Most Cliche'd Alien

[Lord Zentei]

I don't have a problem with it if it is appropriately done. If the Vorlons or the Q (early TNG) or the Arisians want to call us barbarians, it carries a lot more weight considering their accomplishments.
When Spock has to join Human-run starfleet and hitch a ride on human-made starships to protect a galactic government that came into being because of humanity's efforts to unite species into one benevolent government, I just don't think it's appropriate. It's not like the Vulcans did better.
The Minbari have a feudal government that shafts 75% of their population. They get very genocidal very quickly and protect one of the worst war criminals in B5-verse history. So just because they have tinkly bell music and an obsession with New Age spirituality, they get to call us barbarians?
The Eldar...Fuck the Eldar.

You know, human history is rife with cultures that deem others "barbarians" without justification to do so. I don't see why this should be a problem as far as alien cultural traits are concerned.

Basically, there's a difference between aliens that are so truly advanced or inhumanly alien that their perception of us would be unflattering, and aliens that are just like us only slightly better and more idealistic that are just mouthpieces for a writer to get his rocks off. "Humanity is all barbarians compared to my quasi-socialist pacifist aliens. I just loooove them!"

This is bullshit.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Whatever Zentei. This is a thread about cliches, and most cliches begin as something that makes sense. Just because humans did it (and who says I don't complain about such cultural stereotypes in real life?) doesn't automatically make it free from clichee-hood in a scifi novel. We're talking about these things as cliches because they are done over and over and over again. That's what a cliche is.

[Spacebeard]

You never saw the intended irony, which was that no one else in the universe was actually any better off?

I saw the irony... I just didn't realize it was intentional.

According to many documentaries I've seen it wasn't, people who knew him said that he was trying to get across his dissaffection and frustration with the human race.

I can buy that motivation for a comic writer, but in the face of the Vogons and Golgafrinchans it seems a bit silly to claim that Douglas Adams was trying to create imaginary alien races which were better than humans. Most of his aliens are either stand-ins for certain types of humans, or are exactly like humans except that they happen to be extradimensional intelligent shades of the color blue.

[Lord Zentei]

Whatever Zentei. This is a thread about cliches, and most cliches begin as something that makes sense. Just because humans did it (and who says I don't complain about such cultural stereotypes in real life?) doesn't automatically make it free from clichee-hood in a scifi novel. We're talking about these things as cliches because they are done over and over and over again. That's what a cliche is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with complaining about such things in real life. More power to you for doing so.

Racial and cultural arrogance is however (unfortunately) a highly generic trait, and it seems to me that branding traits that are too generic as cliché is a tad to all-encompassing.

Though, I'll agree that it may depend on how it is handled.

Anyway, I think you'll agree that the various other traits of "space elves" have been shown to be far from universal. Apart from snootiness and age, there really is nothing that unites them as a group, meaning that the label "space elves" is inapplicable as such.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

So maybe the traits vary, but it didn't stop people from knowing what I was talking about when I said "space elf". People even called me on mentioning the Jedi--meaning that they had a fixed idea of what falls into the "space-elf" category enough to know that Jedi don't fit, but they didn't complain about the others...well, besides you and the guy who thought that the existence of Romulans disqualified the Vulcans.

[Lord Zentei]

So maybe the traits vary, but it didn't stop people from knowing what I was talking about when I said "space elf". People even called me on mentioning the Jedi--meaning that they had a fixed idea of what falls into the "space-elf" category enough to know that Jedi don't fit, but they didn't complain about the others...well, besides you and the guy who thought that the existence of Romulans disqualified the Vulcans.

It is the traits that determine the race. The fact that everyone knew what you were talking about means nothing if the grouping fails in the face of a more careful analysis.

There can be such a thing as a cliché criticism too, you know - such as labeling all snooty-and-older-than-humans aliens as "space elves" when such a classification is not valid. In this case the cliché is in the eye of the critic.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

In this case the cliché is in the eye of the critic.

I'll agree to that.
I was mainly just venting about stuff that annoys me, so my idea of space-elves is undoubtedly based on my personal opinion of them.

[Lord Zentei]

In this case the cliché is in the eye of the critic.

I'll agree to that.
I was mainly just venting about stuff that annoys me, so my idea of space-elves is undoubtedly based on my personal opinion of them.

Yeah, fair enough. Anyway I felt that too many were just listing their gripes without any discussion taking place. So I decided to rectify that. You were just the first.

Com on, guys, some more apologism/discussion is needed here.

[Civil War Man]

In fact the only unifying factors of these "space elves" are:

1) They are - in some way or another - in decline with respect to humanity.
2) Their civilization is older than that of the humans.

Both of these are important for the making of the space-elves, but there is a third factor to make true space-elves:

3) Despite being in decline, they are able to take the time to bring humanity up to speed so it can take its place in the galaxy.

If any of the races don't have that third characteristic, they aren't true space-elves.

[Junghalli]

I don't have a problem with it if it is appropriately done. If the Vorlons or the Q (early TNG) or the Arisians want to call us barbarians, it carries a lot more weight considering their accomplishments.

What about a species like my Sakantula? They are generally more peaceful than humans, and less greedy. Their society is sort of like the TNG Federation, supposedly people work for the good of the society as opposed to material gain. And with them it actually works. That's not to say they don't have problems (I don't like wanker societies-they are one of the antagonists in the setting), but they do think of humans as violent and greedy barbarians and perhaps not without some reason. They are a lot older than humans (they've been in space since 6,000 BC), but not terribly more powerful or advanced.

When Spock has to join Human-run starfleet and hitch a ride on human-made starships to protect a galactic government that came into being because of humanity's efforts to unite species into one benevolent government, I just don't think it's appropriate. It's not like the Vulcans did better.

If it weren't for the fact that Vulcans supposedly don't have emotions I'd say they were trying to salve their wounded pride. Us humans have evidentally shown them up rather badly, is it any wonder they're falling back on saying they're morally superior to feel patriotic about themselves?

The Minbari have a feudal government that shafts 75% of their population. They get very genocidal very quickly and protect one of the worst war criminals in B5-verse history. So just because they have tinkly bell music and an obsession with New Age spirituality, they get to call us barbarians?

I tend to view it as the wanking of jingoists. And it's probably the same as with the Japanese-they weren't morally superior to the Dutch but they considered them barbarians.

The Eldar...Fuck the Eldar.

The Eldar are arrogant little twats who consider all other sapient species to be basically animals... so I'd say they fit right in with the rest of their galaxy.

aliens that are just like us only slightly better and more idealistic that are just mouthpieces for a writer to get his rocks off. "Humanity is all barbarians compared to my quasi-socialist pacifist aliens. I just loooove them!"

Yeah, I do just hate it when a writer uses SF as a forum to preach his views on what he thinks is the ideal society. Roddenberry and the TNG Federation come to mind, or John Norman and Gor (the latter being particularly bad as the society is rather repugnant).
One example that sticks out in my mind is Humans, the last part of Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Parralex trilogy. The thing is the first two books were rather good, but then he just ripped off his pants and started wanking furiously. We just need to totally abandon religion, and all become bisexual, and reduce the world population to a few million so we can support ourselves as hunter-gatherers, and then everything will be perfect!!!

[Spacebeard]

I remember a story I read once where humans took the place of the "space elves" described here; they were an established advanced race and felt threatened by the rapid rise of a smarter and quicker race. They tried to keep them contained and deny them access to advanced technology, in vain. I sadly don't recall the title or author, however, though I believe I read it in an anthology entitled "The Hard SF Renaissance".

Anyway, as with my earlier post about the situation in "Last and First Men", I find it interesting when authors reverse these cliched alien behaviours. Even the hoariest old B-movie storyline becomes at least somewhat interesting if you can identify with both sides of the conflict.

That story also showed, I think, that the cliche labelled here as "space elves" is more an example of cliched SF treatment of humans than it is of aliens. Humans, especially in early pulp magazine work, were always plucky innovators who vexed the arrogant elder races by outracing their stagnant development. I've read that certain editors (Campbell for one, IIRC) would throw out stories that didn't mesh with this particular portrayal of humanity: "we" always must be smarter, faster, or more determined than any other species.

[Junghalli]

Anyway, as with my earlier post about the situation in "Last and First Men", I find it interesting when authors reverse these cliched alien behaviours.

The Sakantula species mentioned above was sort of my attempt to reverse the violent barbaric aliens vs. self-righteous "enlightened" humanity you see so often in TNG.

That story also showed, I think, that the cliche labelled here as "space elves" is more an example of cliched SF treatment of humans than it is of aliens. Humans, especially in early pulp magazine work, were always plucky innovators who vexed the arrogant elder races by outracing their stagnant development.

The Tau in 40K are another example of an author playing around with turning this cliche on its head.

[Majin Gojira]

Ancient Uber-Cultures piss me off quite a bit. So over uesed....

[Diamedes]

Anyone read the most recent Peter Hamilton novel, Pandora's Star?

It has space elves that are actually elves.

[Nephtys]

Anyone read the most recent Peter Hamilton novel, Pandora's Star?

It has space elves that are actually elves.

..like the Eldar?

[fgalkin]

Also a thing to note: all the Space Elves nearly wipe themselves out before humans become a spaceborne power.

Except the Minbari. They nearly wipe us out.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord Zentei]

In fact the only unifying factors of these "space elves" are:

1) They are - in some way or another - in decline with respect to humanity.
2) Their civilization is older than that of the humans.

Both of these are important for the making of the space-elves, but there is a third factor to make true space-elves:

3) Despite being in decline, they are able to take the time to bring humanity up to speed so it can take its place in the galaxy.

If any of the races don't have that third characteristic, they aren't true space-elves.

As I showed with the example of the Eldar Harlequins, #s 1 and 2 don't always hold. With #3, the Eldar are not space elves as they seek to screw humanity over.

My point was - and is - that the alleged cliché of the space elves is one that critics are guilty of: a quick and dirty classification that holds no true merit.

These aliens are tall and skinny and have an old civilization. OOH! Space elves!
These aliens are stronger than humans and have advanced tech. OOOH! Space elves!
These aliens are xenophobic and snooty. OOOH! Space elves!

It is indeed a cliché. Please stop doing it, people.

[Lord Zentei]

aliens that are just like us only slightly better and more idealistic that are just mouthpieces for a writer to get his rocks off. "Humanity is all barbarians compared to my quasi-socialist pacifist aliens. I just loooove them!"

Yeah, I do just hate it when a writer uses SF as a forum to preach his views on what he thinks is the ideal society. Roddenberry and the TNG Federation come to mind, or John Norman and Gor (the latter being particularly bad as the society is rather repugnant).
One example that sticks out in my mind is Humans, the last part of Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Parralex trilogy. The thing is the first two books were rather good, but then he just ripped off his pants and started wanking furiously. We just need to totally abandon religion, and all become bisexual, and reduce the world population to a few million so we can support ourselves as hunter-gatherers, and then everything will be perfect!!!

You know, if the writer using an alien culture to express his view on what he considers a posetive and ribbing his fellow humans a bit in the process is all it takes to make a cliché, it seems that there is little hope for science fiction, which is after all all about presenting an alternative to what we have, while analyzing the impact of hypothetical technology. Unless all idealized societies are made out as human, except that has been dissed elsewhere in this thread.

[Lord Zentei]

That story also showed, I think, that the cliche labelled here as "space elves" is more an example of cliched SF treatment of humans than it is of aliens. Humans, especially in early pulp magazine work, were always plucky innovators who vexed the arrogant elder races by outracing their stagnant development. I've read that certain editors (Campbell for one, IIRC) would throw out stories that didn't mesh with this particular portrayal of humanity: "we" always must be smarter, faster, or more determined than any other species.

That rings true. Given the lack of unifying traits in the alleged "space elves", this might be the source of the perception that such a group exists.

Ancient Uber-Cultures piss me off quite a bit. So over uesed....

Now, with human civilization only ten thousand years old and the universe fourteen billion years old, that one is hardly implausible...

[SVPD]

I'd have to go with the "Aliens with biotechnology which is better than inorganic technology" (Aliens, Yhuzaan Vong, Tyrannids, etc.)

[18-Till-I-Die]

Tyranids dont use biotech, they are just huge animals that can survive in space and have evolved to be incredibly durable, IIRC.

[Black Admiral]

I'd have to go with the "Aliens with biotechnology which is better than inorganic technology" (Aliens, Yhuzaan Vong, Tyrannids, etc.)

Tyranid biotech isn't superior to the Imperium's, at least in space (Battlefleet Bakka+Calgar's fleet were scoring a kill ratio of dozens:one).

The Eldar are arrogant little twats who consider all other sapient species to be basically animals... so I'd say they fit right in with the rest of their galaxy.

What do you mean, basically animals? The eldar consider anything not an eldar, humans specifically, to be worse than animals.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Um, so am I the only person who hates body snatchers?

[Kuja]

Tyranids dont use biotech

Are you nuts? Then what do you call this?



The Tyrannids are the most blatent users of biotech in all the scifi I've read. They're even worse than the Yuuzahn Vong, and that's saying something.

[Kuja]

And BTW, the Tyrannids are my vote for the most cliched aliens ever. Instect swarm + hive mind + body snatchers + all biotechnology = ultimate irritant in my book. I love watching 'nids get smacked around in 40K.