Yuuzhan Vong VS Earth Force Marines

[EmperorSolo51]

2,500 Earth Force Marines land on a planet occupied by 2,400 Yuuzhan Vong Wariors in the SW universe. The Gropos's goal is to take the planet by destroying the Vong. The Earth Force marines are supported by 200 Attack Helicopters and 100 Thunderbolt Starfuries. The Vong are supported by 300 Corral Skippers. The terrain is on a grassy savanah. So, Who wins?

[Pablo Sanchez]

IIRC, the body armor the Yuuzhan Vong warriors is tough enough to resist shots from blasters. B5 PPGs are quivalent in firepower to blasters, at best. Therefore I believe that the YV troops will be able to close range to a point where they can engage the Earth Force Marines with their own weapons, and they will probably win. If not for their armor, they would die horribly.

[EmperorSolo51]

Here is Earth Force PPG Rifle Data. http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/weapons/ ... rifle.html

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, that weapon has power that is well lower than the firepower of SW blasters. Since blasters in SW do not penetrate YV armor, we must assume that the Yuuzhan Vong would be able to resist PPG fire.

BTW, during the war, Minbari and Human troops fought each other. Much of this combat took place at melee combat ranges. Yuuzhan Vong are stronger than people, faster than people, and have weapons and armor that surpasses that of the Minbari. The GROPOS would stand no chance at melee range, and their ranged weapons have been shown to be ineffective.

In the air, the coralskippers can easily absorb weapons fire from X-Wings, sometimes to their bare hulls, without dying every time. Since the Thunderbolt's firepower is MUCH smaller than that of an X-Wing, we must believe that the Coralskippers would win easily in the air, leaving the GROPOS exposed and vulnerable.

BTW, this scenario ignores the fact that the YV do no really occuppy planets the way we do (with massive numbers of troops). Instead, they kill everything on it and start its eco-system changing for them. Then they either evacuate or place huge numbers of slaves on the ground, which would be used in defense of the planet if it was attacked.

[Crown]

I am sooooo sick of the YV and their bloody uber armor! This is just a general bitch at the NJO series, not anyones post just so we are clear.

Anyway, IIRC, they don't wear helmets, so aim for the head, will be my advice to any infantry engaging them. Also I would re-issue old slug throwers, why? Because they impart momentum, which would at the very least knock those YV suckers on their arses for a second. Also bullets pulverise instead of leaving neat little holes, so I assume since their bloody armour is living, a few rounds of bullets will kill them, and their wearers nicely!

[Pablo Sanchez]

I am sooooo sick of the YV and their bloody uber armor! This is just a general bitch at the NJO series, not anyones post just so we are clear.

It pisses me off, too.

Anyway, IIRC, they don't wear helmets, so aim for the head, will be my advice to any infantry engaging them.

Nobody is good enough to pull that off. The YV could lose a small number of troops to that tactic, but not enough to make a difference.

Also I would re-issue old slug throwers, why? Because they impart momentum, which would at the very least knock those YV suckers on their arses for a second.

Frickin' Hollywood...

As someone who knows at least something about firearms, I feel it is my duty to point out that bullets have shit for momentum. Unless you issue each soldier a Browning .50 cal HMG, their fire is not going to knock the YV down. The image you get from movies of bullets sending people flying across the room is a complete fabrication. Newtonian physics dictate that the momentum transfered from the bullet to the target is equal to the recoil force of the weapon being fired. So in order for your rifle to knock someone in body armor down from pure momentum, it will also throw you on your ass.

heheheh...

This reminds me of IXJac's one thread on SB, where he claimed that bullets do not penetrate due to force and pressure. Early on, E1701 claimed that modern rifles could kill through stormtrooper armor, because they would shatter bones and cause massive internal injury just from momentum transfer. What a moron.

Also bullets pulverise instead of leaving neat little holes, so I assume since their bloody armour is living, a few rounds of bullets will kill them, and their wearers nicely!

Blasters do not leave neat little holes. On high power settings, they blow big chunks from masonry walls. The bolt has about the same momentum as a modern firearm (judging from recoil force), but much greater effect on the target, because the plasma violently explodes on impact. Bullets will probably be harmlessly deflected from the YV body armor while they wade through the GROPOS.

[Master of Ossus]

You cannot knock someone down with a bullet unless the weapon penetrates his body armor and causes him to pass out/die.

Even if the Yuuzhan Vong lose troops to weapons fire aimed for their heads, it would really be irrelevent in the grand scheme of things. Their ships and soldiers are just more powerful than those available in B5. BTW, Yuuzhan Vong DO appear to wear helmets. Han comments in Balance Point that he can aim for their little breath masks with his blaster, as well as their armpits. I think that implies that the rest of their heads are protected in some manner.

I, too, am tired of their living armor, although I see why it was necessary to make battles between Jedi and YV appear to be at least reasonably fair. I DON'T understand why all Jedi are so easily able to cut between the armor, and in Dark Tide II the author appeared to be unclear on whether or not lightsabers cauterized wounds, commenting that if they did not, then the YV warrior Corran (the little prick) fights would bleed to death, even though less than THREE PAGES EARLIER he was wiping blood from his arm from a wound CAUSED BY A LIGHTSABER!

[Mr. B]

The Marines would be slaughtered.

BTW, I think that the YV uberweapons are unbelieveably stupid. To think some turtle shell could stop blaster fire and lightsabers. These writers have been watching too much Star Trek.

[Crown]

Originally posted by Pablo Sanchez
Nobody is good enough to pull that off. The YV could lose a small number of troops to that tactic, but not enough to make a difference.

I conceed the point

Frickin' Hollywood...

As someone who knows at least something about firearms, I feel it is my duty to point out that bullets have shit for momentum. Unless you issue each soldier a Browning .50 cal HMG, their fire is not going to knock the YV down. The image you get from movies of bullets sending people flying across the room is a complete fabrication. Newtonian physics dictate that the momentum transfered from the bullet to the target is equal to the recoil force of the weapon being fired. So in order for your rifle to knock someone in body armor down from pure momentum, it will also throw you on your ass.

heheheh...

And I have the audacity to consider myself an Engineering student! Some on slap me!

Blasters do not leave neat little holes. On high power settings, they blow big chunks from masonry walls. The bolt has about the same momentum as a modern firearm (judging from recoil force), but much greater effect on the target, because the plasma violently explodes on impact. Bullets will probably be harmlessly deflected from the YV body armor while they wade through the GROPOS.

Not too sure about blaster characteristics, however what I was trying to say, rather poorly, is that bullets tend to pulverise internal organs, leading to death. And the jist that I got from the NJO series was that the armour actually absorbs blaster shots, how I don't know, but what I was saying that the hail of bullets would just end making living armour, dead armour and I think less effective

Originally posted by Master of Ossus
Their ships and soldiers are just more powerful than those available in B5.

True, and I didn't factor that in, I conceed. YV win. Man I hate those rejects!

[Dead on Arrival]

A PPG pistol or rifle on its highest setting can penetrate metal bulkheads, blast doors, or what have you. They also have access to higher powered energy weapons, similiar to the ones used by the Centauri against the Shadows in 'Into the Fire'. They are about equal to blasters, but lack in the energy-storage/battery department. However, given the size and nature of a B5-'cap' that isn't that big of a disadvantage.

As to whether a PPG would match up against YV armor, beats the hell out of me. I read the first book in the NJO series, and then gave up...

[Pablo Sanchez]

As to whether a PPG would match up against YV armor, beats the hell out of me. I read the first book in the NJO series, and then gave up...

Me too.

Crown:
I did not know that the YV armor absorbed the bolt, rather than surviving it due to simple strength. If that's the case, then it might be possible to use something like a battle rifle (FN-FAL for example) to kill them.

[Oberleutnant]

JMS himself has stated in one of his Usenet posts that PPGs are primarily only used on space stations and other places where the risk of blasting a hole in the hull exists. According to him and some tech manuals also projectile weapons are used by the Earthforce.

In my opinion Babylon 5 is the best tv-series ever, light years ahead of any Trek, though I understand if not everyone is keen to the idea of a five-year story arc.

[Master of Ossus]

JMS himself has stated in one of his Usenet posts that PPGs are primarily only used on space stations and other places where the risk of blasting a hole in the hull exists. According to him and some tech manuals also projectile weapons are used by the Earthforce.

In my opinion Babylon 5 is the best tv-series ever, light years ahead of any Trek, though I understand if not everyone is keen to the idea of a five-year story arc.

I agree completely: B5 RULES. Its story arc was nothing short of superb, and it had a great premise.

In "In the Beginning" Lando says "When they [the humans] ran out of weapons, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used sticks, stones, and their bare hands...." Clearly, the guns he is referring to are slugthrowers, and he doesn't think very highly of them. On the other hand, he IS one of the Centauri, so maybe they use different weapons than the humans.

[Pablo Sanchez]

In "In the Beginning" Lando says "When they [the humans] ran out of weapons, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used sticks, stones, and their bare hands...." Clearly, the guns he is referring to are slugthrowers, and he doesn't think very highly of them. On the other hand, he IS one of the Centauri, so maybe they use different weapons than the humans.

I don't understand why so many Sci-Fi races use energy weapons in preference to simple chemical propelled slugs. Despite the weight of ammo, they're still highly effective against soft targets. I'd like to see a Klingon do anything with his Bat'leth after his chest has been perforated by a dozen .223 rounds. In SW I can understand it, because they have the materials for police and soldiers to be equipped with body armor that renders slug-throwers useless.

But an M16 would be incredibly useful against rampaging Klingons or Centauri or what-have-you.

[Master of Ossus]

In "In the Beginning" Lando says "When they [the humans] ran out of weapons, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used sticks, stones, and their bare hands...." Clearly, the guns he is referring to are slugthrowers, and he doesn't think very highly of them. On the other hand, he IS one of the Centauri, so maybe they use different weapons than the humans.

I don't understand why so many Sci-Fi races use energy weapons in preference to simple chemical propelled slugs. Despite the weight of ammo, they're still highly effective against soft targets. I'd like to see a Klingon do anything with his Bat'leth after his chest has been perforated by a dozen .223 rounds. In SW I can understand it, because they have the materials for police and soldiers to be equipped with body armor that renders slug-throwers useless.

But an M16 would be incredibly useful against rampaging Klingons or Centauri or what-have-you.

There are a number of reasons why I think that most Sci-fi races use energy weapons. You mentioned size and weight (in SW, you can fit hundreds of rounds into something the size of a couple decks of cards), but also ricochets. Perhaps energy weapons offer better firepower against hardened targets or just run of the mill enemy troops. In most sci-fis, there is some kind of stun setting on energy weapons, or at least a variable yield. Armor in SW and probably others has been developed to be highly effective against physical objects, but it still has problems against energy weapons. Perhaps it is also some kind of reliability issue, or it might be easier to train soldiers in the use of energy weapons rather than projectile weapons. Clearly a sniper rifle firing energy would have significant advantages over one using projectiles due to the ballistic characteristics of bullets that require a soldier to accurately range a target. The range window would be much greater for a weapon whose projectile travelled straight and at near c, even if it did give away one's position. The other thing might be cost. It costs money every time you have to buy more ammunition or re-rifle barrels or service rifles. In an energy weapon, the cost for ammunition might be significantly reduced, and there MIGHT be less maintenance required (though I imagine that this differs in each universe). In SW, weapons that have been around for decades, centuries, and even millenia are still useful with little or no maintenance required. It might be that any one of these, or a combination of several of them, are responsible for the removal of most projectile weapons.