School Prayer

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-05-11 12:39pm

I had a conversation with someone while in the park yesterday while walking the dog, and for some reason it went to the subject of school prayer. This lady was of the opinion that preventing students from praying before school was wrong and immoral and violated freedom of expression that is the fundamental writes of the students. I listened to this for a big and once she actually stopped for a second I asked a question that seemed obvious to me.

"What's stopping students from praying before classes start or even during class?"

She said something about liberals and I had to force my mind from leaving my body. It occurs to me that at no point in my scholastic career did anyone actively go around stopping students from praying if they wanted to. With the sheer amount of BS that goes on before, during, and after class, if students want to pray, it's not like the teacher pull vaults over the kids wailing on each other with paper balls, past the boy and girl making out messily in class, around the nerd getting shook down for his lunch money and whacks the praying kid going "NO PRAYER IN SCHOOL!". Or even during class, I'm pretty sure the teachers "Liberal Secular Humanist Pray-dar" doesn't register a contact if a kid is at his desk praying and halt the class to oppress Christian Values. Nor, if you believe some people, do black-armored ACLU marines repel down from hovering Black Hawks and come in shooting via the windows bellowing something about a Code 201 in progress, "God Fearing American Expresses Faith".

This kind of underscores the extreme silliness of the conservative position on school prayer to me. People can already pray in schools, no one is stopping them, unless they are doing it alouded during a class session, then they are distrupting the class. Anyone who wants to pray probably already does it anyway. Seems to me that they've got nothing to complain about, unless their purpose was to begin with was to force everyone else to follow their beliefs, which is the complete opposite of the "Freedom of Religious Expression" the lady in the park was talking about.

Naturally, when I told her the above, I got that kind of dirty look that people get when they want to say something really cutting and witty but aren't coming up with anything. Clearly, I'm going straight to hell.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2005-05-11 12:43pm

I am at the point in those conversations that I want to just smack the bitch and move on.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-11 12:45pm

People like that do a little shell game between "discreet personal prayer" and "loud, organized, public prayer" and hope you won't notice.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-05-11 12:55pm

I guess, that the students themselves don´t give a fuck about praying in class. They just want to be allowed to pray so they can waste class time and have to work less.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-11 01:13pm

I remember a cartoon posted on the bulletin board of a classroom used to host my high school's Bible club. In it, a teacher harasses a well-dressed student carrying a Bible for violating the ban on school prayer, while ignoring other students who were carrying weapons or drugs (in the usual stereotypical anarchist/punk charicatures).

Whenever I encounter such a fucknut who argues that prayer was taken out of school, and that it has led to a decline in morality among American youth, I have to remind them that not only are students allowed to pray, there is no causal link between the restriction against organized, mandatory school prayer and a "decline" in school morality. Idiots.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-11 01:15pm

Firefox wrote:I remember a cartoon posted on the bulletin board of a classroom used to host my high school's Bible club. In it, a teacher harasses a well-dressed student carrying a Bible for violating the ban on school prayer, while ignoring other students who were carrying weapons or drugs (in the usual stereotypical anarchist/punk charicatures).

Whenever I encounter such a fucknut who argues that prayer was taken out of school, and that it has led to a decline in morality among American youth, I have to remind them that not only are students allowed to pray, there is no causal link between the restriction against organized, mandatory school prayer and a "decline" in school morality. Idiots.

Simpler yet, remind them that one of the first acts of the Nazi party when it got into power in Germany was to re-institute school prayer. Yup; that sure turned out a generation of fine upstanding moralists, didn't it?

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-11 01:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:Simpler yet, remind them that one of the first acts of the Nazi party when it got into power in Germany was to re-institute school prayer. Yup; that sure turned out a generation of fine upstanding moralists, didn't it?

If they're somewhat informed (read: not) on the subject, they'd probably pull something like these loons:

+http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/000822.html

And claim that "well, they weren't praying to God, so it doesn't count".

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-05-11 02:52pm

Huh, I prayed all the time in school, (well maybe not all the time, but often enough). No one noticed and no one cared. It probably didn't even register to my teachers when I happened to have my hands folded and my eyes closed before a test or whatever. It's not like the principal dragged me out of the lunchroom for praying before lunch. Considering this, why is it ever neccisary to have an organized prayer? It's supposed to private anyway, and even a a practicing christian, I would have found it gallingly obnoxious to invoke God at the beginning of school every day.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2005-05-11 03:16pm

I have yet - absolutely YET, mind - to meet any supporter of public school prayer who ever eventually realized that these kids might benefit from concentrating on their STUDIES while in class and not their whiny pleas for mercy, love, a winning lottery ticket or being able to have the priest blow THEM for a change.

Despite that, Mike nailed the point: The battle over school prayer is more accurately described as the battle over organized public displays of Christian unity. Which is funny since Mathew 6:5-7 basically warns against everything that outspoken Christians actually do.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-05-11 03:23pm

Lagmonster wrote:I have yet - absolutely YET, mind - to meet any supporter of public school prayer who ever eventually realized that these kids might benefit from concentrating on their STUDIES while in class and not their whiny pleas for mercy, love, a winning lottery ticket or being able to have the priest blow THEM for a change.

Despite that, Mike nailed the point: The battle over school prayer is more accurately described as the battle over organized public displays of Christian unity. Which is funny since Mathew 6:5-7 basically warns against everything that outspoken Christians actually do.

AMEN!

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » 2005-05-11 03:26pm

As the old saying goes, 'As long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in school' ....

Just not prayer organized for everyone in class to follow along, led by a teacher or student .... simple distinction that any idiot can follow. It's just that most fundies don't *want* to follow that distinction, because what they want is for everyone to be required to sit and listen attentively to that teacher-led prayer so they can be 'saved' ....

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-11 05:35pm

I stil like my prayer best: "From the ignorance of the Southmen, O LORD deliver us."

Or, more comically: "Dear God, I asketh thee to show thy mercy and...EAT MY SHORTS!"

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-11 05:52pm

Christians truly do attempt to think of themselves as a supressed minority if they can't force conformity on everyone... how could you believe that kind of thing? I've been forced to pray once in school, and I gotta say, it's really fucking annoying when you don't believe in any kind of God at all. Why the fuck should that be seen as right, when prayer is supposed to be between one man and his invisible best friend?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-11 09:13pm

Hey, the persecution complex worked before...

I mean really, what's 2 millenia anyways in the grand scheme of things?

Post by **Dalton** » 2005-05-12 04:08am

Zero132132 wrote:Christians truly do attempt to think of themselves as a supressed minority if they can't force conformity on everyone...

Bing!

It seems that these days any attempts to defend the civil rights of people with other religions or no religion is rebuffed with cries of attacks on "people of faith" by conservative pundits and snivelling politicians who want nothing more to establish a Christian theocracy.

Yes, I think it's happening, and yes, I'm scared.

Mike makes a good point, and I want to extrapolate a bit on that. Now this is totally unsubstantiated, but I think all the whiny christians bitching about school prayer already realize that these students CAN pray before classes. They just want to make it mandatory.

I find it to be an act of absolute, unmitigated gall that members of the most widespread religion in America actually cry "minority oppression" when someone blocks their hard-bought laws.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-12 04:14am

What we must understand, however, is that in their perspective, forcing students into prayer is a way of trying to save their souls. They can't understand that there's a way that their religion can be wrong, and probably is. This is what we need to work on first. Get people to understand that religion is between you and yourself, basically, and to understand that since they can't be sure there is a God, there certainly shouldn't be legislation that acts as if there was. But... this probably won't work either, as they brainwash themselves against ever accepting the idea that there may be no higher power...

Il Saggiatore · Post by **Il Saggiatore** » 2005-05-12 05:15am

Zero132132 wrote:What we must understand, however, is that in their perspective, forcing students into prayer is a way of trying to save their souls.

A forced prayer is not sincere. How would that save their souls?

Il Saggiatore · Post by **Il Saggiatore** » 2005-05-12 05:16am

Il Saggiatore wrote:
Zero132132 wrote:What we must understand, however, is that in their perspective, forcing students into prayer is a way of trying to save their souls.
A forced prayer is not sincere. How would that save their souls?

Silly me! It does not have to make sense!

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-12 09:05am

Dalton wrote:
Zero132132 wrote:Christians truly do attempt to think of themselves as a supressed minority if they can't force conformity on everyone...
Bing!

It seems that these days any attempts to defend the civil rights of people with other religions or no religion is rebuffed with cries of attacks on "people of faith" by conservative pundits and snivelling politicians who want nothing more to establish a Christian theocracy.

Well, of course. Because look at all the times those same Christians have to get bitch-slapped by the courts because they are trying to violated said civil rights of said people of other religions or no religions. Remember kids, discrimination is only okay if it's not against Jesus.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2005-05-12 09:13am

Il Saggiatore wrote:
Zero132132 wrote:What we must understand, however, is that in their perspective, forcing students into prayer is a way of trying to save their souls.
A forced prayer is not sincere. How would that save their souls?

Can't do any worse than the Spanish Inquisition did.

*pictures fundies leaping into classrooms in priestly/nunly garb and repeatedly misspeaking prayers

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2005-05-12 09:21am

Il Saggiatore wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:
Zero132132 wrote:What we must understand, however, is that in their perspective, forcing students into prayer is a way of trying to save their souls.
A forced prayer is not sincere. How would that save their souls?
Silly me! It does not have to make sense!

Logic doesn't even HAVE to come into play; recall my post earlier in this thread - all you need read to a Christian is Matthew 6: 5-7 and you're done.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-05-12 09:30am

It's all tied up to the Christian mindset of "all morality is derived from God." If God is absent, then so is morality, and if God is absent from schools, so is morality, and thus children become drug addicts and strippers and New York Yankees fans.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-12 09:39am

Lagmonster wrote:Logic doesn't even HAVE to come into play; recall my post earlier in this thread - all you need read to a Christian is Matthew 6: 5-7 and you're done.

I recall one excuse for that passage was that it was meant for Christians when they had to keep their faith secret. Bringing that passage into an argument elicits a "you're taking that out of context!" default response.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-05-12 09:50am

Chmee wrote:As the old saying goes, 'As long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in school' ....

"There are NO Atheists in testing hall!"

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-12 10:20pm

HemlockGrey wrote:It's all tied up to the Christian mindset of "all morality is derived from God." If God is absent, then so is morality, and if God is absent from schools, so is morality, and thus children become drug addicts and strippers and New York Yankees fans.

Ironically, they're admitting that their parenting skills are so poor, they need the school to help them do their job of teaching morality.