The Christian Complex
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
The Christian Complex
linky
By George F. Will
Thursday, May 5, 2005; Page A25
The state of America's political discourse is such that the president has felt it necessary to declare that unbelievers can be good Americans. In last week's prime-time news conference, he said: "If you choose not to worship, you're equally as patriotic as somebody who does worship."
So Mark Twain, Oliver Wendell Holmes and a long, luminous list of other skeptics can be spared the posthumous ignominy of being stricken from the rolls of exemplary Americans. And almost 30 million living Americans welcomed that presidential benediction.
According to the American Religious Identification Survey, Americans who answer "none" when asked to identify their religion numbered 29.4 million in 2001, more than double the 14.3 million in 1990. If unbelievers had their own state -- the state of None -- its population would be more than twice that of New England's six states, and None would be the nation's second-largest state:
California, 34.5 million.
None, 29.4 million.
Texas, 21.3 million.
The president, whose political instincts, at least, are no longer so misunderestimated by his despisers, may have hoped his remarks about unbelievers would undo some of the damage done by the Terri Schiavo case. During that Florida controversy, he made a late-night flight from his Texas ranch to Washington to dramatize his signing of imprudent legislation that his party was primarily responsible for passing. He and his party seemed to have subcontracted governance to certain especially fervid religious supporters.
And last Sunday Pat Robertson, who is fervid but also shrewd, seemed to understand that religious conservatives should be a bit more meek if they want to inherit the Earth. Robertson was asked on ABC's "This Week" whether religious conservatives would be seriously disaffected if in 2008 the Republicans' presidential nominee were to be someone like Rudy Giuliani.
Although Giuliani's eight years as New York's mayor, measured by such achievements as reduction of crime and welfare rolls, constitute perhaps America's most transformative conservative governance in the past half-century, he supports abortion rights, gay rights and gun control. Still, Robertson's relaxed reply to the question was, essentially: What's a little heresy among friends? "Rudy's a very good friend of mine and he did a super job running the city of New York and I think he'd make a good president."
Some Christians should practice the magnanimity of the strong rather than cultivate the grievances of the weak. But many Christians are joining today's scramble for the status of victims. There is much lamentation about various "assaults" on "people of faith." Christians are indeed experiencing some petty insults and indignities concerning things such as restrictions on school Christmas observances. But their persecution complex is unbecoming because it is unrealistic.
In just 15 months, Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" has become one of the 10 highest-grossing movies in history, and it almost certainly will become the most-seen movie in history. The television networks, which can read election returns and the sales figures of "The Da Vinci Code," are getting religion, of sorts. The Associated Press reports that NBC is developing a show called "The Book of Daniel" about a minister who abuses prescription drugs and is visited by a "cool, contemporary Jesus." Fox is working on a pilot about "a priest teaming with a neurologist to examine unexplained events."
Christian book sales are booming. "The Rising" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, the 13th in the astonishing 10-year sequence of Christian novels in the "Left Behind" series, was published two months ago and rocketed to the top of Amazon.com's bestseller list. Three years ago LaHaye and Jenkins, whose first dozen volumes have sold a combined 62 million copies, joined Tom Clancy, John Grisham and J.K. Rowling as the only authors whose novels have first printings of 2 million, partly because they are being sold in huge volumes in stores such as Wal-Mart and Costco. Today LaHaye and Jenkins are leaving Clancy, Grisham, et al. in the dust.
Religion is today banished from the public square? John Kennedy finished his first report to the nation on the Soviet missiles in Cuba with these words: "Thank you and good night." It would be a rash president who today did not conclude a major address by saying, as President Ronald Reagan began the custom of doing, something very like "God bless America."
Unbelievers should not cavil about this acknowledgment of majority sensibilities. But Republicans should not seem to require, de facto, what the Constitution forbids, de jure: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust."
By George F. Will
Thursday, May 5, 2005; Page A25
The state of America's political discourse is such that the president has felt it necessary to declare that unbelievers can be good Americans. In last week's prime-time news conference, he said: "If you choose not to worship, you're equally as patriotic as somebody who does worship."
So Mark Twain, Oliver Wendell Holmes and a long, luminous list of other skeptics can be spared the posthumous ignominy of being stricken from the rolls of exemplary Americans. And almost 30 million living Americans welcomed that presidential benediction.
According to the American Religious Identification Survey, Americans who answer "none" when asked to identify their religion numbered 29.4 million in 2001, more than double the 14.3 million in 1990. If unbelievers had their own state -- the state of None -- its population would be more than twice that of New England's six states, and None would be the nation's second-largest state:
California, 34.5 million.
None, 29.4 million.
Texas, 21.3 million.
The president, whose political instincts, at least, are no longer so misunderestimated by his despisers, may have hoped his remarks about unbelievers would undo some of the damage done by the Terri Schiavo case. During that Florida controversy, he made a late-night flight from his Texas ranch to Washington to dramatize his signing of imprudent legislation that his party was primarily responsible for passing. He and his party seemed to have subcontracted governance to certain especially fervid religious supporters.
And last Sunday Pat Robertson, who is fervid but also shrewd, seemed to understand that religious conservatives should be a bit more meek if they want to inherit the Earth. Robertson was asked on ABC's "This Week" whether religious conservatives would be seriously disaffected if in 2008 the Republicans' presidential nominee were to be someone like Rudy Giuliani.
Although Giuliani's eight years as New York's mayor, measured by such achievements as reduction of crime and welfare rolls, constitute perhaps America's most transformative conservative governance in the past half-century, he supports abortion rights, gay rights and gun control. Still, Robertson's relaxed reply to the question was, essentially: What's a little heresy among friends? "Rudy's a very good friend of mine and he did a super job running the city of New York and I think he'd make a good president."
Some Christians should practice the magnanimity of the strong rather than cultivate the grievances of the weak. But many Christians are joining today's scramble for the status of victims. There is much lamentation about various "assaults" on "people of faith." Christians are indeed experiencing some petty insults and indignities concerning things such as restrictions on school Christmas observances. But their persecution complex is unbecoming because it is unrealistic.
In just 15 months, Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" has become one of the 10 highest-grossing movies in history, and it almost certainly will become the most-seen movie in history. The television networks, which can read election returns and the sales figures of "The Da Vinci Code," are getting religion, of sorts. The Associated Press reports that NBC is developing a show called "The Book of Daniel" about a minister who abuses prescription drugs and is visited by a "cool, contemporary Jesus." Fox is working on a pilot about "a priest teaming with a neurologist to examine unexplained events."
Christian book sales are booming. "The Rising" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, the 13th in the astonishing 10-year sequence of Christian novels in the "Left Behind" series, was published two months ago and rocketed to the top of Amazon.com's bestseller list. Three years ago LaHaye and Jenkins, whose first dozen volumes have sold a combined 62 million copies, joined Tom Clancy, John Grisham and J.K. Rowling as the only authors whose novels have first printings of 2 million, partly because they are being sold in huge volumes in stores such as Wal-Mart and Costco. Today LaHaye and Jenkins are leaving Clancy, Grisham, et al. in the dust.
Religion is today banished from the public square? John Kennedy finished his first report to the nation on the Soviet missiles in Cuba with these words: "Thank you and good night." It would be a rash president who today did not conclude a major address by saying, as President Ronald Reagan began the custom of doing, something very like "God bless America."
Unbelievers should not cavil about this acknowledgment of majority sensibilities. But Republicans should not seem to require, de facto, what the Constitution forbids, de jure: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust."
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In just 15 months, Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" has become one of the 10 highest-grossing movies in history, and it almost certainly will become the most-seen movie in history. The television networks, which can read election returns and the sales figures of "The Da Vinci Code," are getting religion, of sorts. The Associated Press reports that NBC is developing a show called "The Book of Daniel" about a minister who abuses prescription drugs and is visited by a "cool, contemporary Jesus." Fox is working on a pilot about "a priest teaming with a neurologist to examine unexplained events."
God damn, what is with these people? There's already another religion vs science show (including a hot nun). I'm sick of this bullshit. And don't get me started on Mel Gibson. How do people like this crap?
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
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It seems to me like they're obligated by their faith to watch The Passion, and don't REALLY like it.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
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There's also the 'watching a train wreck' quality to the movie (although I haven't seen it - I already knew the surprise ending). These are people who decry violence in movies as harmful to the public morality, but given the opportunity to see it in a religious context, they prove that it's every bit as enthralling to see gore in entertainment whether it's Roman soldiers flaying Jesus or Freddy Krueger slashing up teenagers (and for the record, who other than me would love to see a Freddy/Greatest Story Ever Told crossover with Freddy getting into Jesus and the Apostles' dreams and hacking them off one by one until the big finale where Jesus gets stabbed a lot and keeps rising from the dead until he turns Freddy's body into crackers?)wolveraptor wrote:It seems to me like they're obligated by their faith to watch The Passion, and don't REALLY like it.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
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I'd agree with Lagmonster, having seen the movie with a christian friend's church group when it came out (I couldn't resist a free ticket to such an unusual movie). The primary interest factor was the sheer bloodied, agonied nature of the movie, the "train wreck" quality.
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Bah. I only like action-violence, not torture violence. Are there any huge combat scenes, like Jewish/Christian rioters getting impaled on roman javelins?
Btw, kudos to Lagmonster for the Freddy vs. Jesus movie idea. But make it Jason vs. Jesus. See? Alliteration AND gore. It's win-win!
Besides, Jason is so much cooler with the visit to hell, and the massive size and the silent whispering and the huge machette and the incredible strength.
Btw, kudos to Lagmonster for the Freddy vs. Jesus movie idea. But make it Jason vs. Jesus. See? Alliteration AND gore. It's win-win!
Besides, Jason is so much cooler with the visit to hell, and the massive size and the silent whispering and the huge machette and the incredible strength.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
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Train wreck, it was Jesus: The Snuff Film.Guardsman Bass wrote:I'd agree with Lagmonster, having seen the movie with a christian friend's church group when it came out (I couldn't resist a free ticket to such an unusual movie). The primary interest factor was the sheer bloodied, agonied nature of the movie, the "train wreck" quality.
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The best summary of it was like this. A while ago, a film class. A student asked "Will we watch The Passion of the Christ?"Stormbringer wrote:Train wreck, it was Jesus: The Snuff Film.Guardsman Bass wrote:I'd agree with Lagmonster, having seen the movie with a christian friend's church group when it came out (I couldn't resist a free ticket to such an unusual movie). The primary interest factor was the sheer bloodied, agonied nature of the movie, the "train wreck" quality.
Teacher replied by saying he doesn't approve of showing science fiction films in class.
...you heathen.
"The Passion" will make Mel Gibson richer, more famous and more powerful then the pope. You seem to have no respect for money, power, influence, religion or goo - and start picking on a man that has proved that he can make a really bloody film, make most catholics like it and still make it so controversial that it makes headlines years after it's release. Mel Gibson even make it look like he is doing this as a service for the christian churches, and I guess he will be made a saint somtimes in the future. I thought this was the american dream - becoming rich and famous, religious, "open minded" family man, that may become historic because of his works. (?)
I enjoy that the president do consider "patriot" to be a purley positive word - and not with a sour flavor of extreme nationalism and intolerance that many europeans connect "patriot" with.
- and for the record, I live in a country that is religious by constitution, that has a theologican as prime minister - but where "God bless..." would be considered a ridiculous phrase by a politician, and where mixing religion and politics are done mainly by those not religious who fail to see the difference.
"The Passion" will make Mel Gibson richer, more famous and more powerful then the pope. You seem to have no respect for money, power, influence, religion or goo - and start picking on a man that has proved that he can make a really bloody film, make most catholics like it and still make it so controversial that it makes headlines years after it's release. Mel Gibson even make it look like he is doing this as a service for the christian churches, and I guess he will be made a saint somtimes in the future. I thought this was the american dream - becoming rich and famous, religious, "open minded" family man, that may become historic because of his works. (?)
I enjoy that the president do consider "patriot" to be a purley positive word - and not with a sour flavor of extreme nationalism and intolerance that many europeans connect "patriot" with.
- and for the record, I live in a country that is religious by constitution, that has a theologican as prime minister - but where "God bless..." would be considered a ridiculous phrase by a politician, and where mixing religion and politics are done mainly by those not religious who fail to see the difference.
There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Thank you!st. mark wrote:...you heathen.
The key is.. it's not a good movie by any stretch of the imagination. Instead it's hyped extensively because it's content is important to the audience that might go there to watch. As a result, people are heaping praise on it which it does not deserve. Best film? No way. I'm not knocking his money or whatever.st. mark wrote:"The Passion" will make Mel Gibson richer, more famous and more powerful then the pope. You seem to have no respect for money, power, influence, religion or goo - and start picking on a man that has proved that he can make a really bloody film, make most catholics like it and still make it so controversial that it makes headlines years after it's release. Mel Gibson even make it look like he is doing this as a service for the christian churches, and I guess he will be made a saint somtimes in the future. I thought this was the american dream - becoming rich and famous, religious, "open minded" family man, that may become historic because of his works. (?)
No respect? Since when am I obliged to respect a man simply because he has power? Or money? That is your argument, right?
You don't get it. Our nation is not based on one religion. By saying God Bless, you're marginalizing anyone who believes in a different set of dieties. Mixing religion and politics done mainly by the not-religious? What the hell do you think the Stem Cell deal was? The big deal about the Fundies demanding the 10 Commandments be posted in federal courts? The attempts to pass laws saying that the US judiciary was founded on christian principles?- and for the record, I live in a country that is religious by constitution, that has a theologican as prime minister - but where "God bless..." would be considered a ridiculous phrase by a politician, and where mixing religion and politics are done mainly by those not religious who fail to see the difference.
Get your facts straight, please. And oh. Starting with 'you heathen' isn't going to get you taken seriously at all around here.
No way...I saw The Frighteners last night, and Johnny could have taken Jason, easy. Freddy he wouldn't've stood a chance against.wolveraptor wrote:Bah. I only like action-violence, not torture violence. Are there any huge combat scenes, like Jewish/Christian rioters getting impaled on roman javelins?
Btw, kudos to Lagmonster for the Freddy vs. Jesus movie idea. But make it Jason vs. Jesus. See? Alliteration AND gore. It's win-win!
Besides, Jason is so much cooler with the visit to hell, and the massive size and the silent whispering and the huge machette and the incredible strength.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
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We have a different word for that: jingoism. Or, if you prefer, chauvinism (but that's so much more general).I enjoy that the president do consider "patriot" to be a purley positive word - and not with a sour flavor of extreme nationalism and intolerance that many europeans connect "patriot" with.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock