Thermal Detonators (A Hypothesis)

[Praxis]

The EGWT states that thermal detonators offer incredible precision, by allowing an operator to precisely annihilate anything within a fixed radius from the weapon when it goes off while leaving things outside of that radius unscathed. This explanation was supported by Star by Star, when the Jedi infilitration team used the weapons to similar effect.

This description of their operations has long since been dismissed as ridiculous. How can an explosive possibly leave things outside of its blast radius unscathed, while annihilating anything inside of it? The explosion should continue.

It occurred to me, however, that thermal detonators may just operate as advertised. The seismic charges Jango Fett used against Obi-Wan in AotC demonstrate that SW weapons can somehow channel and focus destructive energy. A thermal detonator, then, could be one application of this technology, but instead of creating destruction along a seemingly-infinite plane, it could allow an operator to destroy things in a sphere with a given radius.

Thoughts?

Except we're forgetting superheated air and vaporized metal that was in the sphere of destruction.

[Winston Blake]

OK how about this: it's not really an explosive, but a miniature forcefield generator that, instead of projecting and sustaining a nice flat planar shield, rather goes schizo and produces thousands of tiny powerful shields whizzing around at ungodly speeds and completely shredding anything in the way. It could be designed to only generate this effect within the specified volume, and since it's just cutting everything into tiny pieces there'd be very little explosive vaporisation or shrapnel.

The trick is that you can't use a similarly small, cheap generator to defend against it because a thermal detonator releases all its energy in a extremely short pulse, that's so intense it destroys itself completely in the process (cf flux compression generators). A target would have to keep their shield running for much longer to ensure safety, needing a huge amount of power, and wouldn't want it to utterly burn itself out after a single use.

One problem is the fact that they're called 'thermal' detonators, whereas you might not expect a slice-n-dice forcefield effect to be very thermal. Perhaps it could use a type of forcefield that also happens to put out a lot of heat on contact, like ray shields, or better yet uses both ray and particle shields. Maybe it was originally called an 'athermal detonator' but that was corrupted to 'a thermal detonator' much like 'astigmatism' is often misused as 'a stigmatism'. Or maybe 'thermal detonator' is a synecdoche and one of the critical components is a primary detonator that happens to involve some thermal effect, perhaps even a chemical explosive itself. Considering the energy density is so relatively high (might not be in SW though), a chemical explosive could be what provides the pulsed power by being efficiently converted to run the forcefield-shredder components.

Thoughts?

[Lancer]

or, the term "thermal detonator" could be a holdover term that carries little meaning to the current device, like how turbolasers clearly aren't laser weapons.

[Ender]

Fragmentation shell? Perhaps the relevent mechanical bits are thrown outward and are not destroyed.

If it's been reduced to fragments, it has pretty much been destroyed.

[Diamedes]

Maybe it shunts a certain diameter to hyperspace, and usually the proximity to massive bodies and/or lack of some sort of time dilators ala Saxton tends to destroy the material, or leave targets stranded in hyperspace.

That's just trying to match the description though. The name thermal detonator tends to lessen the chance that hyperspace is the method.

[Shroom Man 777]

The name "turbolaser" also lessens the chance of TLs being particle-based weapons

I concur with the hyperspace idea. Kind of like the Time Displacement thing in the Terminator movies, where a diameter of something from this timeline is swapped for the diameter of another. But in this case, the detonator just shoves the diameter into hyperspace or some other Bad Place where it would be annihilated.

[Enola Straight]

Something similar called a warp bomb is found in the ST novel "Federation".

A high yield explosive is contained within a subspace field generator and is detonated. The energy releasedpowers the generator, which instantlyproduces a spherical warp field which expands faster than light. As the explosive vaporizes the field generator, the warp field collapses, again faster than light, and anything within the field is swept into subspace, leaving a spherical void.

[Sriad]

Thermal detonators are not standard issue equipment--they're highly restricted, even though hand grenades with exotic charges are fairly easy to come by. Thermal detonators are supposed to be military-only, and are presumably quite expensive.

Concurrance. Everyone in Jaba's palace was extremely impressed in RotJ when Leia pulled out her thermal detonater.

I think Winston Blake's explaination fits the TD's described properties the best: sharply defined sphere of destruction in which the TD itself is consumed. The hyperspatial displacement theory seems out of line with the MO of Star Wars weaponry, and an explosion contained by a force field is more complex than simply using a force field to do the damage, and would involve a lot of collateral destruction, especially on the higher settings.

[Captain Cyran]

The name "turbolaser" also lessens the chance of TLs being particle-based weapons

I concur with the hyperspace idea. Kind of like the Time Displacement thing in the Terminator movies, where a diameter of something from this timeline is swapped for the diameter of another. But in this case, the detonator just shoves the diameter into hyperspace or some other Bad Place where it would be annihilated.

But have we ever seen anything like that ever in Star Wars? You'd think if they could miniturize it to the level of a grenade we would see cap-grade of these things being launched and go off before thaey hit shields. Simply put it being a hyperdrive field generator does not fit into the Star Wars universe as I see it, though I could be wrong. The idea of a force field either containing the blast or being the source of the destruction, though tenuous, is possible.

[Shroom Man 777]

*shrugs* It'd be an awesome idea. I'm using it for my universe, an intradimensional displacement field.

[Jay]

Concurrance. Everyone in Jaba's palace was extremely impressed in RotJ when Leia pulled out her thermal detonater.

I don't think the patrons of Jabbas palace were extremely impressed so much as they were shit scared. This is no indication of a weapons rarity or expence. if you pulled a wall-mart own brand, 99cent hand-grenade out in my living room, I'd still crap my pants!

The only person who was impressed was Jabba, and it wasn't at the detonator, it was as the Leia-aliens's 50-pound brass bollocks.

[Sriad]

Concurrance. Everyone in Jaba's palace was extremely impressed in RotJ when Leia pulled out her thermal detonater.

I don't think the patrons of Jabbas palace were extremely impressed so much as they were shit scared. This is no indication of a weapons rarity or expence. if you pulled a wall-mart own brand, 99cent hand-grenade out in my living room, I'd still crap my pants!

The only person who was impressed was Jabba, and it wasn't at the detonator, it was as the Leia-aliens's 50-pound brass bollocks.

They were scared in an impressed way; the thermal detonater was something they were totally unprepared for. If I pulled out a Desert Eagle in your living room and pointed it at you I bet you'd be quite as scared as with a grenade, but if Leia had pulled out a Heavy Repeating Blaster there were a couple dozen guards and assorted low lifes that could have gunned her down.

[The Silence and I]

But that doesn't quite follow, because with the grenade/thermal detonator gunning her down just makes her let go of the button/not turn it off = they all dead. If she had a repeating blaster then gunning her down is much less risky.

[Jay]

They were scared in an impressed way; the thermal detonater was something they were totally unprepared for. If I pulled out a Desert Eagle in your living room and pointed it at you I bet you'd be quite as scared as with a grenade, but if Leia had pulled out a Heavy Repeating Blaster there were a couple dozen guards and assorted low lifes that could have gunned her down

Did you actualy watch the film? When leia pulled out the grenade, 3PO craps himself, Boba Fett goes for his weapon, Jabba laughs and says that he likes hers style. No-one is going 'OMG! She had a Thermal Detonator! w0w she is teh RoXXorz!!!!111!!!!

[Winston Blake]

I don't think their being impressed counts as evidence since appearing frightened and appearing both frightened and impressed are practically impossible to distinguish (especially among various people of a different culture who are also aliens). They're both reactions to a sudden, very unusual and highly threatening situation.

Then the problem is that 'frightened' isn't really more parsimonius than 'frightened and impressed' since both are just subjective descriptions of a particular emotional state. I'd say this event doesn't really mean anything either way.

As for rarity, IIRC one cylindrical TD is stormtrooper standard issue (on the back of practically all their belts) and SW gangsters like the Hutts are powerful enough to have easy access to them. OTOH, for that particular model...

Anyway, MoO seems to have just been saying that we can get away with all this unusual exoticness in the mechanism of a TD since the military can spend as much money as it likes in order to get an edge, so it's not that important.

[Captain Cyran]

*shrugs* It'd be an awesome idea. I'm using it for my universe, an intradimensional displacement field.

It is an awesome idea, and it has been used before (By David Weber). But it doesn't fit with Star Wars tech.

[Darwin]

possible theory on the thermal detonator,

what if the initial reaction didn't destroy the detonator? so you have the detonator project a containment type field, and then emit huge amounts of energy. The discharge hits the field and is reflected back in, and this is what anhiilates the device and drops the field.

[Winston Blake]

possible theory on the thermal detonator,

what if the initial reaction didn't destroy the detonator? so you have the detonator project a containment type field, and then emit huge amounts of energy. The discharge hits the field and is reflected back in, and this is what anhiilates the device and drops the field.

Well you've still got all that energy, superheated gas and possibly shrapnel left after the field drops, so there'd be a lot of secondary damage outside the designated sphere.

[Darwin]

possible theory on the thermal detonator,

what if the initial reaction didn't destroy the detonator? so you have the detonator project a containment type field, and then emit huge amounts of energy. The discharge hits the field and is reflected back in, and this is what anhiilates the device and drops the field.

Well you've still got all that energy, superheated gas and possibly shrapnel left after the field drops, so there'd be a lot of secondary damage outside the designated sphere.

That's right. there'd be damage outside the sphere, and near total destruction inside. would this be inconsistant with text descriptions of the effects?

[Cykeisme]

It's pretty obvious that the reason why Leia used a thermal detonator, and why her use of it put Jabba's court as her mercy, is because the detonation was triggered through a dead-man's switch (release = detonation) OR a ticking timer that had to be deactivated.. or both. The detonator was clearly an analogue with using a hand grenade to the same effect in a present-day Earth situation.

Anyway, I've heard things about thermal detonators having a Class that refers to their yield, with Class A being the most powerful (20 meter radius was it?), and Class E the lowest in yield (2.5 meters or something like that). A while back there was a thread about taking out a Star wars skyscraper with a single Class A TD (something belonging to Xizor I believe). This might be slightly inconsistent with the 20 meter radius idea, although not necessarily so if it destroyed one or more critical support pillars (made of super strong SW material no less). However, I believe the TD was simply tossed down a ventilation shaft or somesuch, not placed precisely, and it was a very large building.

There's also descriptions along the lines of a thermal detonator "a radius damage grenade releasing a barrage of thermal energy capable of disintegrating anything around it", but not saying anything about fixed radius. The term "radius damage" seems to simply indicate that it's not a point-effect weapon. And something about "baradium"?

I have no idea where this information originates though (all second-hand). Wherever it all comes from, is it in the same level of canon as the "fixed radius" idea?

Tbh I hadn't heard of the fixed radius thing till now (as opposed to effects dropping off more or less as per the inverse-square law). As has already been mentioned, it seems improbable for obvious reasons... requiring an explanation besides the first impression that it simply releases a lot of heat.

Edit:

That's right. there'd be damage outside the sphere, and near total destruction inside. would this be inconsistant with text descriptions of the effects?

There wouldn't be a defined border at which the amount of damage suddenly drops off. Even if there was a field that reflected the energy back inward, it would be conserved and would eventually have to go somewhere when the field dropped.. you'd end up with the same effect of there never having had been a field at all.

[Sriad]

They were scared in an impressed way; the thermal detonater was something they were totally unprepared for. If I pulled out a Desert Eagle in your living room and pointed it at you I bet you'd be quite as scared as with a grenade, but if Leia had pulled out a Heavy Repeating Blaster there were a couple dozen guards and assorted low lifes that could have gunned her down

Did you actualy watch the film? When leia pulled out the grenade, 3PO craps himself, Boba Fett goes for his weapon, Jabba laughs and says that he likes hers style. No-one is going 'OMG! She had a Thermal Detonator! w0w she is teh RoXXorz!!!!111!!!!

All I'm trying to say is that coping with an apparently suicidal thermal detonater wielding bounty hunter is far outside the normal course of events in Jaba's court which suggests that TDs, at least of the rating Leia was using, are outside the normal scope of what one would expect to encounter in that context, but other weapons are not. The fact that there were two steely cold bad asses in the room (Jabba and Fett) doesn't change that. This is simply an attempt to supply evidence that TDs are not common weapons like blasters, and might employ some unusual processes.

Think about what I'm saying, and at least try to keep your responses contempt free. Did I SAY they were "going teh RoXXorz!!!!111!!fucking1one!"? No, I said "scared in an impressed way".
Honestly...

[Jay]

All I'm trying to say is that coping with an apparently suicidal thermal detonater wielding bounty hunter is far outside the normal course of events in Jaba's court which suggests that TDs, at least of the rating Leia was using, are outside the normal scope of what one would expect to encounter in that context, but other weapons are not. The fact that there were two steely cold bad asses in the room (Jabba and Fett) doesn't change that. This is simply an attempt to supply evidence that TDs are not common weapons like blasters, and might employ some unusual processes..

I still think that you interpretation of the scene proves nothing about the rairty or availablity of the Thermal detonator. Leia pulls a grenade and the dancers and musicians and servants panic. If I were to walk into a nightclub and pull out a run-of-the-mill hand-grenade, I would get the same reaction. A weapon can be shit-scarey and widley available. The two are not mutually exclusive.

We are after all dealing with thugs and low life, not seasoned professionals. As you rightly pointed out, Boba and Jabba remain calm, and it is no coincidence that they are the experienced ones.

Think about what I'm saying, and at least try to keep your responses contempt free. Did I SAY they were "going teh RoXXorz!!!!111!!fucking1one!"? No, I said "scared in an impressed way".
Honestly..

Actually, that was out of charicter for me to be so contemotuous. I beg your pardon. I blame the fish

[The Third Man]

I've been pondering a similar issue in the Dalek threat in OSF, and it occurs to me that even if the TD works by vanishing stuff from this dimension into another, there will still be a blast effect, because the very air within the sphere of effect will vanish. There will be an implosion, I imagine, as air rushes to fill the newly created vaccuum. I'm not certain as to how devastating this would be, but it would mean that effects are still not limited to a precisely defined sphere.

You could calculate what the force applied to, say, a brick wall that someone lets off a TD on one side of is by considering atmospheric pressure.

[YT300000]

Thermal detonators are not standard issue equipment

I'm not entirely sure in what form you mean that, but either way Stormtroopers have a Class-C thermal detonator strapped to their lower back.

[Sriad]

I still think that you interpretation of the scene proves nothing about the rairty or availablity of the Thermal detonator. Leia pulls a grenade and the dancers and musicians and servants panic. If I were to walk into a nightclub and pull out a run-of-the-mill hand-grenade, I would get the same reaction. A weapon can be shit-scarey and widley available. The two are not mutually exclusive.

We are after all dealing with thugs and low life, not seasoned professionals. As you rightly pointed out, Boba and Jabba remain calm, and it is no coincidence that they are the experienced ones.

Actually, that was out of charicter for me to be so contemotuous. I beg your pardon. I blame the fish

Forgiven, fish can do that to a chap. They're devious...

...so, I finally did a web search on Thermal Detonators, and came up with the following EU entry at starwars.com.

The heart of a thermal detonator's explosive power is the compact sphere of volatile baradium found inside a thermite shell. Once the thumb trigger is activated, the baradium enters a state of fusion reaction that creates an expandable particle field capable of disintegrating everything within a 20-meter blast radius. The detonator is typically set on a timer, since the explosive radius is quite large and represents an extreme hazard to the weapon's bearer.

Although a variety of detonators exist, almost all are very carefully regulated and outright illegal to own. The Merr-Sonn Munitions Class-A thermal detonator is an extremely powerful model. Baradium is dangerously unstable, and fusion reactions have been known to start due to improper handling or jarring of the detonators.

The standard Imperial stormtrooper armor features a smaller, low-yield thermal detonator built into its belt design. The canister-shaped weapon, encased in an axidite shell, has a blast radius of only five meters, and is code-protected in such a way to prevent Rebels from stealing and using the explosives.

So it sounds to me like there's a fusion process whose energy either directly triggers or else is used to fuel a disintigration process in the TD's effective radius. The force-field blender and hyperspacial displacement theories seem to be bumped off here. It would hardly be the first time quasi-official sources have been wrong if this isn't the case, but there are, afaik, no on screen TDs actually going off, so it wouldn't be like the Executor's size.