How Powerful Were The Vong?

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Post by Ghost Rider »

unbeataBULL wrote:Wait, the Vong already had spies and such in the galaxy at that time, correct? Wouldn't they have realized that they were in for a massive ass-raping if they went head-on against the Empire? So wouldn't they have waited for the already old Emporer and his aprentice Vader to die a mortal death? Then, in that period of instability, they could launch the attack. That would make it seem like the fall of the Empire was inevitable, with the death of Palpatine, and eventually, Vader.
They did and feared the fact that a mortal death may have met nothing since the Empire had a strong central leadership.

So if they wait until Palps death(clone or otherwise) naturally. What then? Palps if not having the clones, would have insured an heir who was just as capable.

The problem is that Palpatine within the EU had died before he could take any such prepartions which is why he wanted Luke.

The Vong feared the Empire because it was lead by a single being, not just the fact the Emperor lead it. Thus saying all the Vong had to do was wait them out, is akin to saying if Nazi Germany conquered the World...all one would have to do is wait until the death of the current leader. This presumes that said leader does not have a contingency to insure his legacy continues past his death.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Oh yeah, the clones...of course.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Ghost Rider wrote:
unbeataBULL wrote:Wait, the Vong already had spies and such in the galaxy at that time, correct? Wouldn't they have realized that they were in for a massive ass-raping if they went head-on against the Empire? So wouldn't they have waited for the already old Emporer and his aprentice Vader to die a mortal death? Then, in that period of instability, they could launch the attack. That would make it seem like the fall of the Empire was inevitable, with the death of Palpatine, and eventually, Vader.
They did and feared the fact that a mortal death may have met nothing since the Empire had a strong central leadership.

So if they wait until Palps death(clone or otherwise) naturally. What then? Palps if not having the clones, would have insured an heir who was just as capable.

The problem is that Palpatine within the EU had died before he could take any such prepartions which is why he wanted Luke.

The Vong feared the Empire because it was lead by a single being, not just the fact the Emperor lead it. Thus saying all the Vong had to do was wait them out, is akin to saying if Nazi Germany conquered the World...all one would have to do is wait until the death of the current leader. This presumes that said leader does not have a contingency to insure his legacy continues past his death.
Palpatine actually designed the Empire to collapse without him; an apprentice as just a loyal executor yielding the power of the Sith.
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Post by Alyeska »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine actually designed the Empire to collapse without him; an apprentice as just a loyal executor yielding the power of the Sith.
By doing so he forces those whom he gives power too to remain loyal to him. The likes of Tarkin and the various Grand Moffs and military commanders and Dark Jedi at Palpatines command had to toe the line with him to maintain their power. Only two personalities within the Empire could have potentialy removed Palpatine from power and assumed control, and Palpatine took efforts to prevent this. He had Vader under surveliance and had already evaluated Thrawn and given him a mission. Tarkin happily took the Emperors granted power and knew he couldn't take control. Same with the grand admirals. The likes of Issard and others of her ilk were just too inept to remove the Emperor.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

There's no way Thrawn could have challenged the Emperor.
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Post by Alyeska »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's no way Thrawn could have challenged the Emperor.
Politicaly, no. But militarily, I would say he had a chance at it. Just look at what Zarrin almost acomplished. Thrawn could easily have setup a situation better then that. Just kill the old coot and assume command of the military. Thrawn would probably even have granted political control to Vader provided Vader stayed out of military affairs.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Alyeska wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's no way Thrawn could have challenged the Emperor.
Politicaly, no. But militarily, I would say he had a chance at it. Just look at what Zarrin almost acomplished. Thrawn could easily have setup a situation better then that. Just kill the old coot and assume command of the military. Thrawn would probably even have granted political control to Vader provided Vader stayed out of military affairs.
Thrawn clearly loathed Vader from his incessant digging and unfavorable comparisons between himself and Vader. Its just silly; Thrawn is not popular with the fleet...or the court...or the governors....or the people. He has no ability to launch a coup'd'etat. None.
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Post by Coalition »

One thing the Vong had going for them early on, is that their technology (biology) was so different. Their fighters had the sensor signatureof a rock, so most combat sensors aren't designed to even report them, let alone lock on.

That could have been the way to run the series. The Vong had an advantage, the NR (Jedi or even Empire spies) develop a countermeasure, and the Vong adapt to that as well, or pull out another trick.

The Vong were adaptive as well, developing the Voxxyn to hunt Jedi (geneered vornskr, which hunt force users). those buggers had massive regeneration, poison tail spike, acidic blood and spit, sonic screeches, and if you cut them the blood would also let loose toxic gasses so you couldn't breathe well. The back had poisonous spines, so it was protected there as well.

Unfortunately, there was only one location breeding them, so once that location was destroyed, the supply was lost.

They were a different opponent, using new technology and numbers to fight. But once the technology was allowed for, and their numbers began to dwindle, they were toast.
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Post by mr friendly guy »

unbeataBULL wrote:
EDIT: Btw, I liked the Vong purely for their ability to kick Jedi ass. I didn't like how the Force made someone practically invincible. Or maybe I'm just bitter about Jango Fett dying so easily. :evil:
So did they beat the Jedi one on one? Was this a general thing, or did character shielded Jedi ie Luke still managed to beat them. I know from the first book Mara Jade defeated the Vong spy.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Someone around here said they beat Jedi one-on-one in mano-a-mano combat. I assume that applied only for the higher-ranking, more skilled and more bio-engineered Vong.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and does anyone have a pic of a Voxxyn (sp?)?
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Post by Praxis »

mr friendly guy wrote:
unbeataBULL wrote:
EDIT: Btw, I liked the Vong purely for their ability to kick Jedi ass. I didn't like how the Force made someone practically invincible. Or maybe I'm just bitter about Jango Fett dying so easily. :evil:
So did they beat the Jedi one on one? Was this a general thing, or did character shielded Jedi ie Luke still managed to beat them. I know from the first book Mara Jade defeated the Vong spy.

Depends which Vong, really.

Standard warriors the Jedi beat one on one, sometimes, just with sheer skill, but other times no...(remember, the first book really made the Vong to be pathetic)

In the second book we had two Vong (one of which was a noob, basicly- a young, inexperienced warrior) vs one jedi with CHARACTER SHIELDS, Corran Horn; Corran killed the young warrior early on and had a 1v1 with the second warrior.


Corran LOST. While he essentially severed his opponents leg, the Vong managed to paralyze/poison him in the process. Lucky for him that he was able to use the force to make a pack of local predators jump on the Vong just before he lost consciousness and another Jedi pulled him out of the wreckage, but in a 2v1 the two Vong beat him.


Corran later had a 1v1 with a Vong bigshot, and killed him but not after receiving a gut wound and barely surviving.

The Jedi got their butts kicked by some of the higher ranking Vong...Wurth Skidder got his arm cut off in the beginning of the battle on Ithor.

Luke was the only Jedi that basicly never got a scratch through the entire NJO (until the end). His first fight with the Vong was sweet in Dark Tide 2; dual weilding lightsabers while using the force to batter them with rocks. He took out three of them, and THAT tired him out.

Luke nearly died after his one vs one duel with the Vong leader though.
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Post by Darth Yoshi »

Jacen also fought Onimi, who I believe had the ability to use the Force. I forget how he won, though.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Jacen liquified him or something.
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Post by Perseid »

Jacen also fought Onimi, who I believe had the ability to use the Force. I forget how he won, though.
Jacen liquified him or something.
Jacen won by letting Onimi attack him using self created poisons, which after a short while affected Onimi.

To answer the OP the Vong varied in terms of how powerful they were, i.e. how high up in rank they were, how many modifications they had done to themselves, and how psychotic they were.

The psychotic idea comes down to the fact that all Vong above Commander were willing to loose their lives and the honor of their Domain to kick the shit out of one of the jedi
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Post by Thanas »

Nom Anor tried to manipulate the empire in Crimson Empire II, and managed to throw it into chaos. (Although that was probably not his intention, Iirc he tried to control the Empire through his puppet Carivus).

So I see no reason why the Vong wouldn't have been able to manipulate two or three moffs into helping them. Not that it would make a difference, since this might buy the Vong some buildup time, but surely not enough.
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Post by hypernova »

im probably going to retalk about some stuff but heck im not reading the entire thread.

Vong Power:

Began as little but had element of surprise and no-one had knowledge of how to combat them, then they came in in large droves.

from estimates they were probably about twice the total military strength of the entire SW galaxy. but by the time they had everyone inside the galaxy they already had taken over about 60% of the galaxy. by that point over half their military was destroyed. at which point the combined degraded total military of the NR(i forget new name, Gov change after fall of coruscant), imperial remnant, Hapans cluster, and whoever happens to still be alive at this point.

World Ships:
earlier statement about world ship being bigger then the Death star, incorrect. the average size is probably about 80 kilometers diameter, keep in mind these are disks not spheres therefore even with same diameter means still about 1/3 mass. the smallest being about 40k i think and the newwest one the were building was going to be about 240k in diameter, but the vong stated that this was by far the biggest they would have ever created.

Vong Soldiers:
I believe i heard a correct statement earlier, only the best vong warroirs with biological implants matched the jedi. but again we must take into account several things.

1. element of surprise and unknown.
2. the Warriors are of a warrior cast meaning the eat sleep and train train train, there isnt anything else they do or think but to become the best weapon they can. no one in the SW galaxy does that.
3. however popular lightsaber v lightsaber fights are or lightsaber vs long object that doesnt get destroyed fighting sabers. these events were a high irregularity for jedi, what the train almost completly is combat against projectiles and vibro* equiped peoples.

a good example about how jedi really are is ganner an ordinary knight kills off over a thousand vong by himself gaurding the entrance to the the world mind thingy place(you'd have to read the story to understand). they came by 3's and 4's even. repeat ordinary jedi.

another key thing is that since the vong cant be sensed by jedi in the force their moves cant be anticipated meaning unless the jedi already knows how to fight superbly without the force their dead.

NJO storyline:
I actually didnt enjoy the last half of the series, the authors were unimaginative and had a very sparse concept of the force.

they screwed the whole jedi aspect up, i fricken hated the dilema they wrote for jaina and jacen. they made them both look like stupid little kids who had no idea what to do and no concept of the force.

i also dont like how they use ISD's as your basic starship, those are extremely exspensive ships. the really really large fleet in ROTJ only consisted of about 40 ISD's or so plus 1 SSD. but here in NJO we have huge battles with 1000's of ships ISD size or bigger, im sry but that just doesnt fit into realistic tactics.
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Post by The Original Nex »

i also dont like how they use ISD's as your basic starship, those are extremely exspensive ships. the really really large fleet in ROTJ only consisted of about 40 ISD's or so plus 1 SSD. but here in NJO we have huge battles with 1000's of ships ISD size or bigger, im sry but that just doesnt fit into realistic tactics
That makes TONS of sense. ISDs are your basic stock Destroyer, by all rights it should be the most common ship in the fleet. The authors got that right, not wrong.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Didn't Anakin get really good and fighting Vong after a while?
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Post by generator_g1 »

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Didn't Anakin get really good and fighting Vong after a while?
He had his Vongsense which was given to him by the lambent crystal that powered his lightsaber while undercover on Yavin 4 to rescue Tahiri.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Anakin may have been good but towards the end Jacen was better. In Traitor the Vong torture him untill he's almost one of them, in doing that he gained the ability to actually manipulate and operate Vong biotechnology.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

The Original Nex wrote:That makes TONS of sense. ISDs are your basic stock Destroyer, by all rights it should be the most common ship in the fleet. The authors got that right, not wrong.
I thought it was thousands of ships, not thousands of SDs. They didn't get over the SDs are uber disease overnight.
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Post by hypernova »

in the empires height they had about 50,000 ISD's yes but the empire was in control of about 250,000 some odd systems thats 1 ISD per 5 systems if you dont include battle fleets such as vaders.

you have your cruisers, you frigates, your corvettes, and others

in places such as the outrim your flag ship for an entire sector might have been only a cruiser, and a few other frigates and corvettes to help patrol.

near the core you's have about 1 ISD per system or so with accomadating smaller ships. fleets where made up an average of 4-5 ISD's with exception to when a grand moff, vader or the Emporer said otherwise. vaders fleet was about (im not sure) 12 ISD's with a SSD, and in ROTJ the FleetS with the DS was about say 80-100 ISD's.

in the NJO they talked fleets in numbers of, when in big battle that is, of 1000's of SD's and/or Destroyer Analogs
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Post by Ghost Rider »

hypernova wrote:in the empires height they had about 50,000 ISD's yes but the empire was in control of about 250,000 some odd systems thats 1 ISD per 5 systems if you dont include battle fleets such as vaders.
1 Million systems.

Number of ISDs is rated currently at 25K ISDs. Some figure higher on basis of DS.
you have your cruisers, you frigates, your corvettes, and others

in places such as the outrim your flag ship for an entire sector might have been only a cruiser, and a few other frigates and corvettes to help patrol.

near the core you's have about 1 ISD per system or so with accomadating smaller ships. fleets where made up an average of 4-5 ISD's with exception to when a grand moff, vader or the Emporer said otherwise. vaders fleet was about (im not sure) 12 ISD's with a SSD, and in ROTJ the FleetS with the DS was about say 80-100 ISD's.

in the NJO they talked fleets in numbers of, when in big battle that is, of 1000's of SD's and/or Destroyer Analogs
All of which easily fit given that if you think of the level industry the galaxy had, let alone a cohesive unit.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
The Original Nex wrote:That makes TONS of sense. ISDs are your basic stock Destroyer, by all rights it should be the most common ship in the fleet. The authors got that right, not wrong.
I thought it was thousands of ships, not thousands of SDs. They didn't get over the SDs are uber disease overnight.
Whatever, my point was that thousands of ships (be they ISDs or not) is not at all unreasonable.
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Post by Ender »

hypernova wrote:in the empires height they had about 50,000 ISD's yes but the empire was in control of about 250,000 some odd systems thats 1 ISD per 5 systems if you dont include battle fleets such as vaders.
1 million important systems, 50 million colonies, outposts, settlements, etc.

25,000 Imperator class destroyers, unknown number of other types.
you have your cruisers, you frigates, your corvettes, and others

in places such as the outrim your flag ship for an entire sector might have been only a cruiser, and a few other frigates and corvettes to help patrol.

near the core you's have about 1 ISD per system or so with accomadating smaller ships.
I think the number is more like 24 from the Imperial Sourcebook.
fleets where made up an average of 4-5 ISD's with exception to when a grand moff, vader or the Emporer said otherwise. vaders fleet was about (im not sure) 12 ISD's with a SSD, and in ROTJ the FleetS with the DS was about say 80-100 ISD's.
33 Imperator types, one Tector type, one unidentified cruiser, 1 Executor class star dreadnaught.
in the NJO they talked fleets in numbers of, when in big battle that is, of 1000's of SD's and/or Destroyer Analogs
Which is perfectly correct. You do realize that until Revenge of the Sith, the Imperator was the smallest capital warship we had seen in the films, right?

Vong power is hard to estimate. Are we talking firepower? In SbS a whitehot plasma blast vapes a 10 meter chunk of yorik coral, which corresponds to about KT level. Magma missiles depend on how fast they go, but connor pointed out that the KE should be in the double digit MT range if we interperate the crap in the NEGVV the right way.

Hero's trial says they have 1000 of the world ships so far (it says capital ships, but the statement only really makes sense if we assume they are talking the smaller mobile base worldships and not the DS population movers). They have several multikm designs that pack an unknown number of plasma weapons that have an unknown yield. It should be noted that higher end plasma will start to approach cosmic rays in terms of penetration power, which gives them another asset. We have no idea how they generate power of course, so we can't estimate on that. They don't have to worry about refueling the engines, which is a pretty big advantage. They could lose 1000 capital ships and consider it a feint. So they have a sizable navy, but nothing on par with the Empire and probably less then the total size of the Republics forces.

Ground forces seem to be Vong officers, Chazrach NCOs, and those slave thralls as your basic ground troops. I sincerely think the Grand Army of the Republic could have mopped the floor with them.

In the end they tried to take too much too fast and unlike previous wars couldn't use left over infastructure, so they depleted themselves and got bitchslapped.
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