHOSE to go and went of his own volition. Anakin chose NOT to go and dragged there by Padme who made the decision for him. I fail to see the parallel.

And frankly I'm getting very tired of people stating that "oh nos you hate the prequels so what you say is biased and we can just point that out with cute rolly eyes and the bad writing and plot holes will go away."

Mike doesn't put up with that shit when it comes to his debates in religious topics so why should I with these debates in regards to the prequels? What are they? Above reproach? We should just all be good fans and be happy we have any Star Wars at all? Nope. That's not me. I'll point out the weaknesses and writing flaws all I want and if you think that's biased and makes my argument any LESS valid than you can kiss my ass and not participate.

[Noble Ire]

Mike doesn't put up with that shit when it comes to his debates in religious topics so why should I with these debates in regards to the prequels? What are they? Above reproach? We should just all be good fans and be happy we have any Star Wars at all? Nope. That's not me. I'll point out the weaknesses and writing flaws all I want and if you think that's biased and makes my argument any LESS valid than you can kiss my ass and not participate.

I wont argue that the PT dosent have its faults......it has quite a few, and it is certainly not above reproach, although I personaly dont hate or even dislike it.

I didnt have a problem with the scene in question and I thought it worked well, although it is true Anakin came off as too much off a punk as a whole in AOTC. However, I presume the Clone Wars builds up a stronger bond between Obi and Anakin (as seen in the novels) and hopefully this will be demonstrated in the first half of ROTS (this is done fairly well in the novelization.)

[Stofsk]

He disobeys every other order including arguing with Obi Wan in public in front of the charges they are supposed to be protecting and then when the chips are down and he is supposed to feel that Obi Wan is his father and want to help him THEN he decides to be goodie two lightsabers?

Yes, because he DOESN'T disobey all that many orders, in fact the only order I can remember off the top of my head was his order to stay on Naboo. But when he does disobey it is when he's away from the Jedi Council. Or didn't you notice that when the council puts him in his place everytime he stops being 'rebellious'?

What precisely do you call that when a character is shown to be rebellious and disobeying orders throughout a movie that suddenly decides to follow orders when his father figure's life is in danger.

He always followed orders because he wasn't shown to be rebellious. It was only after he was out from under Obi-wan's wing that he displayed temper.

When it was mommy his ass disobeyed the Council,

Who weren't around to tell him what to do.

When it was obi Wan he whined worse than Luke wanting to go to Toshi Station.

Bullshit. I gave the quote - no whining at all. Just a straight simple "I know what my orders are. I'll follow them." He's a good little soldier, and he's just been put in his place by Mace fucking Windu.

THAT'S a 'goodie two lightsabers' Stravo. THAT'S him showing maturity. Following orders. He's a Jedi, not a Rebel like Luke. He's a different character, and with a different set of masters. That entails a different set of expectations upon his shoulders.

That is what we call poor character devlopment.

Nope, that's what we call showing the character development you don't like. You know, when you called Anakin an 'evil little snot' then belittled the writing for a scene I did not find in the least bit objectionable?

That is what we call showing us ZERO bond between these two men that are supposed to have a tragic break in the next movie.

Anakin disobeys the council anyway and goes to Geonosis, so your point here is meaningless. There is a bond between them.

Does anyone truly give a shit that they will cross lightsabers later? Does anyone view it as a tragedy?

Yes.

That is the source of the complaint about Anakin's actions in AOTC in this instance.

And as I showed above, they're baseless complaints.

Its a very bad parallel. Luke chose to go and I respected him for it. Anakin was dragged to Geonosis by a woman that obviosuly had more feeling for Obi Wan than Anakin did. We're not talking about what's right. We're talking about what's right for the character.

Yoda and even Ben didn't have the kind of power over Luke the way the Jedi Council in its entirety had over Luke. 'Anakin was dragged to Geonosis' What, you make it sound like he was handcuffed to the fucking ship. It was very tongue in cheek with Padme all but winking at Anakin and saying "Well I guess you're going to have to protect me no matter where I go, huh?" I didn't see the ball and chain strapped to Anakin's ankle, and he grudgingly accepted the Council's reprimand to stay out of it. In fact, it was Padme who was the rebellious one. And he smiled when she gave him the chance to flip the finger at the Council.

Anakin did the right thing but the wrong thing for his character. He spent the entirety of AOTC disobeying orders, arguing with Obi Wan at one point he needed to be threatened with expulsion from the Order to stop being rebellious. That was AFTER his what you call MATURE decision on Tatooine to sit and wait so how much did he mature then? He seems to be more than willing to let Obi Wan die but if it was mommy and Padme - two women he only knew for far less time than Obi Wan whom he spent his childhood and young adult life with living and fighting together - he will throw all caution to the wind. Care to explain the maturity in that?

Are you nuts?

Obiwan is a trained Jedi Master, the guy who's been with for 10 years, who he knows is good in a fight and who knows can handle himself. Padme is a girl senator who's in the middle of a warzone who he's got a hardon for.

Leaving aside the fact that rationally you wouldn't expect her to be handle herself, she also had no place on the battlefield - given this, he ALSO had strong feelings for her, feelings the Jedi never taught him how to deal with, feelings he can't control, feelings that overpower him. Place yourself in his shoes, replace Padme with your daughter. Is he being a whiny brat for ordering the ship down? How much would you be PISSED OFF at the motherfucker who told you to "STFU, n00b, and do your duty."

Leaving this aside and the fact he reacted emotionally, when Obi-wan chastises him for it he acquiesces. Again, showing maturity. What, he can't yell a bit over his lover quite possibly being seriously injured, and THEN 'come to his senses'? "She would do her duty." As he would. I can't BELIEVE you think he's being immature or a whiny brat. Or compare this to "Aw but I was going down to Toshe Station to pick up some power converters." Christ Luke was ten times more whiny than Anakin was. You think Anakin was WORSE? Unbelievable.

Luke CHOSE to go and went of his own volition. Anakin chose NOT to go and dragged there by Padme who made the decision for him. I fail to see the parallel.

They both should have listened to their masters. They both went because they had more recklessness than good sense. Anakin didn't get 'dragged along' by Padme, anymore than Luke got 'dragged along' by the Force vision. Both turned out to be useless to the final result anyway. Both went because they had strong feelings for a friend or friends that were in jeopardy. Both were maimed as a result, and bore those scars as reminders, and BOTH had to be rescued. Both did the wrong thing that was 'right for the character'.

The parallel is there.

And frankly I'm getting very tired of people stating that "oh nos you hate the prequels so what you say is biased and we can just point that out with cute rolly eyes and the bad writing and plot holes will go away."

And frankly I'm getting very tired of hearing people state that the prequels have poor character development when they don't have the character development THEY want.

BTW, I rolled my eyes at your character development gripe, not at your prejudice against the prequels. I don't give a flying fuck if you think it's poor storytelling, character development, bad acting, or what have you - justify it as poor storytelling don't treat it as a given.

Mike doesn't put up with that shit when it comes to his debates in religious topics so why should I with these debates in regards to the prequels?

Bias wasn't what I called you on; prejudice was the term. Bias is fine if you're right. You can be biased towards a correct answer. But that comes after viewing the facts. Mike is biased towards evolution for obvious reasons. Prejudice is an attitude you have before you view the facts. Hence why prejudice is worse.

There is a subtle difference.

What are they? Above reproach?

Of course not! Did I say that?

No. I said don't let your prejudice cloud the issue. I then explained why your little 'sidenote' was full of it.

We should just all be good fans and be happy we have any Star Wars at all? Nope. That's not me.

Good. That's not me either.

I'll point out the weaknesses and writing flaws all I want

And I'll continue pointing out the weaknesses in your argument if I see them, and I saw them with your sidenote.

and if you think that's biased and makes my argument any LESS valid than you can kiss my ass and not participate.

Or maybe you can start putting forward a valid argument? That is what I attacked you on, not so much that you were prejudiced but that you put forward a bad argument.

As a sidenote:
In AOTC Anakin SHOULD have gone after Obi Wan on Geonosis but he's such an evil little snot that he doesn't but that's just horrible charcter development from GL.

This is what I was ing my eyes at.

First, you say he SHOULD have gone after Obi-wan on Geonsosis. No, he shouldn't, in the same way Luke shouldn't have gone to Bespin. In the same way no-one should recklessly jump into the frying pan even if it's for good intentions. But this doesn't matter, and its a point that's dumb anyway, because Anakin DID go to Geonosis. And no, he wasn't 'dragged there by Padme kicking and screaming' - it was tongue in cheek, and she facilitated his rebellion. Obviously their relationship had also grown to the point where she felt like breaking the rules for him. But whatever.

Second, you say he's 'such an evil little snot that he doesn't' - except that he DOES. He was reluctant to go because he had been immediately chastised by Mace Windu. He wanted to go, but he's still a padawan, not a Knight. He doesn't have autonomy. He's not like Luke, who had to take care of himself for most of his life. He's always been under the wing of a Jedi master or the council itself. This is a direct contrast to Anakin and Luke's characters and highlights their differences. This is clearly represented in the films, and in this sentence you misrepresent AOTC. Anakin an evil little snot? I got the impression from the movie that he was a good kid at heart, or his heart was in the right place, but he just didn't have the necessary guidance. Why was he 'evil' for not flipping the finger to his boss and telling him to go shove a power coupling up his arse? Would you do that to your boss? To your parents?

Third, you finish by saying 'but that's just horrible character development from GL'. So not only were points #1 and 2 wrong and clearly shown to be that by myself and an even cursory examination of the film, but here you ADMIT your feeling is "Oh it's just another bit of crappy writing, so what can you expect?" Then you have the temerity to jump on my arse when I call you on your prejudice? You're not biased, Stravo. Right. You just don't like the films. Well newsflash, I didn't say you have to like it. But if you're going to criticise the storytelling then make an effort. Calling him 'an evil little snot' and 'the writing is crappy' doesn't exactly show you to be completely objective over the analysis.

So what am I supposed to conclude? Your entire argument consists of points #1, 2, and 3. The first two are shown to be meaningless as they don't conform to whats onscreen. The third shows that you consider 1 and 2 to be another example of bad storytelling - only it's NOT bad storytelling, and I gave the reasons why. So you don't like that GL went A when you wanted him to go B? Or maybe C? So what? Write it differently in Fanfics.

You criticised a particular scene which I found to be lacking in analysis. I called you on it. If YOU don't like it then YOU may not participate, as this is a discussion board and I was aiming at addressing some points I found to be flawed. I don't need my points waved away because I said you were prejudiced towards the film. You don't like the films; that's your right. But if you're going to start bagging them as shitty writing as though there's a magic formula for 'Great Stories' then I'm gonna call you on that. If you're gonna say Anakin was more of a whiny brat than Luke was, who DEFINED the concept of 'whiny brat', then I'm gonna call you on that. If you're going to call Anakin an 'evil little snot' for a scene that never happens onscreen, I'm gonna call you on that.

Maybe I spoke too soon about prejudice clouding your objectivity, and if so then I apologise. In an effort to smooth things over, I'll concede that the storytelling wasn't the best it could have been and I have issues to take with the prequels as well. I sometimes agree with what you say, more often than not in fact. But I'm not going to lift your skirt up and blow smoke up your arse. If you're wrong I'll tell you, and I hope to discuss it with you as well. No hard feelings?

[Stravo]

He disobeys every other order including arguing with Obi Wan in public in front of the charges they are supposed to be protecting and then when the chips are down and he is supposed to feel that Obi Wan is his father and want to help him THEN he decides to be goodie two lightsabers?

Yes, because he DOESN'T disobey all that many orders, in fact the only order I can remember off the top of my head was his order to stay on Naboo. But when he does disobey it is when he's away from the Jedi Council. Or didn't you notice that when the council puts him in his place everytime he stops being 'rebellious'?

He argues with Obi Wan in front of their charges about what's implicit in their orders. Obi Wan has to bitch slap him verbally to get him to shut up.

He argues down Padme in front of the Queen of Naboo. Real diplomat and gentlemen our young Anikan is.

He sets up a trap using Padme as bait without Obi Wan's permission.

His going off to find mommy putting the senator's life at risk and leaving her alone for about a day with only a cripple and a farmer and his GF as protection. Was it implicit in the Council's orders to leave her completely unproetcted while he went to find mommy?

Placing the mission to capture Dooku at risk twice: First when he first tries to stop the pursuit to get Padme back, only a threat of expulsion snapped him back.

Second disobeying his master's direct orders when attacking Dooku like an idiot.

I'd say that's what we call a history of rebelliousness.

What precisely do you call that when a character is shown to be rebellious and disobeying orders throughout a movie that suddenly decides to follow orders when his father figure's life is in danger.

He always followed orders because he wasn't shown to be rebellious. It was only after he was out from under Obi-wan's wing that he displayed temper.

So setting up a trap using Padme as bait wihtout telling him and arguing about their mission in front of Padme was all signs of him being a good apprentice before he got out from under Obi Wan's wing?

When it was mommy his ass disobeyed the Council,

Who weren't around to tell him what to do.

Excuse me? He explicitly states he is disobeying the council's command. He could have called them, said "Hey I have extenuating circumstances here." He did it on purpose because he knew what the answer would be. He brought the senator into danger instead of keeping her out of it and compounds it by leaving her completely alone instead of at least not exaserbating his disobedience and taking her with him.

When it was obi Wan he whined worse than Luke wanting to go to Toshi Station.

Bullshit. I gave the quote - no whining at all. Just a straight simple "I know what my orders are. I'll follow them." He's a good little soldier, and he's just been put in his place by Mace fucking Windu.

THAT'S a 'goodie two lightsabers' Stravo. THAT'S him showing maturity. Following orders. He's a Jedi, not a Rebel like Luke. He's a different character, and with a different set of masters. That entails a different set of expectations upon his shoulders.

Hmmm....I have all the examples cited above. He is NOT a good little soldier. He follows his instincts not his orders. Jumping off of speeders without warning in the middle of a chase, setting traps that place their charge in danger without telling his master, leaving his charge completely alone when he goes off on personal business, charging Sith lords against his master's orders, trying to override his master's orders and botch the overall goal of capturing Dooku - That was Yoda's over arching order at the Battle of Geonosis - and confronting his master on almost every decision he makes throughout the movie, incuding such nice digs like: "You think your senses are more developed than my own?"

That is what we call poor character devlopment.

Nope, that's what we call showing the character development you don't like. You know, when you called Anakin an 'evil little snot' then belittled the writing for a scene I did not find in the least bit objectionable?

If you think that the movie showed Anakin and Obi Wan as having a relationship akin to father and son then fine. I dont happen to agree with that. Look to the OT with two exampled of a father-son like relationship between a padawan and his master: Luke and Yoda. Luke and Obi Wan. If Luke turned against either one and dueled with them that would be tragic. In this instance we can't wait for it.

That is what we call showing us ZERO bond between these two men that are supposed to have a tragic break in the next movie.

Anakin disobeys the council anyway and goes to Geonosis, so your point here is meaningless. There is a bond between them.

NO he doesn't. If Padme said "You're right we'll stay." then end of story Anakin stays put.

That is the source of the complaint about Anakin's actions in AOTC in this instance.

And as I showed above, they're baseless complaints.

We obviously disagree.

Its a very bad parallel. Luke chose to go and I respected him for it. Anakin was dragged to Geonosis by a woman that obviosuly had more feeling for Obi Wan than Anakin did. We're not talking about what's right. We're talking about what's right for the character.

Yoda and even Ben didn't have the kind of power over Luke the way the Jedi Council in its entirety had over Luke. 'Anakin was dragged to Geonosis' What, you make it sound like he was handcuffed to the fucking ship. It was very tongue in cheek with Padme all but winking at Anakin and saying "Well I guess you're going to have to protect me no matter where I go, huh?" I didn't see the ball and chain strapped to Anakin's ankle, and he grudgingly accepted the Council's reprimand to stay out of it. In fact, it was Padme who was the rebellious one. And he smiled when she gave him the chance to flip the finger at the Council.

All of that does not change the fact that if Padme said "You're right we're going to stay." he stays put. He did not make the decision. She did. He had no power in that scene at all. There was no consequence to that action when you have it watered down by Padme. Imagine on Dagobah if Ben's Ghost winks and nods at Luke and says "I can't help you if you chose to confront Vader but I'm going to Bespin."

Anakin did the right thing but the wrong thing for his character. He spent the entirety of AOTC disobeying orders, arguing with Obi Wan at one point he needed to be threatened with expulsion from the Order to stop being rebellious. That was AFTER his what you call MATURE decision on Tatooine to sit and wait so how much did he mature then? He seems to be more than willing to let Obi Wan die but if it was mommy and Padme - two women he only knew for far less time than Obi Wan whom he spent his childhood and young adult life with living and fighting together - he will throw all caution to the wind. Care to explain the maturity in that?

Are you nuts?

Obiwan is a trained Jedi Master, the guy who's been with for 10 years, who he knows is good in a fight and who knows can handle himself. Padme is a girl senator who's in the middle of a warzone who he's got a hardon for.

He was still a trained Jedi Master when he fell into that nest of gundarks and that didn't stop Anakin from diving in there to save him.

He was a trained Jedi master on Coruscant and Anakin didn't stay behind to hang out with Padme. He rushed out to save him.

It doesn't matter whether the guy can take care of himself. Obi Wan could have taken a breather while Qui Gon was fighting Maul "Hell Qui Gon is one of the best deulists in the Order, he can take care of himself" This is a man that he says is like a father to him. We see none of that in the movies.

Leaving aside the fact that rationally you wouldn't expect her to be handle herself, she also had no place on the battlefield - given this, he ALSO had strong feelings for her, feelings the Jedi never taught him how to deal with, feelings he can't control, feelings that overpower him. Place yourself in his shoes, replace Padme with your daughter. Is he being a whiny brat for ordering the ship down? How much would you be PISSED OFF at the motherfucker who told you to "STFU, n00b, and do your duty."

Padme was not his daughter. He knew her for all of a week total time and before that a few days as an 8 yo? There's a WORLD of difference between a child parent relationship and some chick you're digging on.

And Obi Wan did teach him how to deal with those feelings, his mom was considered something that will pass in time. Whether that is a shitty way to approach attachment and human emotion (IMO it certainly is) thats still evidence that Anakin was taught how to try and cope.

My criticism of his character (including whinage) development was focussed on his refusal to go save Obi Wan. My criticism of that scene on the LAAT is that it is another exmaple of his rebellious attitude. As a Jedi he is supposed to listen to his master. The only time Obi Wan spoke back to Qui Gon was when Qui Gon's decisions were placing him in danger (ie. against the council) But when Qui Gon said jump Obi Wan said "How high"

In fact she goes down in danger and he immediately wants to throw the mission out the window. Obi Wan is in danger on Geonosis and he wants to hang out on Tatooine. (Yes yes, thank Padme he didn't) Any particular reason why Padme rates being drubbed out of the Order and Obi Wan rates obedience?

Leaving this aside and the fact he reacted emotionally, when Obi-wan chastises him for it he acquiesces. Again, showing maturity. What, he can't yell a bit over his lover quite possibly being seriously injured, and THEN 'come to his senses'? "She would do her duty." As he would. I can't BELIEVE you think he's being immature or a whiny brat. Or compare this to "Aw but I was going down to Toshe Station to pick up some power converters." Christ Luke was ten times more whiny than Anakin was. You think Anakin was WORSE? Unbelievable.

Sure, Luke was a whiney bitch but he grows up throughout three movies. Anakin was a horrible child actor in the first movie and a whiney twat in the second. Now he's going to be a murderous bastard in the last movie....when exactly did I get a chance to like him? To give a shit that he fell?

Luke CHOSE to go and went of his own volition. Anakin chose NOT to go and dragged there by Padme who made the decision for him. I fail to see the parallel.

They both should have listened to their masters. They both went because they had more recklessness than good sense. Anakin didn't get 'dragged along' by Padme, anymore than Luke got 'dragged along' by the Force vision. Both turned out to be useless to the final result anyway. Both went because they had strong feelings for a friend or friends that were in jeopardy. Both were maimed as a result, and bore those scars as reminders, and BOTH had to be rescued. Both did the wrong thing that was 'right for the character'.

The parallel is there.

Once again if Padme states "You're right, we're not going." Anakin stays put. There was no decision made on his part other than go along with her but the power, the impetus, the prime mover of that scene is Padme and it robbed Anakin of any kind of power, development and display of bonding between Anakin and Obi Wan.

And frankly I'm getting very tired of people stating that "oh nos you hate the prequels so what you say is biased and we can just point that out with cute rolly eyes and the bad writing and plot holes will go away."

And frankly I'm getting very tired of hearing people state that the prequels have poor character development when they don't have the character development THEY want.

I'm glad you developed the mutant gene for telepathy. I didn't want Obi Wan to be a padawan in TPM, I didn't want Anakin to be a child in TPM. In terms of character development what I WANT is to believe that this is a father son or at least best friend relationship between these two men. I don't care how its portrayed in the sense of whether its through their trading quips (Han and Luke) Wisdom being handed down (Obi Wan and Luke) Homoerotic love (Chewbacca and Han) or what have you.

Wanting implies that I have something in mind on how it should be done. Thats not the case but I do want a style and process that worked in the OT. For all of Luke's whining in ANH there was no doubt that he and Ben shared something quiet and special. GL accomplished in 1/3 of a movie what he has not been able to accomplish in 2 movies.

What I AM saying is that I'm not buying what we have seen as showing us a father son or best friend relationship.

First, you say he SHOULD have gone after Obi-wan on Geonsosis. No, he shouldn't, in the same way Luke shouldn't have gone to Bespin. In the same way no-one should recklessly jump into the frying pan even if it's for good intentions. But this doesn't matter, and its a point that's dumb anyway, because Anakin DID go to Geonosis. And no, he wasn't 'dragged there by Padme kicking and screaming' - it was tongue in cheek, and she facilitated his rebellion. Obviously their relationship had also grown to the point where she felt like breaking the rules for him. But whatever.

He didn't feel like breaking the rules for Obi Wan. Simple as that. He may have winked winkled and nudged nudged but SHE made the decision not he. She had the power in that process and not he.

Second, you say he's 'such an evil little snot that he doesn't' - except that he DOES. He was reluctant to go because he had been immediately chastised by Mace Windu. He wanted to go, but he's still a padawan, not a Knight. He doesn't have autonomy. He's not like Luke, who had to take care of himself for most of his life. He's always been under the wing of a Jedi master or the council itself. This is a direct contrast to Anakin and Luke's characters and highlights their differences. This is clearly represented in the films, and in this sentence you misrepresent AOTC. Anakin an evil little snot? I got the impression from the movie that he was a good kid at heart, or his heart was in the right place, but he just didn't have the necessary guidance. Why was he 'evil' for not flipping the finger to his boss and telling him to go shove a power coupling up his arse? Would you do that to your boss? To your parents?

Hmmm....a good kid that slaughters women and children. I think you need to rethink that statement.

He was evil in my opinion because he turned his back on his master. He spent 1/3 of the movie on the hunt for his mom, putting Padme at risk, his own Jedi hood at risk, slaughtering an entire village of relative innocents in the process then later BLAMING Obi Wan for being a murderous little fuck and then when the time comes for me to go "Yes Anakin, do it you know this time its right. Show me you're not a complete tool."

"No. You heard Master Windu, I'm to stay right here."

Ohhhhh....denied. Nice one there Ani. Glad to know that your mom and a piece of trim you barely know is more important to you than a man you earlier claimed was like a father to you. Christ I'm glad I don't have a son like that.

Obi Wan risked the wrath of the council by demanding to train Anakin - for love of his dead master's final wish. Anakin spit in his face by choosing to follow the council. I'm supposed to like this kid?

Third, you finish by saying 'but that's just horrible character development from GL'. So not only were points #1 and 2 wrong and clearly shown to be that by myself and an even cursory examination of the film, but here you ADMIT your feeling is "Oh it's just another bit of crappy writing, so what can you expect?" Then you have the temerity to jump on my arse when I call you on your prejudice? You're not biased, Stravo. Right. You just don't like the films. Well newsflash, I didn't say you have to like it. But if you're going to criticise the storytelling then make an effort. Calling him 'an evil little snot' and 'the writing is crappy' doesn't exactly show you to be completely objective over the analysis.

So what am I supposed to conclude? Your entire argument consists of points #1, 2, and 3. The first two are shown to be meaningless as they don't conform to whats onscreen. The third shows that you consider 1 and 2 to be another example of bad storytelling - only it's NOT bad storytelling, and I gave the reasons why. So you don't like that GL went A when you wanted him to go B? Or maybe C? So what? Write it differently in Fanfics.

So would you prefer I state that Anakin is just an evil horrible person that I feel little to no sympathy for and feel that the only tragedy in ROTS will be that Obi Wan doesn't kill him instead of beating him? Fine, I will. GL is in no way shape or form at fault for writing an unlikable character to base the tragedy of the fall of a hero on.

[Stofsk]

He argues with Obi Wan in front of their charges about what's implicit in their orders. Obi Wan has to bitch slap him verbally to get him to shut up.

So? He argues with Obi-wan by bringing up a good point: investigation WAS implied in their orders, Obi-wan was being less than honest with Padme and not giving her the full story. Then he backed down when Obi-wan put him in his place.

If he were a rebel he would have said "Whattaya got?"

He argues down Padme in front of the Queen of Naboo. Real diplomat and gentlemen our young Anikan is.

And he's not a diplomat nor gentleman. He saw it like he was being coddled, and his temper got the better of him. She chastised him, and he BACKED DOWN. If he were a rebel, he would have decked Padme and done things his way (like GL wrote in one of the ANH drafts).

He sets up a trap using Padme as bait without Obi Wan's permission.

Shows initiative and Obi-wan didn't scream at him "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?" indeed, Obi-wan took it in stride and agreed with it.

How does this show him as a rebel? Oh wait, it doesn't.

His going off to find mommy putting the senator's life at risk and leaving her alone for about a day with only a cripple and a farmer and his GF as protection. Was it implicit in the Council's orders to leave her completely unproetcted while he went to find mommy?

She let him do it in the first place. He didn't want to abandon the mission but he was torn between the two. Padme heard his pleas and wasn't unsympathetic. She was an 'enabler'.

Placing the mission to capture Dooku at risk twice: First when he first tries to stop the pursuit to get Padme back, only a threat of expulsion snapped him back.

Again, already dealt with. He 'came to his senses' didn't he?

Second disobeying his master's direct orders when attacking Dooku like an idiot.

So he was reckless, not necessarily rebellious.

I'd say that's what we call a history of rebelliousness.

I wouldn't.

So setting up a trap using Padme as bait wihtout telling him and arguing about their mission in front of Padme was all signs of him being a good apprentice before he got out from under Obi Wan's wing?

The first is not the sign of a rebel at all.

The second showed a mild disagreement between the two and tension develop, but he backed down, didn't he? You don't get it, if he was this superrebellious little brat he wouldn't have backed down. He spoke out of turn because he's a padawan. He's not the cutting edge when it comes to subtle negotiations.

Excuse me? He explicitly states he is disobeying the council's command.

So what? The Council didn't tell him to stop. True, he didn't call them either. Big deal.

Hmmm....I have all the examples cited above. He is NOT a good little soldier. He follows his instincts not his orders.

"Trust your instincts" Obi-wan says that... to LUKE.

Jedi are given free range to trust their feelings.

Jumping off of speeders without warning in the middle of a chase,

Which catches the bitch.

setting traps that place their charge in danger without telling his master,

I didn't hear Obi-wan condemn Anakin for that. He seemed to allow it too.

leaving his charge completely alone when he goes off on personal business,

Fantastic, Stravo. Let's have Padme join him on his hunt for the Tusken raiders.

charging Sith lords against his master's orders,

WHAT orders? "You go in high, I go in low" What kind of bullshit is this? That's not an order.

He paid the price for his reckless attack ANYWAY.

trying to override his master's orders and botch the overall goal of capturing Dooku - That was Yoda's over arching order at the Battle of Geonosis -

What are you talking about?

and confronting his master on almost every decision he makes throughout the movie, incuding such nice digs like: "You think your senses are more developed than my own?"

Maybe they were.

If you think that the movie showed Anakin and Obi Wan as having a relationship akin to father and son then fine. I dont happen to agree with that. Look to the OT with two exampled of a father-son like relationship between a padawan and his master: Luke and Yoda. Luke and Obi Wan. If Luke turned against either one and dueled with them that would be tragic. In this instance we can't wait for it.

Obi-wan and Luke was a father-son relationship. Yoda-Luke was sure as shit nowhere near a father son relationship.

NO he doesn't. If Padme said "You're right we'll stay." then end of story Anakin stays put.

And she doesn't. So my point stands.

All of that does not change the fact that if Padme said "You're right we're going to stay." he stays put. He did not make the decision. She did. He had no power in that scene at all. There was no consequence to that action when you have it watered down by Padme. Imagine on Dagobah if Ben's Ghost winks and nods at Luke and says "I can't help you if you chose to confront Vader but I'm going to Bespin."

The way the scene plays out you can tell he wants to go but had his hands immediately tied by the Council. The very POINT of the scene is that he was powerless.

This is a man that he says is like a father to him. We see none of that in the movies.

You just gave examples of Anakin saving or rushing to his master's aid. Certainly speaks of a bond between them, in my book.

Padme was not his daughter. He knew her for all of a week total time and before that a few days as an 8 yo? There's a WORLD of difference between a child parent relationship and some chick you're digging on.

Oh fine, the point I was trying to make is put yourself in his shoes. Someone you've fallen in love with has just been injured. Wouldn't you want to save her?

And Obi Wan did teach him how to deal with those feelings,

What a crock. He didn't teach him how to deal with love, attachments or grief. All three of which are relevant to what happens to Anakin.

his mom was considered something that will pass in time. Whether that is a shitty way to approach attachment and human emotion (IMO it certainly is) thats still evidence that Anakin was taught how to try and cope.

In a very banal and trivial manner that belies the importance we place on attachments. I blame the Jedi Order for that.

My criticism of his character (including whinage) development was focussed on his refusal to go save Obi Wan.

WHAT refusal? Did he order Padme away from the flight controls? Did he 'saber it so they would be stranded on Tattooine? NO. He got into the copilot chair. Your criticism is bunk because Anakin didn't flip the council a bird and jump into the chair like John Wayne.

My criticism of that scene on the LAAT is that it is another exmaple of his rebellious attitude.

And I counter by pointing out he acquiesces ANYWAY. He knows he must do his duty. Why should he have to like it?

As a Jedi he is supposed to listen to his master. The only time Obi Wan spoke back to Qui Gon was when Qui Gon's decisions were placing him in danger (ie. against the council)

So what? Obi-wan is a different character to Anakin. And he was much older than Anakin was relative to his relationship with his master at the time. Obi-wan in TPM was 25, meaning he's progressed past puberty. Anakin is still a teenager.

In fact she goes down in danger and he immediately wants to throw the mission out the window.

And he comes to his SENSES. "She would do her duty." And so will he. But he doesn't have to LIKE it. Why should he? The girl of his dreams may possibly be dead or dying on some alien shithole backwater world. I'd want to put the ship down too.

Obi Wan is in danger on Geonosis and he wants to hang out on Tatooine. (Yes yes, thank Padme he didn't)

Missing the point AGAIN. Anakin has been consistently shown to follow orders even when he doesn't like them. When he lets his temper go he gets chastised for it. Here Mace Windu ordered him to his face to stay put. So he complies, initially. What the hell is so wrong with that?

Any particular reason why Padme rates being drubbed out of the Order and Obi Wan rates obedience?

Because he's thinking with his cock? Is this a serious question?

Sure, Luke was a whiney bitch but he grows up throughout three movies. Anakin was a horrible child actor in the first movie and a whiney twat in the second. Now he's going to be a murderous bastard in the last movie....when exactly did I get a chance to like him? To give a shit that he fell?

You haven't seen the last movie so don't prejeduge it.

As for TPM, yes I agree with you Jake Lloyd was horribly miscast.

As for AOTC, he wasn't a whiny twat. Or if he did whine it could possibly be because he was being treated like a child and he was whining about that. Nevertheless he still did what he was told to do.

"Follow my lead." "You will learn your place, young one" "Come to your senses!" "Stay with the Senator."

He takes it all. He's a Padawan and he listens to his masters, even when he doesn't understand why. When he rebels it's out of desire for autonomy. How is this a bad character development?

Once again if Padme states "You're right, we're not going." Anakin stays put.

But she didn't. So my point still stands.

There was no decision made on his part other than go along with her but the power, the impetus, the prime mover of that scene is Padme and it robbed Anakin of any kind of power, development and display of bonding between Anakin and Obi Wan.

Why? Did you not consider the possibility that Padme might have been acting as the 'enabler' for him? That she was the 'bridge' that could link them together and strengthen the bond between Anakin and Obi-wan, which is ironic considering the LAAT scene she serves as a wedge to deepen the divide? He's supposed to be powerless and helpless - as is Obi-wan at the moment. Padme was the one with the power, and she moved so that they could be reunited.

I'm glad you developed the mutant gene for telepathy.

You've only said it repeatedly for several years now. I wasn't trying to be a smartass.

I didn't want Obi Wan to be a padawan in TPM, I didn't want Anakin to be a child in TPM. In terms of character development what I WANT is to believe that this is a father son or at least best friend relationship between these two men. I don't care how its portrayed in the sense of whether its through their trading quips (Han and Luke) Wisdom being handed down (Obi Wan and Luke) Homoerotic love (Chewbacca and Han) or what have you.

Ok. WTF.

Homoerotic love between Chewie and Han?

For the record, the interplay between Anakin and Obi-wan strikes me as an 'odd couples' relationship. Two people who like each other but at the same time can't stand each other. There is affection there, but also arguments.

Wanting implies that I have something in mind on how it should be done. Thats not the case but I do want a style and process that worked in the OT.

Why? It would just be same old, same old.

For all of Luke's whining in ANH there was no doubt that he and Ben shared something quiet and special. GL accomplished in 1/3 of a movie what he has not been able to accomplish in 2 movies.

What I AM saying is that I'm not buying what we have seen as showing us a father son or best friend relationship.

Obviously I disagree.

He didn't feel like breaking the rules for Obi Wan. Simple as that.

Balderdash. He did break the rules for Obi-wan. She was the enabler in the scene, but only because she took the decision out of his hands immediately and didn't argue over it 'in committee'.

Thought experiment: let's say she didn't immediately turn the keys in the ignition and started the ship up. Lets say they argued over whether they could go to Geonosis. Maybe the scene plays out longer or whatever. You're of the mind that he would still respect the council's orders? Because I don't get that at all. He doesn't order her to stop the ship or put it down. He smiles and climbs into the copilot seat.

Now you say "She had the power in the scene." I say: EXACTLY. She's the one who MUST have the power in the scene. Because both Anakin and Obi-wan are helpless: Obi is a prisoner, Anakin has been ordered to stay put. They both need to be with each other, but they can't do it. If Anakin disobeyed the Council openly, he would have been punished. What you're saying is this is acceptable. I say it's not. If Anakin flipped the bird off to Mace and went to Geonosis anyway, he'd be in trouble after the day's events had come and gone. Obi-wan would be 10x more embarrassed at his wayward Padawan because not only did he DEFY the council but he also put himself and the Senator at risk. This to you is BETTER?

But the way it turns out is Padme made the decision FOR him. Anakin saves face. You make it sound like Anakin is some evil snot for not rushing to Geonosis - he had just been ORDERED to stay put. Defiance is not tolerated easily in the Jedi order. Anakin makes an innocuous comment to Obi-wan in front of civilians, and the latter rebukes him and humiliates him "You will know your place!"

You say there's no character development. There's your development, right there. He goes from the start of the film following Obi-wan's lead and apologising and saying "I try to do better, Master." "Yes master" and so on. Through the course of the film he bit by bit gains autonomy until at the very end its to the point of recklessness. Then he learns that recklessness costs him an arm. You see it as 'whiny brat gets what he deserved'.

Hmmm....a good kid that slaughters women and children. I think you need to rethink that statement.

Not at all. They were all combatants. Everything we've been told about the Tuskens is that they're brutal, savage fucks. The children grow up to become like the adults. The women are no different from the men, just because they have a vagina instead of a penis doesn't mean they didn't participate in the raids. They could be like the Fremen of DUNE, legitamate targets.

Anakin was a good kid. He then went insane for a brief amount of time. He felt bad about it though. He hated them. They murdered and tortured his mother. He killed them out of revenge, out of fury.

Welcome to the human race. It ain't pretty.

He was evil in my opinion because he turned his back on his master.

And as I've laboured to point out, he actually didn't turn his back on his master.

He spent 1/3 of the movie on the hunt for his mom, putting Padme at risk, his own Jedi hood at risk, slaughtering an entire village of relative innocents

The same innocents who were happy with torturing a middle aged woman for several weeks? Yeah, really innocent.

in the process then later BLAMING Obi Wan for being a murderous little fuck

FOR HOLDING HIM BACK!

"Dreams pass in time." EXCEPT IT WASN"T A FUCKING DREAM. It was precog, telling him or warning him someone close to his heart was in danger - funny that, his mum was busy being tortured on Tattooine. Obi-wan coldly told him where to stick it.

In a very real sense, Obi-wan and the Jedi Order as a whole were to blame for what happened at the Tusken village.

"No. You heard Master Windu, I'm to stay right here."

You see it as a character flaw for him to follow his orders. Except you don't quite get it, he had been chastised by the Jedi Council. This isn't Mace having a friendly chat and telling Anakin "Oh by the way love, just stick there will you, no need to get involved what." (yeah I gave Mace a nasally British accent, so sue me)

Mace wasn't having a conversation with Anakin. He was TELLING HIM WHAT TO DO. Stay the FUCK there. DON'T get involved. PROTECT the Senator.

Ohhhhh....denied. Nice one there Ani.

Your blame is misdirected. Mace gave him an order. An order Anakin later disobeyed in the span of several second after communication was terminated. Just gloss over that though. I'm sure it doesn't mean anything. I mean, you're upset he didn't IMMEDIATELY leap into the chair while telling Mace to suck his fat one.

Glad to know that your mom and a piece of trim you barely know is more important to you than a man you earlier claimed was like a father to you. Christ I'm glad I don't have a son like that.

Wow.

If you prevented your son from seeing his dying mother in time? That's... harsh. That really is. And the son still forgives you, because you're in danger too and instead of staying away like your friends have told him to, he comes to your aid anyway?

Obi Wan risked the wrath of the council by demanding to train Anakin - for love of his dead master's final wish. Anakin spit in his face by choosing to follow the council. I'm supposed to like this kid?

Except he didn't spit in his face. He disobeyed the order anyway.

So would you prefer I state that Anakin is just an evil horrible person that I feel little to no sympathy for and feel that the only tragedy in ROTS will be that Obi Wan doesn't kill him instead of beating him? Fine, I will. GL is in no way shape or form at fault for writing an unlikable character to base the tragedy of the fall of a hero on.

What's your problem? The interplay between the two characters is clearly different from what was in the OT. Why should we have old repainted as new?

An 'evil horrible' person? For what? Following orders? I can say that Obi-wan was a horrible person for not letting Anakin go see his mum. I can say the Jedi are evil for their no attachments policy.

He was evil for what, killing a village of murdering psychopaths? He was horrible for what, not immediately jumping into the copilot seat (oh he delayed for 10 whole seconds! The prick)?

[Stofsk]

Does the Order turn a blind eye to this situation or is it an acceptable Attachment?

It is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. BTW, the Dark Woman considers all attachments to be a darkside thing, and she personifies the archetype of 'hateful bitch' in the comics.

Did you see the Tales where Vader owns her ass? I wanted to cheer. He kicked the shit out of her.

Fuck yes. He had some trouble in the beginning IIRC, she was no slouch. But in the end, that bitch was toast.

[Crown]

He argues with Obi Wan in front of their charges about what's implicit in their orders. Obi Wan has to bitch slap him verbally to get him to shut up.

So? He argues with Obi-wan by bringing up a good point: investigation WAS implied in their orders, Obi-wan was being less than honest with Padme and not giving her the full story. Then he backed down when Obi-wan put him in his place.

If he were a rebel he would have said "Whattaya got?"

Don't be dense.

He contradicted and argued with his master infront of outsiders. Everyone in that scene was clearly uncomfortable by that little pissy exhibition by Anakin - including Padme. Infact it took her little careful diplomatic response to settle the issue.

[Stofsk]

I'm going to apologise for my rash comments before, about accusing Stravo of prejudice against the prequels. I don't mind discussing the characterisation of Anakin, and all that, but I don't want to do it in a hostile manner, and I precipitated that with my roll-eyes emoting. Obviously we disagree about the quality of the characterisation, but that's no reason to start slinging mud, and I did that. So I'm sorry.

Don't be dense.

He contradicted and argued with his master infront of outsiders. Everyone in that scene was clearly uncomfortable by that little pissy exhibition by Anakin - including Padme. Infact it took her little careful diplomatic response to settle the issue.

True. He does have temper troubles and is rebellious. For some reason I couldn't see the latter before.

I just don't see why he's such an evil prick because of it. He's young and stupid, yes. And Obiwan puts him in his place. But why is this a bad thing?

[Crown]

Don't be dense.

He contradicted and argued with his master infront of outsiders. Everyone in that scene was clearly uncomfortable by that little pissy exhibition by Anakin - including Padme. Infact it took her little careful diplomatic response to settle the issue.

True. He does have temper troubles and is rebellious. For some reason I couldn't see the latter before.

I just don't see why he's such an evil prick because of it. He's young and stupid, yes. And Obiwan puts him in his place. But why is this a bad thing?

I believe that scene just underlines Stravo's point that Anakin already was rebellious - and then suddenly deciding to become goody lightsabres when his master's life was in danger was piss poor (not that I fully agree with Stravo, but I understand what he's trying to say).

As for Anakin being an evil prick, well the evil will be revealed in RotS, as for prick, how about whinny, scumsucking, good-for-nothing, selfish, ungrateful little mouth-running dickweed everytime I hear him say; 'It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's holding me back!'.

Pray tell; how exactly is Obi-Wan 'holding him back'? What, is he suggesting that Anakin have Beny Hill music in the background when he tries to concentrate to use the Force Make flatulent noises everytime Anakin starts practicing with his lightsabre What

[Stofsk]

I believe that scene just underlines Stravo's point that Anakin already was rebellious - and then suddenly deciding to become goody lightsabres when his master's life was in danger was piss poor (not that I fully agree with Stravo, but I understand what he's trying to say).

But the relationship is different from what we've seen before. Anakin is arrogant, and this was cause for concern from Obi-wan. Anakin probably thinks he should be treated like an equal, irrespective of whether or not he IS an equal, but that's the attitude he has.

As for Anakin being an evil prick, well the evil will be revealed in RotS, as for prick, how about whinny, scumsucking, good-for-nothing, selfish, ungrateful little mouth-running dickweed everytime I hear him say; 'It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's holding me back!'.

His mother had just died at the hands of murderous savages. Now, he wasn't in the best possible frame of mind over the matter, but when he says "It's all Obi-wan's fault. He's holding me back!" I took it to mean "He WAS holding me back!" as in, if Obi-wan had let him visit his mum he might have been able to save her.

Seriously. It's easy to roll your eyes at him and call him a whiny bitch and "Grow up you little snot" but his mother had just been murdered. You don't think rationally so soon after such an event. Most people are in a state of shock, and say all sorts of shit. Does that make sense?

[Crown]

But the relationship is different from what we've seen before. Anakin is arrogant, and this was cause for concern from Obi-wan. Anakin probably thinks he should be treated like an equal, irrespective of whether or not he IS an equal, but that's the attitude he has.

Ooooookay, what?

What are you saying here? Are you arguing a point or what?

Stravo brought it up showing Anakin's rebelliousness. You said 'nah-ah'. I said don't be dense. You conceeded, asked a question that wasn't related to the point, and now bring up this?!?!?! It's 2:40am man, get some sleep 'cause you're not making any sense anymore.

So what if their relationship is 'different from what we've seen before'?!?! Isn't that the point (Stravo's) in that Anakin is a little rebel in this scene, and not in the one where his Master's life is in danger - the same Master Anakin refers to as his Father?

And another thing, you're wrong about Obi-Wan agreeing with Anakin in using Padme as bait, he didn't - he called it too risky - and then they got caught up in the conversation.

His mother had just died at the hands of murderous savages. Now, he wasn't in the best possible frame of mind over the matter, but when he says "It's all Obi-wan's fault. He's holding me back!" I took it to mean "He WAS holding me back!" as in, if Obi-wan had let him visit his mum he might have been able to save her.

Seriously. It's easy to roll your eyes at him and call him a whiny bitch and "Grow up you little snot" but his mother had just been murdered. You don't think rationally so soon after such an event. Most people are in a state of shock, and say all sorts of shit. Does that make sense?

I don't give a shit. He was acting that way all through the movie, so what if this was the first time he vocalised his thoughts clearly? He certainly believed it. Then and now.

And fuck it, he accuese Obi-Wan of holding him back (or in general being a bad mentor) in the scene where Padme is backing her bags;

ANAKIN
Master Obi-Wan manages not to see
it...

PADMÉ
Mentors have a way of seeing more
of our faults than we would like.
It's the only way we grow.

ANAKIN
Don't get me wrong... Obi-Wan is
a great mentor. As wise as Master
Yoda and as powerful as Master
Windu. I am truly thankful to be
his apprentice. Only... although
I'm a Padawan learner, in some
ways... a lot of ways... I'm ahead
of him. I'm ready for the trials.
I know I am! He knows it too. He
believes I'm too unpredictable...
Other Jedi my age have gone
through the trials and made it...
I know I started my training
late... but he won't let me move
on.

PADMÉ
That must be frustrating.

ANAKIN
It's worse... he's overly
critical. He never listens! He
just doesn't understand! It's not
fair!