Question about the Emperor...

[ShinjiGohan]

I recently heard a rumor that Palpatine had created several clones of himself. So at the end of RotJ, using the dark side of the force, he transfered himself to the clone prior to dieing. So in actuality he isn't dead, and so long as he has a host, he'll continue to live pretty much forever.

I was wondering if this is true? If it is, then I feel like its a cheap cop out. Sort of like everytime Darkseid loses, it ends up being a clone or someone posing as Darkseid.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah Palpatine had series of clones but A) most those clone were destroyed or sabotased B) it seem he could maintain the Sith ghost form for only a limited time and when he was killed by Han Solo he died for good.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I recently heard a rumor that Palpatine had created several clones of himself. So at the end of RotJ, using the dark side of the force, he transfered himself to the clone prior to dieing. So in actuality he isn't dead, and so long as he has a host, he'll continue to live pretty much forever.

I was wondering if this is true? If it is, then I feel like its a cheap cop out. Sort of like everytime Darkseid loses, it ends up being a clone or someone posing as Darkseid.

Yes, it is true, and it is canon. Non gustibus disputandum est.

I think it would be ultimately equally as pointless if Palpatine really was so old and decrepit and is not far off from dying anyway.

Anyhow, combining knowledge he has due to the legacy of the Sith Lords before him, and knowledge of a Jedi Master named Ashka Boda, he figured out how to transfer his conscious life-essence into a prepared clone body of himself when his original died. He began assuming clones before A New Hope. After ROTJ, he survived by transfering his mind across space and time to his Hand, Jeng Droga, on the Rim. Palpatine's spiritual forced-possession of his body drove Droga mad. It was a year before Grand Vizier Sate Pestage recovered Droga, brought him to Palpatine's retreat world of Byss, and tore his mind free of Droga, allowing him to inhabit another fresh clone.

[Imperator Galacticus]

In addition to what Illuminatus Primus said, the Emperor at the end of Empire's End could also transfer his spirit into the bodies of unborn Force sensitives, or as Dark Empire I has it, transfer his soul into adult human Force sensitives.

The process however takes some time. It was a while until Sidious could project his Force spirit onto Byss's cloning chambers, but nevertheless his labors paid off, and his powers expanded enough to the point where he could drain the life essences of billions of sentients around Byss territory. (This according to Dark Empire as his first step in initiating the effect trans Galaxiam suum)

Still, it should be noted the over-indulgence of the writers had to put this level of immense Force power on part of the His Imperial Majesty at an end somehow, and this they went about by having a Jedi Master block the Galactic Emperor's spirit from entering the unborn body of Anakin Solo--permantly.

[CaptainChewbacca]

And then a force storm tore the Emperor apart.

[Techno_Union]

Anyhow, combining knowledge he has due to the legacy of the Sith Lords before him, and knowledge of a Jedi Master named Ashka Boda, he figured out how to transfer his conscious life-essence into a prepared clone body of himself when his original died. He began assuming clones before A New Hope. After ROTJ, he survived by transfering his mind across space and time to his Hand, Jeng Droga, on the Rim. Palpatine's spiritual forced-possession of his body drove Droga mad. It was a year before Grand Vizier Sate Pestage recovered Droga, brought him to Palpatine's retreat world of Byss, and tore his mind free of Droga, allowing him to inhabit another fresh clone.

Curious, where did this info come from?

[Darksider]

Ah Dark Empire.

I remember the sense of rage I was filled with when some dumbass comic writer decided to whip it out and piss all over ROTJ.

Weren't the clone bodies defective because a renegade Crimson Guard wanted to assasinate the Emperor?

[Coriolis]

Yeah, they tampered with the cloning material or something...

[Publius]

Ah Dark Empire.

I remember the sense of rage I was filled with when some dumbass comic writer decided to whip it out and piss all over ROTJ.

Weren't the clone bodies defective because a renegade Crimson Guard wanted to assasinate the Emperor?

Just a note for future reference: The Crimson Guard is a feature of the G.I. Joe series, a group of élite Cobra soldiers who serve as doctors, lawyers, and other established members of society, providing intelligence and support for Cobra's more overt operations. The Red Guard is the name of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine's personal bodyguards, who were subsequently reorganized into the Imperial Royal Guard. You mean to refer to the Royal Guard, and yes, a rogue member of the Guard (specifically, a Sovereign Protector named Carnor Jax) did lead a conspiracy which led to the destruction of the Galactic Emperor's clones and his ultimate death.

[Admiral Drason]

Will ROTS change any of the lore of His Imperial Majesty?

We are probably going to learn a great deal about him and his true powers could this change the stuff about the clones?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Will ROTS change any of the lore of His Imperial Majesty?

We are probably going to learn a great deal about him and his true powers could this change the stuff about the clones?

Not really. It takes thirty years earlier and Palpatine was not even supposed to know about the ability yet.

[NecronLord]

Will ROTS change any of the lore of His Imperial Majesty?

It establishes that all the acid-trip abilities of Wankatine were not held by the Original Palpatine, and that the force vampire thing wasn't his original reason for founding the Galactic Empire, but it doesn't do more than that. Alas. I personally feel that Dark Empire is a greater embarassment to the Star Wars franchise than the Holiday Special.

[FTeik]

As already pointed out more than 20 years are between ROTS and ROTJ or DE, so it is possible that Palpatine had to change his plans after his supposed Super-Sith took a bath in the lava and decided to do the job himself.

Aside from that i have the feeling, that the lunatic DE-Palpatine will become more credible because of a lunatic Palpatine in ROST.

[Vympel]

Just a note for future reference: The Crimson Guard is a feature of the G.I. Joe series, a group of élite Cobra soldiers who serve as doctors, lawyers, and other established members of society, providing intelligence and support for Cobra's more overt operations.

I thought the Crimson Guard were clones of some kind? Weren't they all called Fred [insert Roman numeral here]?

It establishes that all the acid-trip abilities of Wankatine were not held by the Original Palpatine, and that the force vampire thing wasn't his original reason for founding the Galactic Empire, but it doesn't do more than that. Alas. I personally feel that Dark Empire is a greater embarassment to the Star Wars franchise than the Holiday Special.

I agree. It's a pity that IMO inspired artwork [note little details like a blaster pistol Han Solo is using during the fighting on Coruscant- it's a P-38 modified Star Wars style- just brilliant) and sense of scale should have appeared in one of the worst stories ever.

[Ghost Rider]

Just a note for future reference: The Crimson Guard is a feature of the G.I. Joe series, a group of élite Cobra soldiers who serve as doctors, lawyers, and other established members of society, providing intelligence and support for Cobra's more overt operations.

I thought the Crimson Guard were clones of some kind? Weren't they all called Fred [insert Roman numeral here]?

No, that was just to protect their identies. They also underwent reconstructive surgery to look facial the same. Personally thought that part was just dumb, but the name was basically code amongst themselves.

[ImperialBishop]

It establishes that all the acid-trip abilities of Wankatine were not held by the Original Palpatine, and that the force vampire thing wasn't his original reason for founding the Galactic Empire, but it doesn't do more than that. Alas. I personally feel that Dark Empire is a greater embarassment to the Star Wars franchise than the Holiday Special.

The whole idea seems to overthrow the whole theme of evil being destroyed and Vader's redemption. If you're evil, and all you have to do is just inhabit a clone, then it makes Vader's action seem... I dunno. Pointless.

I mean, something can't really be canon if it clashes with the movies on a basic thematic level, can it?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The whole idea seems to overthrow the whole theme of evil being destroyed and Vader's redemption. If you're evil, and all you have to do is just inhabit a clone, then it makes Vader's action seem... I dunno. Pointless.

I mean, something can't really be canon if it clashes with the movies on a basic thematic level, can it?

Actually, it survives unless it clashes with the movies on a very direct level. Appealing to things like "theme" or "author's intent" doesn't get you very far, especially on SDN.

Vader's sacrifice was still great. For one thing, it is not clear he knows about those clones. For another thing, he suspended the evil of the Emperor and saved Luke. Those are the main points of a Light Side person - stopping evil and saving lives. The main point of a Light Side person is not about killing, let alone "ruining" a soul, even of an evil man.

As it is, the Emperor paid for his miscalculation dearly. He did come close to being totally ruined.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I agree. It's a pity that IMO inspired artwork [note little details like a blaster pistol Han Solo is using during the fighting on Coruscant- it's a P-38 modified Star Wars style- just brilliant) and sense of scale should have appeared in one of the worst stories ever.

I guess I've been spoiled by near photorealistic portrayals of warships (so good you can easily match them up to Jane's), but honestly I think the DE art was at best average.

Anyway, why does everyone hate DE so much? Sure, it raised the bar of the Jedi Powers, but then, so does BFC (alchemy of a castle by Luke), KJA (especially how they repulsed the destroyers) and of course those Sith stories where they blew up the suns (even counting the Sith Boosters, it is still pretty wank). What else is annoying about it?

[Crown]

I agree. It's a pity that IMO inspired artwork [note little details like a blaster pistol Han Solo is using during the fighting on Coruscant- it's a P-38 modified Star Wars style- just brilliant) and sense of scale should have appeared in one of the worst stories ever.

I guess I've been spoiled by near photorealistic portrayals of warships (so good you can easily match them up to Jane's), but honestly I think the DE art was at best average.

Anyway, why does everyone hate DE so much? Sure, it raised the bar of the Jedi Powers, but then, so does BFC (alchemy of a castle by Luke), KJA (especially how they repulsed the destroyers) and of course those Sith stories where they blew up the suns (even counting the Sith Boosters, it is still pretty wank). What else is annoying about it?

The Emperor died at Endor. By Anakin. End. Of. Fucking. Story.

Wankantine I can deal with, stupidity and vampire villans straight out of a B-movie (that would even make other B-movies seem good) is just horrid. Clear enough?

Oh, and for ImperialBishop, unless DE gets the Infinities label slapped on it, then no you can't discount it for those reasons. Which frankly I'm happy about. I may hate the piece of shit for the festering turd that it is, but I don't agree on dis-qualifying something based on thematic levels - no matter how much I wish it were so.

[Vympel]

I guess I've been spoiled by near photorealistic portrayals of warships (so good you can easily match them up to Jane's), but honestly I think the DE art was at best average.

The ships themselves needed work, but all the other stuff I enjoyed a lot.

Anyway, why does everyone hate DE so much? Sure, it raised the bar of the Jedi Powers, but then, so does BFC (alchemy of a castle by Luke), KJA (especially how they repulsed the destroyers) and of course those Sith stories where they blew up the suns (even counting the Sith Boosters, it is still pretty wank). What else is annoying about it?

1. It cheapens RotJ- Vader's (spiritual) redemption is rendered pointless because Palpatine just got to one of his (:roll:) many clone bodies.

2. Luke Skywalker turns to the dark side. I mean, what the fuck? This was a danger he overcame in Episode VI, and now he gets it put in front of him again, and this time he falls for it? And in much less dire circumstances, no less. Cheapening RotJ, strike 2.

3. The World Devastators. Oh come on ... the never-ending list of disposable superweapons is one of the worst features of the EU in general, and DE didn't need them.

4. Palpatine as a clone. Oh come off it. Really, its just so stupid its beyond words.

5. The Wankatine already mentioned.

[FTeik]

Lots of good ideas, lots of potential, but poorly executed.

That and the fact, that you needed a WEG-Sourcebook to understand half of what was going on.

And the more i think about it, the worst is the transformation of Palpatine from a brillant demagoge, political genius and master-manipulator with (compared to other universes) modest magical powers into this super-demon relying on brute force to achive his goals.

Another thing, that annoys me, but isn't the fault of DarkEmpire is that the more mundane equipment of the empire isn't seen again. Things like tank-droids, TIE-droids, TIE-crawlers, SD9- and SD10-battledroids or ships like the Allegiance.

[Crown]

3. The World Devastators. Oh come on ... the never-ending list of disposable superweapons is one of the worst features of the EU in general, and DE didn't need them.

With this point, I'll have to disagree with you. Yes, okay, the first time I read it, I will admit that I too hated the fact that; oh yes, here we go. Yet another superweapon. But as superweapons go, these were pretty cool.

If only we could find a way to keep the WD, and the other ships, and then flush the rest, I'd be in seventh heaven.

100% agree with points 1, 2 & 4. Point 5 doesn't bother me all that much, but yeah I agree with that too.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The ships themselves needed work, but all the other stuff I enjoyed a lot.

If the DESB's colorations of the characters are accurate to the comic, it needs work too. I mean, Palpy being all kinda green?

1. It cheapens RotJ- Vader's (spiritual) redemption is rendered pointless because Palpatine just got to one of his (:roll:) many clone bodies.

I disagree. Redemption is in the effort, not the success. In deciding to fight the Emperor at all at risk of almost certain (or even flat out certain) death in order to stop him from his sadistic torture and to save his son (which means he recognized him, the Son of Anakin Skywalker, and in doing so recognized himself as Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader), he renounced his Dark Side. That was the Redemption.

Killing the Emperor is secondary. In fact, if his emphasis was on killing the Emperor rather than saving Luke, it might cheapen his Redemption, since killing is actually against the Light Side. If his emphasis was on stopping the Emperor and saving Luke, he did that. He succeeded. So what part of the Redemption was ruined?

Even if the Emperor used Force Levitation to fly himself out of his fall (I never quite understood why Jedi seem unable to fly themselves out of such situations despite being able of great telekinetic feats), his effort is still most noteworthy. Even if he didn't die in the effort ... You see?

2. Luke Skywalker turns to the dark side. I mean, what the fuck? This was a danger he overcame in Episode VI, and now he gets it put in front of him again, and this time he falls for it? And in much less dire circumstances, no less. Cheapening RotJ, strike 2.

The point is that the Dark Side's lure is strong, and never ending with multiple vectors. The fact the situation is less dire is half the point. He is not being "pushed" into it by desperation this time. He's being "pulled" by the lure. By the prospect of understanding his father.

3. The World Devastators. Oh come on ... the never-ending list of disposable superweapons is one of the worst features of the EU in general, and DE didn't need them.

Actually, the World Devastators was a most creative thing. I personally hated their MCP end, but then I hated the end of vritually every superweapon ever created in SW. Give them some respect, man! Show them killing things, blowing up helpless Rebels. Show sacrifice in proportion with their threat killing them (at least in ANH most of the strike force was killed in the effort), not some cheap ending.

4. Palpatine as a clone. Oh come off it. Really, its just so stupid its beyond words.

Actually, it makes Palpy even more the schemer he is. It actually meets with Obi-Wan's and Yoda's stuff about all of us being "luminous being" and bodies being mere "crude matter". If all that is true, for Palpy the great master to be necessarily confined to one set of crude matter is rather limiting.

[Vympel]

If the DESB's colorations of the characters are accurate to the comic, it needs work too. I mean, Palpy being all kinda green?

The comic does have some very wierd color.

I disagree. Redemption is in the effort, not the success. In deciding to fight the Emperor at all at risk of almost certain (or even flat out certain) death in order to stop him from his sadistic torture and to save his son (which means he recognized him, the Son of Anakin Skywalker, and in doing so recognized himself as Anakin Skywalker, not Darth Vader), he renounced his Dark Side. That was the Redemption.

Killing the Emperor is secondary. In fact, if his emphasis was on killing the Emperor rather than saving Luke, it might cheapen his Redemption, since killing is actually against the Light Side. If his emphasis was on stopping the Emperor and saving Luke, he did that. He succeeded. So what part of the Redemption was ruined?

Even if the Emperor used Force Levitation to fly himself out of his fall (I never quite understood why Jedi seem unable to fly themselves out of such situations despite being able of great telekinetic feats), his effort is still most noteworthy. Even if he didn't die in the effort ... You see?

I see where you're coming from. But it still cheapened RotJ in total, even if it didn't have as big an effect as Vader's redemption.

The point is that the Dark Side's lure is strong, and never ending with multiple vectors. The fact the situation is less dire is half the point. He is not being "pushed" into it by desperation this time. He's being "pulled" by the lure. By the prospect of understanding his father.

Yes, but the lure of the dark side is something he overcame at the height of a dark side rage brought on by the very same kind of feeling that prompted Anakin to make his choice. They even said the same thing. NOOOOOOOOOOOO!".

EDIT: Crown put it better than I did.

Actually, the World Devastators was a most creative thing. I personally hated their MCP end, but then I hated the end of vritually every superweapon ever created in SW. Give them some respect, man! Show them killing things, blowing up helpless Rebels. Show sacrifice in proportion with their threat killing them (at least in ANH most of the strike force was killed in the effort), not some cheap ending.

MCP?

Actually, it makes Palpy even more the schemer he is. It actually meets with Obi-Wan's and Yoda's stuff about all of us being "luminous being" and bodies being mere "crude matter". If all that is true, for Palpy the great master to be necessarily confined to one set of crude matter is rather limiting.

The great Sith master. Qui-Gon tells Yoda flat out that the Sith could never achieve what he had done. While it's true that Palpatine would've been subsumed into nothing had he gone on, while Qui-Gon subsisted for over 15 years at least, it still pisses me off.

However, that's not the fairest criticism since RotS wasn't written at the time DE was. Still, Palpatine as the wizened, ancient Sith Lord is far more effective to me than Palpatine the umpteenth clone.

[Crown]

I disagree. Redemption is in the effort, not the success. <snip> ... You see?

Yes, I do. And I agree, the effort is greater than the success. But either way bringing the Emperor back cheapened it. Nothing you'll say is gonna change this. It cheapened the fucking ending of RotJ, period. They should have come up with a different villian, rather than recycling one again, and again, and again, and oh look again.

The point is that the Dark Side's lure is strong, and never ending with multiple vectors. The fact the situation is less dire is half the point. He is not being "pushed" into it by desperation this time. He's being "pulled" by the lure. By the prospect of understanding his father.

Yaha. Look, Luke's right of passage was completed in RotJ. Not only did he not fall to the Dark Side, but he surrendered his weapon. He surrended himself. After an act such as this, it is just not fucking believable that he turned out of curiousity five years later. Luke's right of passage was that he saw what his father turned into, he decided right there and then that he would have no bar of it, and he surrendered. For him to turn later is idiocy.

Actually, it makes Palpy even more the schemer he is. It actually meets with Obi-Wan's and Yoda's stuff about all of us being "luminous being" and bodies being mere "crude matter". If all that is true, for Palpy the great master to be necessarily confined to one set of crude matter is rather limiting.

Yaha. You know what would impress me? If he didn't need that 'crude matter' at all ... oh look Obi-Wan beat him to it.

EDIT :: Sorry, waaaaay wrong smiley at the end of the post.