Just what was the Emperor's ultimate goal?

[NecronLord]

They have better theme music,

Actually, I find the music from the ceremony at the end of ANH to be better than the Imperial March.

better uniforms,

That I'll give you.

better equipment,

Bigger budget. The Rebel designs are at least as cool as the Imperial ones.

better ships,

*Looks at Mon Cal ships and X-Wings* You're kidding right?

[18-Till-I-Die]

You have to admit an ISD is a way sweeter ride than a dinky Mon Cal cruiser. I alwasy wanted to take one out and melt the surfaces of some uninhabited moons for fun.

[NecronLord]

Err. Mon Cal cruisers range from 'dinky' to ISD crushing 3 Km monsters.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I've never got the urge some people, especially some posters on this board, have to make the Empire out to be the good guys in SW. It's like fictional holocaust denial.

I don't really agree. I think it is looking at things more skeptically, rather than swallowing the Rebel viewpoint whole.

Despite being conceived in that manner?

SoD. Besides, said conceivers just don't think things through. As an example, if they were going to say the Empire discriminates against Sullustans (what DESB wants to say), maybe Sullustans should do a little better when they are placed in charge. Uninspiring monotones and careerist officers (what SbS said)?

Otherwise yeah, it's weird. Usually people rooting for the bad guys means the story was poorly written (ie: the good guy characters are so unlikable, you can't help it)...

That's part of it (the unlikable). I mean ... the Rebels incite a second Galactic Civil War. Force knows how many billions or trillions died from their impudence ... so they can make ... umm, the New Republic ... who loses 365 trillion in a third galactic war against this one world power and gets its capital overrun due to its total incompetence and lack of cohesion? These bastards deserved to win? I suppose I don't have to repeat my stuff about the first rule of starting revolutions.

In another sense, sometimes the Rebels (especially the NJO Jedi) are so "goody-goody" that they do become a little nauseating. That's another part. It is bad to collapse some rocks over a Vong - instead you must risk your butt engaging them in close in lightsaber action. Can't use Centerpoint Station as a weapon (and in the fuckup kill your own allies). Can't kill one of their new worldships (attacking their logistics) ...

The other part of "poorly written" is often true as well. How many times did the Rebellion / New Republic really deserve to win against the Empire in terms of preparation and forces available? Compare that to how many times the authors gave them cop outs so they can win. Do the latter too much and the entire piece is soured.

The third part of "poorly written" is true again. For example, one of the core crimes of the Empire is supposedly racism. Yet the "equality" covering of the New Republic is thinner than tissue paper (see Solo Command). This amalgamation of different species couldn't pull together. The Empire condones slavery, yet even the Jedi Order turns out to be a conscript/slave society (slave in that their servititude is generally permanent, conscript in that they are sent to all kinds of dangerous situations).

Palpy may have been a villain (one may also note he's, like the Rebels, outnumbered by some 10000 Jedi), but one can see the careful preparations he made and his patience. The universe was right to give him a victory - it was Equivalent Exchange. It was hard fought and well deserved. The NR didn't do enough to make me think the same way, even though it is nominally "good" (especially after I realized exactly what they had created from NJO).

The NR feels like something the Force (authors) backed mindlessly. Because it backed it too much, it isn't really able to do anything, and when the Force can't back it anymore, it collapsed and took out hundreds of trillions of lives.

I thought Lando was hired by the Rebellion? They made him a General after all. Han more or less joined the Rebels though, until they fucked over Leia and him at some point, which was when he gave them the finger. I think it was over the arranged marriage farce

Both of them became Generals. Presumably, they were hired.

[Vympel]

Actually, I find the music from the ceremony at the end of ANH to be better than the Imperial March.

Well, that's because you have bad taste, obviously

Bigger budget. The Rebel designs are at least as cool as the Imperial ones.

Which designs are you thinking about?

*Looks at Mon Cal ships and X-Wings* You're kidding right?

Mon Cal ships are inferior to Imperial vessels, both canonically and from a purely aesthetic standpoint-

to the former:

"Sir, we don't stand much of a chance against those Star Destroyers. They out-gun us, and they're more heavily armored."

"I know," Ackbar said softly.

And aesthetically- huge daggers look much more menacing than huge sausages.

As for X-Wings, it is the best looking starfighter in all of science fiction from now until the end of time, as far as I'm concerned, but that's pretty much the only cool ship the Rebel Alliance has. All their other ships are snooze-worthy.

[Vympel]

Forgive me, but I don't see the problem. Besides, a person's goals can easily change over 20 years, even without multiple goal transitions. Besides, if Darth Vader is his goal, he failed to get it, so he might as well try something else.

As Lucas has said, his something else goal was replacement with Luke. If we're talking the real Emperor, not some dying, insane Clone, then that's what his motivations were.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

As Lucas has said, his something else goal was replacement with Luke. If we're talking the real Emperor, not some dying, insane Clone, then that's what his motivations were.

It is kind of consistent. I suppose that it is not only one person who noticed that Palpy was rather "careless" with Luke, letting him control this and that right after he is converted, without making sure he really converted fully.

[NecronLord]

I don't really agree. I think it is looking at things more skeptically, rather than swallowing the Rebel viewpoint whole.

That I feel is the problem with a lot of people on this board. Claims that the Empire are not the bad guys, or not as evil as depicted, just aren't backed up by the evidence. All the evidence suggests that the Rebels are almost as white as driven snow and that the Empire is black as tar. Any argument to the other side usually consists of 'but the evidence is biased in favour of the rebels' or some such. Without exception, the Imperial Apologist arguments I've seen basically boil down to 'The empire can't be that bad, I refuse to believe it.'

Both of them became Generals. Presumably, they were hired.

It seems fairly clear from ANH that the monetary rewards are not that good in the Alliance. I don't see why either Lando or Han would be in much need of cash either. Lando at the very least should have plenty of 'savings' stashed around the place.

Vympel

Smallarms and atmospheric fliers such as the snowspeeders. One could say the Imperial Walkers are cool, but I always cringe when I see them.

Mon Cal ships were doubtless inferior to the star destroyers at Endor, what with being outnumbered, and having the Excecutor counted among the Star Destroyers. And I was actually thinking of the winged ones.

[Vympel]

That I feel is the problem with a lot of people on this board. Claims that the Empire are not the bad guys, or not as evil as depicted, just aren't backed up by the evidence. All the evidence suggests that the Rebels are almost as white as driven snow and that the Empire is black as tar. Any argument to the other side usually consists of 'but the evidence is biased in favour of the rebels' or some such. Without exception, the Imperial Apologist arguments I've seen basically boil down to 'The empire can't be that bad, I refuse to believe it.'

Who seriously makes the "Empire is not evil" argument though? When was the last debate we had?

[NecronLord]

It usually takes the form of 'the destruction of Alderann was justified, because a few dozen billion people are nothing on the galactic scale.' I distinctly recall that argument in SWvST a month or two ago.

[Vympel]

It usually takes the form of 'the destruction of Alderann was justified, because a few dozen billion people are nothing on the galactic scale.' I distinctly recall that argument in SWvST a month or two ago.

I recall Mike using the destruction of Alderaan as a tool to bludgeon people over the head with for their inconsistency- if you accept, as all moral people should, that destroying Alderaan was evil, because the ends (ending the Rebellion, destructive conflict, bring order to the galaxy) don't justify the means (obliterating the planet) then you should also agree that destroying Hiroshima and Nagaski via nuclear weaponry was evil. Of course, a lot of people's bullshit-jingoism switches will activate at that proposition.

The debate was back in October, IIRC.

[NecronLord]

Nah. That was in N&P. There was a far more recent one, that consisted of 'Leia's guards had guns, thus Alderann was armed, thus it was a military target'

[18-Till-I-Die]

And aesthetically- huge daggers look much more menacing than huge sausages.

Thats not what she said!

*rimshot*

[Lord of the Farce]

It's like how the Rebels weren't totally good, because they hire pirates and smugglers and other outlaws (and for every Han Solo and Lando Calrissian, there are probably others who are less... warm and fuzzy)

I would be highly surprised if they're allowed to get away with doing unsavory things on Rebel pay. Hell, neither of them was hired by the rebels anyway,

I thought Lando was hired by the Rebellion? They made him a General after all. Han more or less joined the Rebels though, until they fucked over Leia and him at some point, which was when he gave them the finger. I think it was over the arranged marriage farce.

On the Rebel's association with unsavory characters (edit: smugglers and "privateers"), there's what we know from "Rebel Dawn" (third book of Crispin's Han Solo Triology).

IIRC: Basically, Han and a huge bunch of other smugglers were convinced to join in an operation to raid Ylesia, then the Rebels backstabbed Han's lot and took their share of the treasure at gunpoint, then Han was shunned because the others believed that he was in on it. This event was apparently the reason why Han reacted so negatively to the Rebels at first, and what Lando was pissed off at Han about.

And if anybody wants to say that this was the work of "rogue" Rebels, then I suppose the operation that got the Death Star plans to Tantive IV and Leia at Toprawa was also by "rogues", since both were done by the same people.

[His Divine Shadow]

I kinda liked the hot dog ships more than the winged ones....

[Crossroads Inc.]

I love how he comes across in the ROTS novelisation: -snip- Such an arsehole, but at times hilariously written..

Oh God! That is fricking Hysterical! Oh PLease say he says that in the Movie too?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Nah. That was in N&P. There was a far more recent one, that consisted of 'Leia's guards had guns, thus Alderann was armed, thus it was a military target'

I remember only those in PSW (and only participated in two of those - and those two were extremely closely related and occurred on the same time period). These strawmen make me wonder which side is more off its rocker, ours or yours. For a bunch of people who had the "easier" position to defend, your side's performance was laughably poor.

By the way, the first two parts of what you just said followed. Certainly that alone killed off any claims of it being totally unarmed and pacifist. But The emphasis was IIRC on it being a Strategic Target, which it most certainly, undeniably is, and is shaping up to be even more of one thanks to Bail's efforts.

The other card is as Vympel stated - the Hiroshima card. Generally, opposition try to do gyrations forcing some kind of scheme where Hiroshima is OK but Alderaan is not. I prefer simpler morality schemes. Related to that is of course the Deterrence card, which is backed by the Tarkin Doctrine

But none of that is as laughable as the Alternatives shit. You know "Tarkin could have done X!"

The best among them were merely situationally suitable, by which meaning if the assumptions of the holder came to pass, yes the alternative might work. Of course, they can't prove said assumption was a fact. Generally, this applies to sieges or threats. Of course, it will be assumed the Aldies had low supplies and have low will, so they will surrender quick quick clean clean.

More unforgivable were those that would not have been tolerated anywhere but on that thread due to violation of what was definitely (and commonly) known. I swear I had to explain twice in one thread to two different people (and I know for certain I had to do it once with Kurgan) about why the idea of using E24W class power output destroyers to attack the E37J class rated shield is not a feasible idea! Do you think any group member would have survived making such questions on any other day?

I also had to explain about why Vader didn't use his fucking Force tricks to trick the shield operators below to lower the shields! This despite the fact he didn't do in on Hoth (and he didn't have the brute force option then)!

Then there was the one that suggested the DS somehow adjust its power to within gradations of one one-trillionth (one one-millionth to avoid the leakage exceeding the GPE, but even that will completely destroy the planet) or so, and judge the power of the offending shield (which is in flux) to the same precision, so they can crack the shield and the leakage won't wipe the planet! Hmm, assuming capabilities not in existence. Hmm?

Funniest of all is that Rogue 9 (one of the opposition) IIRC said even if the Empire did try whatever he said to try and it didn't work, he still won't be mollified. Then why propose an alternative in the first place?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Near the end of that thread, Graeme Dice moved in. While his accusations about me being a third-rate (ASVS standards) "Imp-apologist" debater with few innovations is sadly correct, he was really in no place to say such things at the time since he was acting more like a troll during the debate. I'm sure I made some tactical mistakes myself during the debate, it was honestly the weakest performance I've seen him do. Even if we do come up with counterevidence about clear limits, the first thing he does is dismiss it. He eventually comes to the conclusion it is better to have the incompetent NR and have everyone wiped out by the Vong than the Empire. Hmm...

It is thus my experience that for some reason, this debate tends to bring out the least rational side of our opposition. For an "easy" position, such an effect is most wierd. Which is probably one of the reasons why I try not to reignite such things (the other being that it is very draining to engage in such sustained debate).

This is my perhaps biased view of the situation, though of course, nothing could beat that one-line position you written for "bias".

[NecronLord]

Here's the thing. Hiroshima was evil. So was Alderann. And, for the record, I would be utterly amazed if the Death Star was incapable of bringing down the shields without destroying the planet beneath. I would also be surprised if when threatened with ultimate destruction (TM) Bail Organa wouldn't lower the shields.

And on the subject of Alderann being a military target. No. Some Alderannians were military targets. The vast majority were not. It is rather like saying Nagasaki was a military target because they also destroyed a Japanese Military Airfield with 'Fat Man.'

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Here's the thing. Hiroshima was evil.

That's an interesting change from the usual. OK. But do you think it was a "necessary evil" or not?

And, for the record, I would be utterly amazed if the Death Star was incapable of bringing down the shields without destroying the planet beneath.

Considering the precision requirements (and you need to roll it three times, once for the correct DER analysis of the shield strength at point of impact, a second to set the beam modulations correctly, a third to fire it at the right moment, all to within a trillionth just to avoid complete destruction of the planet!) I'd be surprised if it is feasible.

OK, now. The standard question. Suppose they tried it. They failed. Since even missing the count by a millionth means exceeding the GPE limit most likely you'd see the planet breaking up anyway. And certainly you'd see the planet being rather trashed and its population lost. Then what would you have said.

I would also be surprised if when threatened with ultimate destruction (TM) Bail Organa wouldn't lower the shields.

You see this situational crap? If he was so soft, maybe he wouldn't have raised the fucker in the first place, or sent his daughter to steal the plans. He was almost certainly gambling his shield would withstand the attack, which considering what happened (we use E37J to make a conservative point, but the shield actually blocked most of the attack) was actually a quite understandable gamble. It just didn't work...

And on the subject of Alderann being a military target. No. Some Alderannians were military targets. The vast majority were not. It is rather like saying Nagasaki was a military target because they also destroyed a Japanese Military Airfield with 'Fat Man.'

The emphasis is on "Strategic Target", which in most people's moralities are valid targets for attack.

[NecronLord]

That's an interesting change from the usual. OK. But do you think it was a "necessary evil" or not?

While the demonstration was helpful in ending the war, there is no doubt that it could have been made without so much loss of life. Nagasaki was most certainly not a necessary evil, and was mainly carried out to test the plutonium bomb.

Considering the precision requirements (and you need to roll it three times, once for the correct DER analysis of the shield strength at point of impact, a second to set the beam modulations correctly, a third to fire it at the right moment, all to within a trillionth just to avoid complete destruction of the planet!) I'd be surprised if it is feasible.

Roll it? Where's this from? WEG?

You see this situational crap? If he was so soft, maybe he wouldn't have raised the fucker in the first place, or sent his daughter to steal the plans. He was almost certainly gambling his shield would withstand the attack, which considering what happened (we use E37J to make a conservative point, but the shield actually blocked most of the attack) was actually a quite understandable gamble. It just didn't work...

That doesn't gel with what else we know of his character. I would be amazed if his political commitments extend to the slaughter of his own people.

The emphasis is on "Strategic Target", which in most people's moralities are valid targets for attack.

Are you climing that most people find the idea of destroying strategic targets, IE Cities, in wars againt vastly inferior opponents acceptable?

[NecronLord]

I would also suggest that the surface turbolaser and (especially) ion cannon armament of the Death Star would have been helpful in dealing with the problem of Alderannian shields.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hence Luke.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

While the demonstration was helpful in ending the war, there is no doubt that it could have been made without so much loss of life. Nagasaki was most certainly not a necessary evil, and was mainly carried out to test the plutonium bomb.

Alternative Ideas for Hiroshima?

Roll it? Where's this from? WEG?

I meant "roll" in an euphemistic sense. The three basic stages to successfully piercing the shield without totally destroying the planet are as listed. Each must be successful to the listed tolerances.

If this was from WEG, a fair rating for this effort (assuming the machinery even allows for it) might be Heroic (for not breaking up the planet) and Heroic+30 (for not totally destroying the life onboard), Heroic+40 to avoid a Mass Extinction Event, Heroic+60 for nothing worse than a large nuke. Hell, mandating the use of two Force Points is more like it - it is that difficult. Anyway, Roll that three times. The first roll is on Sensors skill , the second (OK, I'd let you put the last two in a combined roll) is on Superlaser Gunnery (a specialization IIRC). EDIT: Maybe add a roll on Shields (the gunner must understand the precise nature of shielding) to correctly set his weapon.

EDIT: Oh, now that I think of it, those are the difficulties for the Energy half of the Shield Problem. The beam also has associated Momentum. Now the Sensors crew has to correctly determine the composition of the various pillars and forcefields anchoring all those shield projectors (good luck seeing all that beneath the shield through kilometers of Earth). The Gunner has to understand the implication of all the compositions of both the structure and the surrounding geology. One might represent this WEGitely with Heroic rolls for Geology, Engineering (a specialization just for shields here) and perhaps Engineering Geology. Good luck making your Sensor-Gun crew pass all that.

That doesn't gel with what else we know of his character. I would be amazed if his political commitments extend to the slaughter of his own people.

If he wasn't willing to chance the "slaughter" of his own people, maybe he wouldn't have made Aldie one of the three initial signatories for the Corellian Treaty (He sent his fucking Foreign Minister to do some of the negotations for Chrissakes - good luck saying now that the whole planet ain't on it) Or sent the planet's Senator to go grab the plans. And if he was going to show submissiveness, he could have lowered the shield.

Are you climing that most people find the idea of destroying strategic targets, IE Cities, in wars againt vastly inferior opponents acceptable?

Most people find it reasonable justifiable when it came to bombing Germany and Japan. Japan certainly qualified as a "Vastly inferior opponent" by the time the firebombings came up to speed.

I would also suggest that the surface turbolaser and (especially) ion cannon armament of the Death Star would have been helpful in dealing with the problem of Alderannian shields.

Oh yes, I forgot this one. People already proposed this in my last thread too. Unless the TLs and ion cannons alone can break up a planet (as far as I know, that's not the case), they won't make an appreciable dent in the situation.

[Vympel]

Nah. That was in N&P. There was a far more recent one, that consisted of 'Leia's guards had guns, thus Alderann was armed, thus it was a military target'

Nah, it was here- it was a thread about the ITW, IIRC.

As for Alderaan- it was armed and the planet's government was an enemy of the Galactic Empire and thus a combatant in Civil War, but that's still no justification.

[NecronLord]

Alternative Ideas for Hiroshima?

If nothing else, there were better sites for demonstration inside Japan itself, as opposed to a major city.

I meant "roll" in an euphemistic sense. The three basic stages to successfully piercing the shield without totally destroying the planet are as listed. Each must be successful to the listed tolerances.

If this was from WEG, a fair rating for this effort (assuming the machinery even allows for it) might be Heroic (for not breaking up the planet) and Heroic+30 (for not totally destroying the life onboard), Heroic+40 to avoid a Mass Extinction Event, Heroic+60 for nothing worse than a large nuke. Hell, mandating the use of two Force Points is more like it - it is that difficult. Anyway, Roll that three times. The first roll is on Sensors skill , the second (OK, I'd let you put the last two in a combined roll) is on Superlaser Gunnery (a specialization IIRC). EDIT: Maybe add a roll on Shields (the gunner must understand the precise nature of shielding) to correctly set his weapon.

Sounds very iffy to me. They can target and destroy a single mon cal cruiser with the second one, it sounds unlikely that they can't just fire at one of the Alderannian shields until it goes offline. Torpedo spheres, IIRC, are able to do something very similar to this.

If he wasn't willing to chance the "slaughter" of his own people, maybe he wouldn't have made Aldie one of the three initial signatories for the Corellian Treaty (He sent his fucking Foreign Minister to do some of the negotations for Chrissakes - good luck saying now that the whole planet ain't on it) Or sent the planet's Senator to go grab the plans. And if he was going to show submissiveness, he could have lowered the shield.

Even so, I would find it exteremly unrealistic if Bail Organa or someone else (after disposing of the aforesaid Organa) would not surrender under such duress.

Most people find it reasonable justifiable when it came to bombing Germany and Japan. Japan certainly qualified as a "Vastly inferior opponent" by the time the firebombings came up to speed.

Yes. Most people who say that those are justified are from America or other Allied countries, there is an element of patriotism at work. They don't tend to support the bombing of Coventry in the same way they support the far fiercer bombing of Dresden. Even then, these things are regarded as necessery evils.

Oh yes, I forgot this one. People already proposed this in my last thread too. Unless the TLs and ion cannons alone can break up a planet (as far as I know, that's not the case), they won't make an appreciable dent in the situation.

I don't see why they couldn't, given time. It certainly has plenty of surface area to put such systems on. There is also the fact that Ion Cannons are at worst, minimally interactive with shields. We know that in universe seige weapons such as Torpedo Spheres are able to bring down this kind of shield. I would be amazed if the Death Star was built without those same capabilities.