Most Cliche'd Alien

[Kuja]

I'd have to go with the "Aliens with biotechnology which is better than inorganic technology" (Aliens, Yhuzaan Vong, Tyrannids, etc.)

Tyranid biotech isn't superior to the Imperium's, at least in space (Battlefleet Bakka+Calgar's fleet were scoring a kill ratio of dozens:one).

But how many times have we been reminded that genestealer claws can cut right through teminator armour? I mean, come on, that's mention virtually every time the 'nids rear their heads.

[Shroom Man 777]

The aliens don't really apply. They're just animals that kill things through very unfortunate circumstances. I mean, like those crocodiles that ate all those Japanese soldiers in Indonesia or something.

[Black Admiral]

But how many times have we been reminded that genestealer claws can cut right through teminator armour? I mean, come on, that's mention virtually every time the 'nids rear their heads.

That's because they have some kind of psychic reinforcement like force weapons though, not because they're biotech.

And besides, any self-respecting Terminator'll block a genestealer's attacks with his powerfist.

[Kuja]

Geh. I don't care. Claws through terminator armour still annoys the piss out of me.

[Shroom Man 777]

I concur. Gah, biotech is so fucking wanked out. Biotech aliens. Biotech armor. Biotech guns. Biotech this and biotech that. Thank god my universe has aliens who used biotech and ended up ditching it for a slab of tungsten encased depleted uranium armor. Take that, b10t3k! *slaps face*

[18-Till-I-Die]

Tyranids dont count really though. They have no 'technology', those arent guns or ships they're trained animals basically. It's no more biotech than a racehorse is, or a seeing eye dog, or a mine mule.

And the 'nids rarely get 'tossed around' anywhere. IIRC they've come within spitting distance of screwing over the Imperium, Eldar and half teh galaxy on numerous occasions.

So suck on that inorganic tech using dogs!

[speaker-to-trolls]

Tyranids dont count really though. They have no 'technology', those arent guns or ships they're trained animals basically. It's no more biotech than a racehorse is, or a seeing eye dog, or a mine mule.

And the 'nids rarely get 'tossed around' anywhere. IIRC they've come within spitting distance of screwing over the Imperium, Eldar and half teh galaxy on numerous occasions.

So suck on that inorganic tech using dogs!

You're right, the Tyranids don't use biotech, they are biotech, they absorb other creatures DNA and use it to make improvements for themselves, that's basically reverse engineering, and those guns aren't trained animals, they are part of the tyranids bodies, some of them fire animals, but most of them fire crystals of some sort, that's biotech.
And I think what was meant by them getting smacked around is that one on one a tyranid is no match for a space marine and a bioship is no match for an imperial ship, the only reason they're doing as well as they are is sheer numbers, they've got basically infinite numerical superiority over everyone.

[Shroom Man 777]

With that logic, I could say the Zerg and half of those b10t3KKK nuts are just animals and not biotek crappers.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I don't have a problem with it if it is appropriately done. If the Vorlons or the Q (early TNG) or the Arisians want to call us barbarians, it carries a lot more weight considering their accomplishments.

What about a species like my Sakantula? They are generally more peaceful than humans, and less greedy. Their society is sort of like the TNG Federation, supposedly people work for the good of the society as opposed to material gain. And with them it actually works. That's not to say they don't have problems (I don't like wanker societies-they are one of the antagonists in the setting), but they do think of humans as violent and greedy barbarians and perhaps not without some reason. They are a lot older than humans (they've been in space since 6,000 BC), but not terribly more powerful or advanced.

So then they're the Space Europeans.

Now, if they are the antagonists, there must be some leverage that they aren't too nonconfrontational to use, right? So they do have an assholish side.

aliens that are just like us only slightly better and more idealistic that are just mouthpieces for a writer to get his rocks off. "Humanity is all barbarians compared to my quasi-socialist pacifist aliens. I just loooove them!"

Yeah, I do just hate it when a writer uses SF as a forum to preach his views on what he thinks is the ideal society. Roddenberry and the TNG Federation come to mind, or John Norman and Gor (the latter being particularly bad as the society is rather repugnant).

We're in agreement here. I just hate that kind of crap.

One example that sticks out in my mind is Humans, the last part of Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Parralex trilogy. The thing is the first two books were rather good, but then he just ripped off his pants and started wanking furiously. We just need to totally abandon religion, and all become bisexual, and reduce the world population to a few million so we can support ourselves as hunter-gatherers, and then everything will be perfect!!!

Reminds me of almost all the utopias in scifi, such as KSRobinson's reatarded greens + jocks paradise or Ursula K LeGuin's Dispossessed. I haven't read one utopia yet that wasn't some form of wanking or tirade against normal people and their interests.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

You know, if the writer using an alien culture to express his view on what he considers a posetive and ribbing his fellow humans a bit in the process is all it takes to make a cliché,

It is. This kind of writing is called "wanking" and often comes across like a brat having a tantrum. It's terrible uncreative and dishonest toward the readers. If the author wants to discuss his ideas on society, he should write an essay. If he wants to tell a story, then he can tell a story.

it seems that there is little hope for science fiction, which is after all all about presenting an alternative to what we have, while analyzing the impact of hypothetical technology.

Yes, and I don't see any stipulation for "ideal society wanking" in that characterisation of scifi. I think it's pretty clear that Asimov, Ellison, Clarke, pretty much every damn writer worth his scifi salt can deal with "alternatives" without wanking about how society would be soooo much better if we all just did what he wanted.

Except maybe Heinlein..

Unless all idealized societies are made out as human, except that has been dissed elsewhere in this thread.

I don't think the problem is with idealized alien societies vs human societies so much as with the concept that any society at all can be ideal. It's very hard to pull that one off convincingly, and 99 times out of 100 it comes across as retarded or forced--hence the cliche and people's reaction to it.

[18-Till-I-Die]

With that logic, I could say the Zerg and half of those b10t3KKK nuts are just animals and not biotek crappers.

Well in a way most are. The Zerg, for one, and i would think also Tyranids since basically they have no science, no technology whatsoever, only their own natural defenses and evolution to help them. They're not 'advanced', in fact they're primative, they're just better predators and have numbers on their side.

The Vorlons and Shadows clearly, however, use actual organic-based technology. Not animals or anything, but creatures genetically engineered to serve the purpose of a machine. The Vong too, and Species from ST Voyager. That, IMO, is biotech. It's science and machines, with natural evolution cut out.

Comparing the two...bio-aliens like teh Zerg and 'nids do rely heavily on numerical superiority to survive. Because, naturally, they're just animals usually led by a bigger, smarter animal like Overmind or the Hive Mind and they are weaker than most. Bio-tech has a tendancy to be, in the cases shown, more advanced in some ways than inorganic tcehnology for whatever reason. Like it or not, a Vorlon bioship is better than a EA destroyer, biotech being the main reason in that case.

I know, of course, people around here hate biotech. Me, i dont care, cliched aliens and shit is fun, i go with it. But there is a difference between a Zergling and a Vong warrior, one is a guy in a suit of armor the other is an animal with a shell and claws. The two arent the same really any more than a tiger and a Marine, one has natural strength and defenses the other has a machine gun and kevlar.

Forgive me if this sounds like splitting hairs, i know it's boardering on that...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Tyranids dont use biotech, they are just huge animals that can survive in space and have evolved to be incredibly durable, IIRC.

I think one of the newer pieces of fluff I read on one of the websites states that tyranids study technology they come across until they can make creatures for each piece or component of the technology. In other words, if the tyranids ate your car engine, they'd grow valve bugs, piston bugs, bugs for every moving part of the engine.

That's biotech...but at least it's apologetic biotech.

[Black Admiral]

I think one of the newer pieces of fluff I read on one of the websites states that tyranids study technology they come across until they can make creatures for each piece or component of the technology. In other words, if the tyranids ate your car engine, they'd grow valve bugs, piston bugs, bugs for every moving part of the engine.

That's biotech...but at least it's apologetic biotech.

This is true. Before encountering the Imperium, they didn't have Titans, artillery, etc. When Kraken showed up, it had those, after encountering them and figuring out "Hey, those might be useful."

[speaker-to-trolls]

Well in a way most are. The Zerg, for one, and i would think also Tyranids since basically they have no science, no technology whatsoever, only their own natural defenses and evolution to help them. They're not 'advanced', in fact they're primative, they're just better predators and have numbers on their side.

Actually, whatever their creators may say, evolution has little or nothing to do with the Zerg or the Tyranids, what they do is absorb the DNA of other beings and put it to use in some way, i.e: the tyranids ate some Eldar at one point, they absorbed the Eldar psyker gene and voila, Zoanthropes!. Evolution, the process of superior biological specimens passing on their genes to the next generation, is not what's at work here, the Hive mind/Overmind is consciously working to improve its minions by using the DNA it has captured.

[Noble Ire]

With that logic, I could say the Zerg and half of those b10t3KKK nuts are just animals and not biotek crappers.

Well in a way most are. The Zerg, for one, and i would think also Tyranids since basically they have no science, no technology whatsoever, only their own natural defenses and evolution to help them. They're not 'advanced', in fact they're primative, they're just better predators and have numbers on their side.

The Vorlons and Shadows clearly, however, use actual organic-based technology. Not animals or anything, but creatures genetically engineered to serve the purpose of a machine. The Vong too, and Species from ST Voyager. That, IMO, is biotech. It's science and machines, with natural evolution cut out.

Comparing the two...bio-aliens like teh Zerg and 'nids do rely heavily on numerical superiority to survive. Because, naturally, they're just animals usually led by a bigger, smarter animal like Overmind or the Hive Mind and they are weaker than most. Bio-tech has a tendancy to be, in the cases shown, more advanced in some ways than inorganic tcehnology for whatever reason. Like it or not, a Vorlon bioship is better than a EA destroyer, biotech being the main reason in that case.

I know, of course, people around here hate biotech. Me, i dont care, cliched aliens and shit is fun, i go with it. But there is a difference between a Zergling and a Vong warrior, one is a guy in a suit of armor the other is an animal with a shell and claws. The two arent the same really any more than a tiger and a Marine, one has natural strength and defenses the other has a machine gun and kevlar.

Forgive me if this sounds like splitting hairs, i know it's boardering on that...

Dont really have a problem with biotech, if its used right. For instance, Vorlon and Shadows ships look organic, use organic components, and some even seem to have minds, but there not really living organisms. They're just technology heavily modifed with biological influences.
I never had a problem with the Vong either, because in the end, good old metal and circuitry is turns out to be all around better. Same with the Zerg, since they're strategies usually involve either tricking the enemy into destroying itself or "infesting" actual tech and using it. In a fair fight with the humans or Protoss, they cant win without as they say "drowning their opponents in Zerg blood."

But I really dislike ST biotech, especially Species 8472. They're just wankistiacally powerful. I mean almost destroying the Borg in inside a month? Common.

[Lord Zentei]

Actually, whatever their creators may say, evolution has little or nothing to do with the Zerg or the Tyranids, what they do is absorb the DNA of other beings and put it to use in some way, i.e: the tyranids ate some Eldar at one point, they absorbed the Eldar psyker gene and voila, Zoanthropes!. Evolution, the process of superior biological specimens passing on their genes to the next generation, is not what's at work here, the Hive mind/Overmind is consciously working to improve its minions by using the DNA it has captured.

Small nitpick: it is Darwinian evolution - i.e. evolution by natural selection - that is not at work. Evolution in general is merely the change of the ratio/presence of alleles of the genepool from one generation to the other. In this regard Tyranids certainly do evolve.

18, the weapons the Tyranids carry include such things as: fleshbores, venom cannons, spike rifles, etc. These are guns, and they are not constructed, they are grown. This is biotech.

[Stark]

The worst part is that since the nids were intended to be a big threat, GW were FORCED to say things like 'stealers kill Terminators', no matter how utterly retarded that is. Simply because otherwise the nids are a non-factor, and indeed in the late 20th century, they WERE pretty much a non-factor until they were augmented with some new vehicles.

Still, puts a nice upper limit on Terminator armour! *hides*

[Junghalli]

The Tyrannids are the most blatent users of biotech in all the scifi I've read.

I rather liked the way the Tyrannids were done. You can't tell where the Tyrannid race proper ends and their machines begins. The clear line between man and tool that most species have just doesn't exist with them. It's very alien.

You know, if the writer using an alien culture to express his view on what he considers a posetive and ribbing his fellow humans a bit in the process is all it takes to make a cliché, it seems that there is little hope for science fiction, which is after all all about presenting an alternative to what we have, while analyzing the impact of hypothetical technology. Unless all idealized societies are made out as human, except that has been dissed elsewhere in this thread.

I have no problem with what you describe. The author blatantly extolling the virtues of what he considers a better society than ours, pointedly ignoring or defending all its problems while endlessly tossing off to its advantages, does get to me.
Let me put it this way; the neanderthals (the book takes place on an alternate earth where humans went extinct instead of neanderthals) eleminate "violent genes" from their species by automatically castrating or sterilizing the relatives of anyone who commits a crime. They do the same to people who score in the bottom 5% on their equivalent of an IQ test. This is, of course, despite the fact that as we all know criminal behavior is almost certainly usually a factor of environment, not genetics. But it matters not, your brother commited a crime so you must share his bad genes, ergo off with your balls. Sawyer never fully adresses this humongous skeleton in their closet, while all the while he continues to wank about how they have no war, are more tolerant than us, more enlightened than us etc. The thing is the first two books were good, but I guess he just couldn't contain the urge to rip his pants off and start furiously masturbating after a certain point. It made me so mad!

[Coalition]

For the Tyranids, their Hive Mind did provide a nice weakness. Spoiler:

In "Warriors of Ultramar" the Death company manages to get on board the last Tyranid Hive ship, and infect the Norn Queen (highest ranking Tyranid mind) with a mutagenic disease. It basically sends her adaptaion gene into overdrive, forcing evolution through her body, and sending her panic through all the lower forces as well. Every ship, large critter, etc. felt her pain, and they effectively died. The smaller critters were without guidance, and turned on each other.

For the fleets though, in the WH40k game, I had an idea about Hive ships getting to use as many escorts as they want. Current rules limit a fleet to having only 2 Cruisers and up to 12 Escorts per Hive ship. It often results in 2 Hive ships, 4 cruisers, plus escorts. If allowed infinite escorts (within points limits), that would make the battle easier, but there are a lot of escorts to get through.

For the super-enlightened species, the fun part is when they get attacked, and all their aggressive genes are bred out, and they either run, or die.

"We are enlightened, we are superior, we have eliminated war, we are getting our asses kicked and need your help!"

Of course, the idea about killing off the stupids in their society does have merits. You have to be careful, as the stupid gene is far more resilient than any actual mental retardation (Tech support actually prefers mental retardation, as they will take the time to listen, vs the idiots who know computers, and broke their cupholder).

[18-Till-I-Die]

For the super-enlightened species, the fun part is when they get attacked, and all their aggressive genes are bred out, and they either run, or die.

"We are enlightened, we are superior, we have eliminated war, we are getting our asses kicked and need your help!"

Yeah i put an identical situation in one of my SF stories, Terra Legion.

These aliens, Nas, have evolved into this pacifistic, uber-high tech race with no memory of war or violence and are forced to find mercenaries to help fight the invading mantis-like aliens, the Krell (who are, yes, bio-tech using uber baddies a la the Tyranids )

So the Nas hire Humans and after a long war we drove the Krell back out to their galaxy, Andromeda. In exchange Humans get paid handsomely, and eventually become known as the 'Mercs'. In the Terra Legion universe, humans are the bestest mercenaries in the Five Galaxies, if you're intending to fight a war you want humans on the front line! So it has human-wanking too!

[Darth Wong]

The alien cliches I hate the most:

1. Star Trek "forehead of the week", as mentioned by others.
2. Deeply religious alien cultures. Why does it seem that most aliens nowadays are not just religious, but deeply religious, with just one lame-assed half-baked religion for the entire race? From one-dimensional "warrior culture" religions like the Klingons' religion to "we live for the hunt" bullshit like the Predators, it's fucking irritating.
3. Spacefaring civilizations whose homeworld architecture is composed of primitive hewn stone. I don't know why this is so common, but it is. Perhaps it's supposed to show how these superior aliens are spiritual or respect their traditions or some other shit, but it just looks fucking stupid.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think it's because "stone" is cheap to build for a set.

[SylasGaunt]

I tend not to lump the 'nids in with the usual Bio-Tech crowd.. mostly because 'nid biotech isn't superior to regular tech and one-on-one 'nid stuff is inferior to that of the Imperium. Problem is you're never fighting them one-on-one.

[Nephtys]

I think it's because "stone" is cheap to build for a set.

Yes, much like how in the 1960's-70's, all planets were believed to be composed of cheap scrub and large foam boulders.

[Black Admiral]

Still, puts a nice upper limit on Terminator armour! *hides*

No it doesn't. 'stealers cheat.