Biology teacher dissects live dog in front of science class

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-13 06:23pm

Durandal wrote:
Andrew J. wrote:
Durandal wrote:So what happens when it comes out from the anaesthesia? Was the teacher going to sew it up or let the dog awake with its gullet cut open? Or was he going to smash the dog's head in with a hammer right after he was done?
Probably, the latter, or at least sending him to the vet right away. Trust me, that dog was never coming out of anesthesia.
Honestly, how do you know? Was the biology teacher a trained veterinary anesthesiologist?

Why would the biology teacher be the one to anesthetize it. It'd be the veterinarians who would later perform the euthanization who would do this, obviously. There doesn't seem to be a logical moral objection to this, unless you count the traumatization for possible pet owners in the class room. Especially when you could've done the same with a set of pre-removed organs from an already dead dog.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-13 06:44pm

This seems like a fucking retarded thing to do... seeing a living creature's insides isn't going to be good for ANYBODY. I really would believe that this guy did it just to piss some folks off, and then justify it. The animal may not have felt pain, but I'm quite sure that the students did... that's fucked up...

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-13 06:47pm

Well, it had the minor positive effect of showing students what REAL mammalian insides look like...but yeah, what a retard.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » 2005-05-13 07:13pm

My school used baby pigs, frogs, worms. And that grossed me out enough that I never learned anything that stuck with me either. What would possess someone to use a dog! OMG That's just wrong.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-05-14 12:20am

This guy is either an idiot or somebody who gets jollies from cutting live flesh.

Good god, that would've been a catastrophe at my school. We had a half-dozen idiot students screaming 'animal cruelty' when we had to chop up stillborn baby pigs during my junior year.

General Brock · Post by **General Brock** » 2005-05-14 01:33am

Vivisecting an animal might be good practice for a practicing surgeon and med students, but high school biology? There are cable channels that specialize in showing live surgeries. Surely, there are vivisection videos of good quality that can be shown to the class, instead of prolonging the death of a doomed dog. It is tragic enough so many have to be disposed of each year.

The only 'good' that came out of this is that a few grossed-out nurse or doctor wannabes may have discovered a major impediment to their planned careers, and will save on wasted tuition.

Even students who have had the pleasure of dressing game and slaughtering domestic livestock for food will find something wrong with gratuitous vivisection.

BringerOfLight · Post by **BringerOfLight** » 2005-05-14 05:47pm

This guy was pretty damn stupid for doing this in a high-school biology class. Even stray dogs tend to receive some form of empathy from the general public. Just look at this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7791682/#050513c

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-15 10:36am

Wow...

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2005-05-15 02:13pm

We already have videos of endoscopys at various points through the human digestive tract that are quite detailed. Was it really so necessary to bring the sensationalism of vivisection into the classroom, instead of simply popping a video in?

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2005-05-15 06:11pm

--That bastard is just plain sick! There is no value to a highschool students in disecting a live dog. The only effect it will have is 1. Convince them scientists are a bunch of deranged maniacs just like Hollywood says. and/or 2. Desensitise them to disecting live animals just to see what a living animal looks like while being disected.
-Just what I would expect out of place like Utah; that and kneejerk reaction to blame it on "liberals" and scientists in general.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2005-05-15 06:44pm

I think it would have been interesting to watch, but I sincerely doubt almost anyone else would have enjoyed it at all. It's definitely not high-school classroom material, since most high-schoolers aren't even mature enough to hadle the word "poop" appropriately.

Max · Post by **Max** » 2005-05-16 04:03pm

All I'm hearing from everyone are emotional appeals. I think if the teacher had an "opt-out" plan for the students that didn't want to or couldn't handle the lesson, then there shouldn't be a big issue about it. I would have loved for there to be a vivisection performed in my highschools advanced biology (or even regular bio) class.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-05-16 05:26pm

mplsjocc wrote:All I'm hearing from everyone are emotional appeals. I think if the teacher had an "opt-out" plan for the students that didn't want to or couldn't handle the lesson, then there shouldn't be a big issue about it. I would have loved for there to be a vivisection performed in my highschools advanced biology (or even regular bio) class.

No, it has been stated that the educational benefit was not there. Blood, guts and gore don't bother me, but if there's no good reason to wallow in them it casts this act in a very questionable light.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2005-05-16 05:58pm

... good thing this fuckwit's email isn't included in the article. Fucking... sick. I don't give a flying rat's ass if the poor thing was sedated. MY left freaking Testicle. I wouldn't have let this happen. As soon as homeboy said ANYTHING about dissecting a live dog, I would have been in the pricipal's office before he applied the punctuation on his announcement.

Max · Post by **Max** » 2005-05-16 06:05pm

Why would the educational benefit not be there? I think it would be more beneficial to the students that are interested in the subject to study a subject that wasn't stored in a freezer for days or weeks on end beforehand. Was the entire class forced to sit through this, or did they not have enough time to opt out? I would agree that this isn't suitable for junior high/middle schoolers... but if this is a highschool biology class (did they say what grade level?), I know plenty of my peers (me included being a science geek) in my senior biology class would have stayed to watch and learn.

If there are students that are serious about this, I don't see the harm. The dog was going to be put down anyway. It seems to me that there may be some info that wasn't reported that might or might not shed a little light (I sort of breezed through the article) on it for me. Who did the sedation? What grade were these kids in? Were they forced to watch?

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-05-16 06:11pm

mplsjocc wrote:Why would the educational benefit not be there? I think it would be more beneficial to the students that are interested in the subject to study a subject that wasn't stored in a freezer for days or weeks on end beforehand. Was the entire class forced to sit through this, or did they not have enough time to opt out? I would agree that this isn't suitable for junior high/middle schoolers... but if this is a highschool biology class (did they say what grade level?), I know plenty of my peers (me included being a science geek) in my senior biology class would have stayed to watch and learn.

If there are students that are serious about this, I don't see the harm. The dog was going to be put down anyway. It seems to me that there may be some info that wasn't reported that might or might not shed a little light (I sort of breezed through the article) on it for me. Who did the sedation? What grade were these kids in? Were they forced to watch?

If he did a dissection on a fresh kill (which shouldn't be hard to come by from the local animal shelter) the results would've been about the same, according to Valdemar. Hence, no benefit to vivisection.

If there was an objective benefit to the procedure, I wouldn't have any objection at all.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2005-05-16 06:45pm

mplsjocc wrote:Why would the educational benefit not be there? I think it would be more beneficial to the students that are interested in the subject to study a subject that wasn't stored in a freezer for days or weeks on end beforehand.

How about you show that shit stored in a freezer is any more or less valuable for study in a fucking HIGH SCHOOL BIOLOGY CLASS. this would be like requiring kindergrteners to describe the molecular structure of their red crayolas.

Was the entire class forced to sit through this, or did they not have enough time to opt out? I would agree that this isn't suitable for junior high/middle schoolers... but if this is a highschool biology class (did they say what grade level?), I know plenty of my peers (me included being a science geek) in my senior biology class would have stayed to watch and learn.

You still have not provided one iota of evidence that dissecting a living animal is any more or less educational than one that was killed days earlier. Sorry, but observing peristalsis in a sedated dog doesn't seem like it would be of much benefit to HIGH SCHOOLERS. I point you to the endoscopy comment. in HUMANS. That's right. living human endoscopy videos. I daresay much more useful to would-be doctors and nurses than this tripe.

If there are students that are serious about this, I don't see the harm.

Sick fuck much?

The dog was going to be put down anyway.

you're going to die one day, too. Would it be ethical for me to plug you one in your sleep? You didn't feel a thing, after all.

It seems to me that there may be some info that wasn't reported that might or might not shed a little light (I sort of breezed through the article) on it for me. Who did the sedation? What grade were these kids in? Were they forced to watch?

It seems to me you are not seeing the ethical implications here. Who gives a fuck what grade they were in or whether they were forced to watch?

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2005-05-16 07:15pm

I think that the situation for the dog was not ideal but I, personally, do not see the degree of ethical concern here. Sedation of this sort would apparently mean no pain. It's like when they operate on human brains, but the subject is still concious, because there's no pain (and it's useful.) The only difference is the brain operate-ee is intended to live, and the dog is not. Of course, the dog wasn't going to anyway.

Sure, no one wants their dog to be used for something other than a huggable, loveable pet, but that's not really the fate of many of these animals. If there is benefit --and this is what I see as the actual concern-- then I do not have a problem with it being preformed. My biggest issue with him using the dog was that it seems like a waste of resources and the kids didn't really want to see it anyway and weren't going to learn much for the endeavor.

Max · Post by **Max** » 2005-05-16 08:33pm

I give the thumbs up to the teacher. The dog was going to be put down anyway.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-05-16 08:36pm

mplsjocc wrote:I give the thumbs up to the teacher. The dog was going to be put down anyway.

And how is this is a response to the points that Chardok and I have made?

Max · Post by **Max** » 2005-05-16 09:22pm

Petrosjko wrote:
mplsjocc wrote:I give the thumbs up to the teacher. The dog was going to be put down anyway.
And how is this is a response to the points that Chardok and I have made?

I'm sorry.. I forgot to add this to my previous post.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3180218

My apologies for being a bad multitasker.

Dog's vivisection a hard lesson for schoolgirls
Reuters News Service

SALT LAKE CITY - A Utah high school expressed regret Thursday for the vivisection of a stray dog as part of a biology lesson.

ADVERTISEMENT

Some parents and students complained after a substitute biology teacher at Gunnison Valley High School took eight girls, ages 16 and 17, to a local veterinary clinic Tuesday to watch abdominal dissection on a dog under general anesthetic. The lesson was aimed at teaching about the digestive system.

"It just makes me sick and I don't think this should go on anywhere and nobody is learning from it," student Sierra Sears told a TV station.

"This shouldn't happen again. Our schools will not participate in this again," said Donald Hill, assistant superintendent of the South Sanpete School District. "We don't condone this."

However, veterinarian Tom Anderson said the incident, reported in local television and newspapers, had been blown out of proportion.

"It was about a three-minute procedure involving abdominal surgery. It was done under general anesthetic. It was an aggressive and abandoned dog. It was not fit to be adopted," Anderson said. The dog was put to sleep after the procedure.

The school said permission had been obtained from parents and that two students had opted out of the visit.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2005-05-16 09:26pm

Very nice.

*clap*

Now, I ask you again, how is dissecting a living animal any more or less valuable than dissecting a dead one? and you still haven't addressed the ethical dilemma, either. Way to deflect, though.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2005-05-16 09:27pm

Even if there are slight benefits to vivisection vs dissecting a dead dog, the psychological consequences would far outweigh it. People (well, normal people) feel as much compassion toward dogs and other pets as they do towards their fellow human beings. This will fuck them up emotionally for practically no gain whatsoever. How will knowing that Fido was still alive when he was cut open contribute to the learning environment?

For those who don't care, well, I hate to think about giving sick fuck highschool students the idea that it's morally permissable to cut open a living animal. I knew enough kids in HS who tied firecrackers to rats or set cats on fire to know that there's at least one in every class, and this class's sicko just got a big helping of validation.

Max · Post by **Max** » 2005-05-16 09:52pm

Chardok wrote:Very nice.

*clap*

Now, I ask you again, how is dissecting a living animal any more or less valuable than dissecting a dead one? and you still haven't addressed the ethical dilemma, either. Way to deflect, though.

I don't see it as an ethical dilemma as it sounds as though the vet was going to do this operation anyway.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-05-16 11:30pm

mplsjocc wrote:I don't see it as an ethical dilemma as it sounds as though the vet was going to do this operation anyway.

No, they were going to euthanize the dog.

Again, there is little demonstrable benefit here.

I'm not overly concerned with the heartache and trauma factor here, to be honest. I feel that by that age, young adults should have something of an understanding of the processes of life and death. But there was not an adequate justification for vivisection in this case. Throwing something at a body of students that will at best result in something of a 'hunh, that's kind of gross' doesn't serve the purpose of educating them.