Question about the Emperor...

[Vympel]

Yaha. You know what would impress me? If he didn't need that 'crude matter' at all ... oh look Obi-Wan beat him to it.

RotS spoiler:

Actually Qui-Gon did it first.

[Crown]

Yaha. You know what would impress me? If he didn't need that 'crude matter' at all ... oh look Obi-Wan beat him to it.

RotS spoiler:

Actually Qui-Gon did it first.

I know, I generally try to avoid posting RotS spoilers when I can, it irks people, and all the small font pisses me off.

Also why would you say that it is an unfair critisism when you brought it up? Even ignoring RotS we have, ANH, TESB and RotJ.

Even if you include RotS, all it does is point to the obvious that was already there in the OT anyway. Just seemed strange that you would say that.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The great Sith master. Qui-Gon tells Yoda flat out that the Sith could never achieve what he had done. While it's true that Palpatine would've been subsumed into nothing had he gone on, while Qui-Gon subsisted for over 15 years at least, it still pisses me off.

And why not?

However, that's not the fairest criticism since RotS wasn't written at the time DE was. Still, Palpatine as the wizened, ancient Sith Lord is far more effective to me than Palpatine the umpteenth clone.

His spirit is the Great Sith Lord. Who cares about what set of matter he happens to be using as his link to the physical world?

I don't see the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon Process as any kind of great win. All they did was turn themselves into ghosts. What fun is that? They basically can't even influence the physical plane after that. They can only touch even the astral plane of a very important person very occasionally. And like it or not, the physical plane is where all the real action seems to be.

And what kind of immortality is it? Obi-Wan died in ANH, and used his body in Force Alchemy (based on the fact his body disappeared). Even then, he could only maintain astral cohesion for about 10 years (until HTTE). A ten year extension of life (during which you can't influence the physical plane) ain't much of a immortality to me.

[Vympel]

And why not?

It's in the novel- can't quote it now- soon though.

His spirit is the Great Sith Lord. Who cares about what set of matter he happens to be using as his link to the physical world?

See Empire's End. You know- the possess baby Anakin thing. Don't tell me you didn't cringe.

I don't see the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon Process as any kind of great win. All they did was turn themselves into ghosts. What fun is that? They basically can't even influence the physical plane after that. They can only touch even the astral plane of a very important person very occasionally. And like it or not, the physical plane is where all the real action seems to be.

And what kind of immortality is it? Obi-Wan died in ANH, and used his body in Force Alchemy (based on the fact his body disappeared). Even then, he could only maintain astral cohesion for about 10 years (until HTTE). A ten year extension of life (during which you can't influence the physical plane) ain't much of a immortality to me.

He didn't "die" in HTTE. He just left. That's different. Like he said- they'll meet again.

[Crown]

His spirit is the Great Sith Lord. Who cares about what set of matter he happens to be using as his link to the physical world?

I don't see the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon Process as any kind of great win. All they did was turn themselves into ghosts. What fun is that? They basically can't even influence the physical plane after that. They can only touch even the astral plane of a very important person very occasionally. And like it or not, the physical plane is where all the real action seems to be.

And what kind of immortality is it? Obi-Wan died in ANH, and used his body in Force Alchemy (based on the fact his body disappeared). Even then, he could only maintain astral cohesion for about 10 years (until HTTE). A ten year extension of life (during which you can't influence the physical plane) ain't much of a immortality to me.

You're missrepresenting what happened with Obi-Wan in HttE (or not recalling it correctly), or he could have been lying (and why not, he has been known to - errr - bend the truth before). RotS script says;

Qui-Gon:(V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

Yoda: Eternal consciousness.

Qui-Gon:(V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

Yoda: ...to become one with the Force, and influence still have ... A power greater than all, it is.

Qui-Gon:(V.O) You will learn to let go of everthying. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

Yoda: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

The above is not only a newer source, but it is also G-Level.

[Crown]

Actually, the World Devastators was a most creative thing. I personally hated their MCP end, but then I hated the end of vritually every superweapon ever created in SW. Give them some respect, man! Show them killing things, blowing up helpless Rebels. Show sacrifice in proportion with their threat killing them (at least in ANH most of the strike force was killed in the effort), not some cheap ending.

MCP?

I haven't seen Kaz answer this, but I'm pretty sure he meant Master Control Program.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

See Empire's End. You know- the possess baby Anakin thing. Don't tell me you didn't cringe.

Look. You are out of clone bodies. Becoming a ghost under the Process isn't an option whether you can do it or not, because you want to continue to directly influence the real plane (something Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon don't seem to care for). What else can you do but possess something with nary a will (a semi-sentient baby) with strong potential in the Force?

He didn't "die" in HTTE. He just left. That's different. Like he said- they'll meet again.

He just lost the last vestige of control over the real world. He's either going to the Force equivalent or Heaven or he's dissolving or at least weakening in some way. When are they meeting again. After Luke's death?

And yes of course I meant the Master Control Program, Vympel and Crown. Worst ending ever...

And while it wasn't for exactly the reason I predicted, we now know for sure that Obi-Wan had to stand still while Vader sliced him. He didn't have a choice.

[Crown]

He just lost the last vestige of control over the real world. He's either going to the Force equivalent or Heaven or he's dissolving or at least weakening in some way. When are they meeting again. After Luke's death?

That contradicts RotJ and RotS, so I don't know what to make of it. *shrug* Best rationalisation; he was lying, or not being completely honest with Luke.

And yes of course I meant the Master Control Program, Vympel and Crown. Worst ending ever...

Yeah, it was a let down. But it was a fault of poor writting if nothing else. I mean the WD were made so fucking uber (eating an entire MC cruiser) that it was basically the only way to go about it.*

And while it wasn't for exactly the reason I predicted, we now know for sure that Obi-Wan had to stand still while Vader sliced him. He didn't have a choice.

Huh


EDIT :: *Added more about the WD.

EDIT#2 :: Although, I think Obi-Wan and Yoda were influencing the Force in some way, I mean the Emperor's farsight seemed to be very fubared in RotJ if nothing else, and I don't think Luke's presence could explain it, the shroud should still have been there, but with Obi-Wan and Yoda (and Qui-Gon) having become one with the Force and retained their consciousness' it seems plausible they were playing with old Palpy in their own way. It was always interesting in TESB where Obi-Wan said that he couldn't interfere with Luke's show down with Vader.

Retrospectively I suspect that they could only do so much, or otherwise what would be the point of even having Jedi if the powerfull Jedi masters were eternal and could still influence the physical realm? We know from the novelisation of RotS; the Sith evolved in their 1000 years, while the Jedi didn't so the reasoning would be to do as little as possible, so as to allow future Jedi to continue to learn and evolve, even eclipsing their power and understanding.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Its clear something FUBARed Palpatine's precognizance and intuition at ROTJ, whether it was Yoda and Obi-Wan and other dead Jedi or the Will of the Force, we do not know.

Palpatine was clearly destined to be defeated at Endor though.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Will ROTS change any of the lore of His Imperial Majesty?

It establishes that all the acid-trip abilities of Wankatine were not held by the Original Palpatine,

No it doesn't. There is nothing in ROTS which explicitly contradicts Palpatine's canonical abilities in DE. (Granted he is not yet supposed to know how to create Force storms).

and that the force vampire thing wasn't his original reason for founding the Galactic Empire, but it doesn't do more than that.

Things change when you plan to be immortal.

Alas. I personally feel that Dark Empire is a greater embarassment to the Star Wars franchise than the Holiday Special.

Non gustibus disputandum est.

[NecronLord]

No it doesn't. There is nothing in ROTS which explicitly contradicts Palpatine's canonical abilities in DE. (Granted he is not yet supposed to know how to create Force storms).

It shows him fighting flat out, without releasing teratons of energy. Presumably if the original ever aquired this ability (unlikely) he never got the chance to use it. I suspect it is a peculiarity of the clones.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1. It cheapens RotJ- Vader's (spiritual) redemption is rendered pointless because Palpatine just got to one of his (:roll:) many clone bodies.

Like he said, I didn't realize the light side was about killing people. Vader's redemption is the small things - so he lost or destroyed everything he loves the ultimate expression of his goodness is to protect and preserve something he loved, even at the cost of his own life. ROTJ was about saving Luke. He destroyed his wife and friends and brought down the Jedi to fall, so saving his son and restoring the Jedi is his redemption.

Moreover, originally, there was an immediately following sequel trilogy. In Kurtz's original plans, Palpatine was to survive ROTJ, and Vader's redemption was saving Luke. Luke was to go on to become a Jedi Master and meet his sister (who wasn't Leia) and eventually confront and destroy the Emperor. Given that the current redemption was not sealed until George Lucas decided the sequel trilogy and deep or mixed endings were not for audiences - they just wanted flashy feel-good stuff he decided - and to crunch all the loose ends into ROTJ by having Vader kill Palpatine and have the sister end up being Leia, I hardly see some grand plan being squashed.

Additionally, it was always uncompelling for me that Palpatine was so old and decrepit and probably not too far off from dying. If Palpatine is going to die anytime soon, then what's the point of the entire ROTJ arc? He's going to die ANYWAY and the Empire will collapse. A bunch of people in another thread argued the other day that Palpatine probably wouldn't have escaped the Death Star even if Vader would've allowed him to fry Luke. So then what? Palpatine dies anyway. Some great victory for Vader. Vader's triumph is over his own darkness, and to save his son. Palpatine is just a foil for that, and that's why he appears mostly entirely for that in ROTJ in the OT.

2. Luke Skywalker turns to the dark side. I mean, what the fuck? This was a danger he overcame in Episode VI, and now he gets it put in front of him again, and this time he falls for it? And in much less dire circumstances, no less. Cheapening RotJ, strike 2.

Invariably stuff like this means people did not actually read the comic. Luke is brought to Byss. He is surrounded by the entire cadre of dark side adepts, Imperial inquisitors, a battalion of the Imperial Soveriegn Protectors, sentinels, divisions of stormtroopers, and tens of thousands of the greater warships of the Empire. And you expect Luke, knowing now Palpatine is back and putting Leia, the Republic, and the galaxy at stake to do what? If he fought Palpatine he would've been crushed. Even if he won, he would be crushed. Palpatine's plan for reconquering the galaxy was on autopilot. Underlings could oversee the destruction of the Republic.

Luke joins Palpatine after Palpatine himself suggests it as a venue to destroy him from within. Sure it is a long shot, but Luke really does have no choice. Furthermore, remember what Yoda said? "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Luke slipped into the dark side at Endor, then went back to the light. Well so did Anakin after slaughtering the Tuskens. And he was a hero, winning the war in the light side thereafter. Palpatine models his corruption after Ulic Qel-Droma, an ancient Jedi Knight who attempted to co-opt the Krath and destroy them from within, and like Jedi Master Quinlan Vos, who attempted to infiltrate Dooku's inner circle to defeat the Sith. Luke really has no other choice. Its that or let Palpatine run wild with his sister essentially defenseless. Remember at Endor, Luke could sense that the core was breached or the shield was down. He could be assured he was taking Palpatine with him. Luke does manage to persevere and destroy the Emperor thanks to Leia - which parallels the original plans that Kurtz had for the sequel trilogy.

3. The World Devastators. Oh come on ... the never-ending list of disposable superweapons is one of the worst features of the EU in general, and DE didn't need them.

I hardly see what is so bad about them; they're simply atmosphere-capable large starships with big tractor beams for tearing up buildings, vehicles, and rock. They could menace ONE planet (of one million) at a time and over an extended period. This doesn't even scratch the surface, and I think they are creative.

4. Palpatine as a clone. Oh come off it. Really, its just so stupid its beyond words.

Worse than the clear implication in ROTS of whole-body transmogrification in real fucking time? Worse than Palpatine near death regardless of victory?

5. The Wankatine already mentioned.

Because blinding and overpowering the entire Jedi Order at once across the entire galaxy in the PT is not wanking. At least the scope of the Force storms was vastly smaller. And only the last Force storm spawned from the Eclipse was really wanking.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No it doesn't. There is nothing in ROTS which explicitly contradicts Palpatine's canonical abilities in DE. (Granted he is not yet supposed to know how to create Force storms).

It shows him fighting flat out, without releasing teratons of energy. Presumably if the original ever aquired this ability (unlikely) he never got the chance to use it. I suspect it is a peculiarity of the clones.

Oh yes, because he would like to release teratons of energy in the same fucking room he is standing in. Force storms CANNOT be dialed down as a precision, surgical, or close-distance weapon, and other Force users can fuck with them because Palpatine just initiates and guides them, he does not generate them and does not control them. Did you even read the fucking comic? Palpatine fights Luke personally TWICE, once RIGHT BEFORE unleashing the wank storm against the Republic fleet.

And it is not a peculiarity of the clones. The clones are the same as Palpatine - why would his physical body determine the strengths he has? Perhaps he could've learned the talent in 30 years? Palpatine of ROTS is the same character as Palpatine of ROTJ which is the same as the character of Palpatine of DE, allowing for the concept of character evolution/maturation. Palpatine becomes more powerful and stronger with time. And Palpatine of the OT was already using clone bodies. Palpatine in ROTJ is already a clone body.

[NecronLord]

Possibly Palpatine's supposed immersion in the Dark Side after death made him more skilled and powerful when he returned, reflecting Obi-Wan's comment in ANH. You know, I actually find that explanation of Wankatine kinda cool.

[NecronLord]

And it is not a peculiarity of the clones. The clones are the same as Palpatine - why would his physical body determine the strengths he has?

Were I cloning myself in that manner, I'd sure as hell try something to boost my MC count. Not to mention, the previous body was decrepid

Perhaps he could've learned the talent in 30 years?

I'm open to that possibility, as said above. I don't like it, but I'm open to it. It kinda makes it difficult to believe that Luke could ever have defeated him though.

Palpatine of ROTS is the same character as Palpatine of ROTJ which is the same as the character of Palpatine of DE, allowing for the concept of character evolution/maturation. Palpatine becomes more powerful and stronger with time. And Palpatine of the OT was already using clone bodies. Palpatine in ROTJ is already a clone body.

What? So he lightninged himself in the face to make himself look like that? That sounds a little convoluted, not to mention masochistic. I would expect him to just say that he's had reconstructive surgery. Vader is the perfect symbol of what the jedi did in their trechery, one doesn't need to lightning one's own face to keep reminding the plebs.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Possibly Palpatine's supposed immersion in the Dark Side after death made him more skilled and powerful when he returned, reflecting Obi-Wan's comment in ANH. You know, I actually find that explanation of Wankatine kinda cool.

Actually, Palpatine was deeply weakened by his near-death. The reason he took six years to come back is because he was recovering.

Were I cloning myself in that manner, I'd sure as hell try something to boost my MC count. Not to mention, the previous body was decrepid

So what if it was decrepit? That determine's Force strength? ROTS and the PT in general implies everything but with Sidious and Yoda flying about and Yoda's "this crude matter" remark. Furthermore, as illustrated by Wong on the website, the Force is not a matter of simple physical biological inheritance, genetic, midichlorian, or otherwise.

Besides, the suggestion is that midichlorians do not create the Force, but rather are more prevelent around nexi of the Living Force. That is, one is Force sensitive, and it causes high midichlorian counts, not the other way around. SW.com implies that high midichlorian counts MAY suggest strength in the Force - the qualifier suggests quite clearly they are not the causal agent.

I'm open to that possibility, as said above. I don't like it, but I'm open to it. It kinda makes it difficult to believe that Luke could ever have defeated him though.

And from what you know about ROTS and AOTC you think it is any more reasonable anyway? Personally I don't know what Obi-Wan and Yoda were hoping for - maybe the Will of the Force to intervene? Maybe themselves? Maybe they were betting on Luke conquering Vader and the Rebellion knocking-off Palpatine. Films-only or EU-inclusive, on a strict analysis Palpatine should be WAY too powerful for Luke to best either way. That's the key of Vader's betrayal. Only knocking Palpatine back over half a decade gave Luke the chance. Luke confronts Palpatine again as a Jedi Master and was always more potentially powerful than Vader-in-the-suit as of SOTE. Not to mention Palpatine tutored him in his own arts before Luke tried to break free.

What? So he lightninged himself in the face to make himself look like that? That sounds a little convoluted, not to mention masochistic. I would expect him to just say that he's had reconstructive surgery. Vader is the perfect symbol of what the jedi did in their trechery, one doesn't need to lightning one's own face to keep reminding the plebs.

The novel description makes references to "the face of Palpatine, the face of Sidious", the VD to "Palpatine's mask in the dark side" or something, and the Clone Wars cartoon shows Sidious' hologram already with a decrepit and damaged face. I think its a ruse - the face-melting makes Anakin think Palpatine really is on the verge of defeat and makes the citizenry believe that the Jedi tried to kill him. Besides, face-melting in real-time is so fucking stupid I cannot begin to elaborate. Mystical Force or not, human flesh has certain immutable properties.

By the way:

How are all these DE-bashers all floundering and upset over stuff like life transfer and absorb life energy - they really are just ultimate realizations of known abilities - mind control and spiritual persistence in the former, and the opposite of Force healing in the latter, respectively. The "subsume into one's will" ability is just a direct extention of mind control and seduction by the dark side. Moreover, the first Force storm is hardly very incredible. The story does suggest that Palpatine does not generate Force storms - the last one continues even after he dies; he simply starts the fire so to speak, and it grows and consumes of its own volition. Personally, I think the PT wanks more than DE. Come on; clouding the perception of the entire fucking Jedi Order and suppressing their capabilities to a great degree - just how great is illuminated by Stover in the novelisation on how Obi-Wan is able to nab his saber after Palpatine creates locally lifts the shroud momentarily - is fucking wank. We're talking about one man without the aid of many partially subsumed underlings - remember Palpatine of the OT and DE is so powerful because he has so many dark side underlings and many of them are at least partially joined to his will directly - mind influencing each and every of over ten thousand Jedi Knights including Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi-Wank Kenobi everywhere in the entire galaxy for twenty-four hours a day, three-hundred and sixty-five days a year for fifteen years nonstop. THAT is unprecedented wank. I always could buy Palpatine hiding real well. I never could presume he was limiting and weakening all the Jedi in the entire galaxy for a decade and a half and STILL undetectable despite doing it all the time.

[Vympel]

Like he said, I didn't realize the light side was about killing people. Vader's redemption is the small things - so he lost or destroyed everything he loves the ultimate expression of his goodness is to protect and preserve something he loved, even at the cost of his own life. ROTJ was about saving Luke. He destroyed his wife and friends and brought down the Jedi to fall, so saving his son and restoring the Jedi is his redemption.

The light side isn't about killing people? Come off it. It's quite obvious that Jedi feel perfectly justified in killing evil or even simply threatening beings, and rightfully so. I don't know where this brainbug of Jedi pacificism came from, but its pure bullshit. RotJ was about the redemption of Vader, which he accomplished in two ways- saving Luke, and killing the Emperor. "But he's not really dead" is incredibly bad story telling.

Moreover, originally, there was an immediately following sequel trilogy. In Kurtz's original plans, Palpatine was to survive ROTJ, and Vader's redemption was saving Luke. Luke was to go on to become a Jedi Master and meet his sister (who wasn't Leia) and eventually confront and destroy the Emperor. Given that the current redemption was not sealed until George Lucas decided the sequel trilogy and deep or mixed endings were not for audiences - they just wanted flashy feel-good stuff he decided - and to crunch all the loose ends into ROTJ by having Vader kill Palpatine and have the sister end up being Leia, I hardly see some grand plan being squashed.

I never said a grand plan was squashed. Just from a story telling perspective, its complete crap.

Additionally, it was always uncompelling for me that Palpatine was so old and decrepit and probably not too far off from dying. If Palpatine is going to die anytime soon, then what's the point of the entire ROTJ arc? He's going to die ANYWAY and the Empire will collapse.

Who said he's going to die anytime soon? He's practically ancient already (RotJ description of him). Besides, he wants Luke as an apprentice, as Lucas said. Obviously, he figures he has enough time to train him and use him, just like he planned for Vader.

A bunch of people in another thread argued the other day that Palpatine probably wouldn't have escaped the Death Star even if Vader would've allowed him to fry Luke. So then what? Palpatine dies anyway.

Which is bullshit. Luke managed to drag the huge, immobile body of Vader to a hangar bay before the Death Star blew- you don't think the Emperor would've gotten away in those circumstances?

Some great victory for Vader. Vader's triumph is over his own darkness, and to save his son. Palpatine is just a foil for that, and that's why he appears mostly entirely for that in ROTJ in the OT.

Palpatine pretty much is Vader's darkness. However, bringing it back after Vader's already killed it is simply shit.

Invariably stuff like this means people did not actually read the comic. Luke is brought to Byss. He is surrounded by the entire cadre of dark side adepts, Imperial inquisitors, a battalion of the Imperial Soveriegn Protectors, sentinels, divisions of stormtroopers, and tens of thousands of the greater warships of the Empire. And you expect Luke, knowing now Palpatine is back and putting Leia, the Republic, and the galaxy at stake to do what? If he fought Palpatine he would've been crushed. Even if he won, he would be crushed. Palpatine's plan for reconquering the galaxy was on autopilot. Underlings could oversee the destruction of the Republic.

You're forgetting that Luke chose to go there. And besides, he's the Son of the Suns, stronger than his father could have been before his maiming, therefore stronger than Palpatine, and he had grown very strong in the Force since he had last seen him. I have no doubt whatsoever that Luke could've easily escaped if he wanted to. He could've effortlessly killed any number of those who tried to stop him.

Luke joins Palpatine after Palpatine himself suggests it as a venue to destroy him from within.

It's incredibly stupid. He should know damn well that it doesn't work that way, he's been told and he's avoided it once.

Sure it is a long shot, but Luke really does have no choice. Furthermore, remember what Yoda said? "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Luke slipped into the dark side at Endor, then went back to the light. Well so did Anakin after slaughtering the Tuskens. And he was a hero, winning the war in the light side thereafter.

A good point, but putting Luke in a situation where he "chose to be there" and being offered such a concept as joining the Dark Side to destroy Palpatine from within is just foolishness.

Palpatine models his corruption after Ulic Qel-Droma, an ancient Jedi Knight who attempted to co-opt the Krath and destroy them from within, and like Jedi Master Quinlan Vos, who attempted to infiltrate Dooku's inner circle to defeat the Sith. Luke really has no other choice. Its that or let Palpatine run wild with his sister essentially defenseless. Remember at Endor, Luke could sense that the core was breached or the shield was down. He could be assured he was taking Palpatine with him. Luke does manage to persevere and destroy the Emperor thanks to Leia - which parallels the original plans that Kurtz had for the sequel trilogy.

Luke could sense that?

I hardly see what is so bad about them; they're simply atmosphere-capable large starships with big tractor beams for tearing up buildings, vehicles, and rock. They could menace ONE planet (of one million) at a time and over an extended period. This doesn't even scratch the surface, and I think they are creative.

Matter of taste.

Worse than the clear implication in ROTS of whole-body transmogrification in real fucking time? Worse than Palpatine near death regardless of victory?

Who said Palpatine was near death? Also, the novelization makes it clear that his face after that scene is "the face of Sidious".. A much better explanation than any supposed clear implication (remember George Lucas has a line-edit of the novelization and reads the whole thing, if that wasn't his meaning he wouldn't have put it in there) is that his intensification of his powers meant he couldn't keep up the illusion any longer.

Because blinding and overpowering the entire Jedi Order at once across the entire galaxy in the PT is not wanking. At least the scope of the Force storms was vastly smaller. And only the last Force storm spawned from the Eclipse was really wanking.

It's a lot more subtle to throw a shroud over their abilities, passively, than to manifest itself as massive storms

[Illuminatus Primus]

The light side isn't about killing people? Come off it. It's quite obvious that Jedi feel perfectly justified in killing evil or even simply threatening beings, and rightfully so.

We're not talking pragmatism, but thematics. The theme of Vader's redemption was there even before Palpatine was supposed to die in the storyline. Its a personal battle. He's no longer trying to be the most powerful Jedi ever, he's no longer trying to be the Chosen One, he's no longer trying to stop people from dying. He's just trying to protect his son and preserve life.

The Jedi feel the need to kill people, but does that means its of the light side? Luke's defeat of the Emperor is figurative; its when he throws his lightsaber away, and refuses to fight. THAT is the light side, and so he says, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

I don't know where this brainbug of Jedi pacificism came from, but its pure bullshit. RotJ was about the redemption of Vader, which he accomplished in two ways- saving Luke, and killing the Emperor. "But he's not really dead" is incredibly bad story telling.

Yeah, which is why his death was a wrap-up tacked in. Okeedokee.

I never said a grand plan was squashed. Just from a story telling perspective, its complete crap.

You're right; it doesn't wrap up Palpatine within the context of the films. But that's life. It certainly doesn't assassinate Vader's redemption - as I said, it was there even before Palpatine's death.

Who said he's going to die anytime soon? He's practically ancient already (RotJ description of him).

"He's old already, so he won't ever die!" Wow, great logic.

Besides, he wants Luke as an apprentice, as Lucas said. Obviously, he figures he has enough time to train him and use him, just like he planned for Vader.

Use him? His use of him presuming he is not immortal is a powerful successor. Imminent death actually figures into an acute need for Luke. It hardly contradicts.

Which is bullshit. Luke managed to drag the huge, immobile body of Vader to a hangar bay before the Death Star blew- you don't think the Emperor would've gotten away in those circumstances?

How would he have not been shot down by the Rebels? Even so, this is just an ancilliary point.

Palpatine pretty much is Vader's darkness. However, bringing it back after Vader's already killed it is simply shit.

No, that's bullshit. Vader is responsible for his evil - responsible for his downfall. That's why his redemption is meaningful. He chose the darkness, and so he now chooses the light. Palpatine's death is just a means to an end; it is not an end in of itself. Like I said, how do you think he could have been redeemed originally if Palpatine was not even supposed to die yet and this were true?

You're forgetting that Luke chose to go there. And besides, he's the Son of the Suns, stronger than his father could have been before his maiming, therefore stronger than Palpatine, and he had grown very strong in the Force since he had last seen him. I have no doubt whatsoever that Luke could've easily escaped if he wanted to. He could've effortlessly killed any number of those who tried to stop him.

He's not invincible. And Palpatine did defeat him in the clone chamber, so you're wrong. End of that rant. Luke submitted to the storm so it would not chase him with his friends and possibly harm them. It was an act of sacrifice. Besides, its hardly a choice to the level you're implying since he had no idea where he was going or what he was finding.

It's incredibly stupid. He should know damn well that it doesn't work that way, he's been told and he's avoided it once.

What are you talking about? He succeeded. He destroyed the Imperial forces at Calamari and turned on Palpatine and destroyed him at the crucial point. His only mistake was overestimating his own personal strength - without Leia it might have been for naught. Anyhow, like I said, he hardly had a choice once in the citadel.

A good point, but putting Luke in a situation where he "chose to be there" and being offered such a concept as joining the Dark Side to destroy Palpatine from within is just foolishness.

He did not know enough about the circumstances and consequences of his choice to know what it would entail. He clearly just chose to submit to the storm to find its source and to avoid harm on his friends. If Luke knew everything ahead of time, then why didn't he warn the Republic about Byss? Why did Palpatine have to offer the deal if he already knew? So on and so forth. His foreknowledge was not extensive enough to make that interpolation.

Luke could sense that?

No, he couldn't. But Palpatine knew all that, and knew that it was tilted in his favor. But Luke had to try.

Who said Palpatine was near death? Also, the novelization makes it clear that his face after that scene is "the face of Sidious".. A much better explanation than any supposed clear implication (remember George Lucas has a line-edit of the novelization and reads the whole thing, if that wasn't his meaning he wouldn't have put it in there) is that his intensification of his powers meant he couldn't keep up the illusion any longer.

Palpatine was not going to survive indefinitely like that. There damage to his physical body is without thematic meaning without it somehow, y'know, actually BEING damage. Otherwise its meaningless.

It's a lot more subtle to throw a shroud over their abilities, passively, than to manifest itself as massive storms

Its not passive at all; its an active, deliberate move to manipulate the ability to use the Force against each and every Jedi for decades on end without them noticing the source. That is a HUGE feat. The storm is, as I proved, self-sustaining, so there's no evidence his power is actually proportionally manifested in the storm - he couldn't put the same power into, say, crushing a ship with telekinesis. He summons the Force storm, then attempts to guide it; but the storm persisted and consumed him after he had already been cut-off from the dark side and died.

[Vympel]

We're not talking pragmatism, but thematics. The theme of Vader's redemption was there even before Palpatine was supposed to die in the storyline. Its a personal battle. He's no longer trying to be the most powerful Jedi ever, he's no longer trying to be the Chosen One, he's no longer trying to stop people from dying. He's just trying to protect his son and preserve life.

Actually he's fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen One. That's kjust a nitpick though. The Emperor is the great villain responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order, the destruction of the Republic, and the slaughter of untold billions. His destruction is not a minor point.

The Jedi feel the need to kill people, but does that means its of the light side? Luke's defeat of the Emperor is figurative; its when he throws his lightsaber away, and refuses to fight. THAT is the light side, and so he says, "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

His throwing the lightsabre away was his refusal to kill his father like Palpatine told him to- you know, fulfill your destiny etc. That was the light side. One can assume he still thought that the DS2 would be destroyed with him and the Emperor on it.

Yeah, which is why his death was a wrap-up tacked in. Okeedokee.

Appealing to a speculative third trilogy that never happened? I just don't see what the point of this is. I'm talking about what did happen, not what could have happened that never did. In RotJ, the Emperor's death ain't a tacked on wrap-up.

I never said a grand plan was squashed. Just from a story telling perspective, its complete crap.

You're right; it doesn't wrap up Palpatine within the context of the films. But that's life. It certainly doesn't assassinate Vader's redemption - as I said, it was there even before Palpatine's death.

"He's old already, so he won't ever die!" Wow, great logic.

Strawman. Again, who said he's going to die anytime soon? I merely refer to the fact that he's described as ancient to negative any claim that he must be near death based on his looks.

Use him? His use of him presuming he is not immortal is a powerful successor. Imminent death actually figures into an acute need for Luke. It hardly contradicts.

We're not talking contradictions here. Just story criticism.

How would he have not been shot down by the Rebels? Even so, this is just an ancilliary point.

If Palpatine wasn't dead his canonical Battle Meditation (RotJ novelization) as well as HTTE would've assured Imperial victory in any event. He'd have a full escort and would probably either jump to hyperspace or head for the nearest Sar Destroyer.

No, that's bullshit. Vader is responsible for his evil - responsible for his downfall. That's why his redemption is meaningful. He chose the darkness, and so he now chooses the light. Palpatine's death is just a means to an end; it is not an end in of itself. Like I said, how do you think he could have been redeemed originally if Palpatine was not even supposed to die yet and this were true?

See what I said above about referring to a speculative third trilogy that never happened. I didn't say Vader wasn't responsible for his evil, but Palpatine is the personification of everything wrong with Vader. Palpatine seduced him to the dark side.

He's not invincible. And Palpatine did defeat him in the clone chamber, so you're wrong. End of that rant.

And Luke defeated him later on, on the Eclipse. Besides, I wasn't saying Luke should kill the Emperor- only that he shouldn't have gone in the first place, and even if he did, he had no need to fight the Emperor. He need only escape.

Luke submitted to the storm so it would not chase him with his friends and possibly harm them. It was an act of sacrifice. Besides, its hardly a choice to the level you're implying since he had no idea where he was going or what he was finding.

He had some idea. His reaction on seeing Palpatine was "somehow I knew" or some such. Besides, he could've used the force to turn the storm.

What are you talking about? He succeeded. He destroyed the Imperial forces at Calamari and turned on Palpatine and destroyed him at the crucial point. His only mistake was overestimating his own personal strength - without Leia it might have been for naught. Anyhow, like I said, he hardly had a choice once in the citadel.

It did not work. Come on, the comic says it straight out: he played the Emperor's game, and lost. Leia redeemed him. And the Imperial forces on Calamari were hardly a huge deal.

He did not know enough about the circumstances and consequences of his choice to know what it would entail. He clearly just chose to submit to the storm to find its source and to avoid harm on his friends. If Luke knew everything ahead of time, then why didn't he warn the Republic about Byss? Why did Palpatine have to offer the deal if he already knew? So on and so forth. His foreknowledge was not extensive enough to make that interpolation.

See above. He need not have gone, and if he had, that he had no choice but to submit himself to Palpatine or die is incorrect.

No, he couldn't. But Palpatine knew all that, and knew that it was tilted in his favor. But Luke had to try.

Do we mean RotJ now?

Palpatine was not going to survive indefinitely like that. There damage to his physical body is without thematic meaning without it somehow, y'know, actually BEING damage. Otherwise its meaningless.

Who said he need survive indefinitely? Only that he wasn't going to die anytime soon. He was certainly not maimed in any way by it.

Its not passive at all; its an active, deliberate move to manipulate the ability to use the Force against each and every Jedi for decades on end without them noticing the source. That is a HUGE feat. The storm is, as I proved, self-sustaining, so there's no evidence his power is actually proportionally manifested in the storm - he couldn't put the same power into, say, crushing a ship with telekinesis. He summons the Force storm, then attempts to guide it; but the storm persisted and consumed him after he had already been cut-off from the dark side and died.

Fair enough.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually he's fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen One. That's kjust a nitpick though. The Emperor is the great villain responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order, the destruction of the Republic, and the slaughter of untold billions. His destruction is not a minor point.

Vader's redemption was considered thematically complete even before Palpatine died in ROTJ. The rest of this is post facto stuff.

His throwing the lightsabre away was his refusal to kill his father like Palpatine told him to- you know, fulfill your destiny etc. That was the light side. One can assume he still thought that the DS2 would be destroyed with him and the Emperor on it.

How does this contradict me?

Appealing to a speculative third trilogy that never happened? I just don't see what the point of this is. I'm talking about what did happen, not what could have happened that never did. In RotJ, the Emperor's death ain't a tacked on wrap-up.

Yes it is, since Palpatine was never a central figure to begin with. Furthermore, Vader's redempetion was thematically complete before Palpatine's death was part of the script. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Palpatine's death is not an intrinsic part of that redemption. Therefore the "OMG HIS REDEMPTION IS NOTHING" emoting is rather exaggerated, unless you feel the original ROTJ would've been hollow and soulless for you.

Strawman. Again, who said he's going to die anytime soon? I merely refer to the fact that he's described as ancient to negative any claim that he must be near death based on his looks.

Ok? Vader goes on and on how the galaxy will lurch in horror from the not-too-far-off death of Palpatine.

See what I said above about referring to a speculative third trilogy that never happened. I didn't say Vader wasn't responsible for his evil, but Palpatine is the personification of everything wrong with Vader. Palpatine seduced him to the dark side.

You cannot use stuff we know now ex post facto to determine the thematic meaning of Vader's redemption - I'm sure we all agree that Vader's redemption was air tight the moment ROTJ aired.

My point with the sequel plans is GL considered Vader's redemption possible and thematically sensible without Palpatine's death. It only adds to it, if anything. It is not necessary.

And Luke defeated him later on, on the Eclipse. Besides, I wasn't saying Luke should kill the Emperor- only that he shouldn't have gone in the first place, and even if he did, he had no need to fight the Emperor. He need only escape.

And Palpatine would allow him? How would he overpower all the walkers, all the stormtroopers? All the dark side adepts, the fighters, the warships? He's the greatest Jedi potentially, but he's not God.

He had some idea. His reaction on seeing Palpatine was "somehow I knew" or some such. Besides, he could've used the force to turn the storm.

Wow, now you're really grasping. I don't think "You!" really describes such resigned awknowledgement. Its the same kind of thing as Leia's "somehow, I've always known." As in she actually really didn't. Be practical.

And furthermore, why didn't Luke divert the storm consuming his comrades-in-arms when he was on the Eclipse then? He had NO KNOWLEDGE OF FORCE STORMS AT ALL when he was consumed. You're taking bits and pieces and extrapolating he knew completely what he was getting into and had a total free choice. That's simply not backed up by hard evidence.

It did not work. Come on, the comic says it straight out: he played the Emperor's game, and lost. Leia redeemed him. And the Imperial forces on Calamari were hardly a huge deal.

He certainly came closer to winning than any of the others who tried - and moreover, Palpatine knows the past lessons of those who've tried - Luke does not.

See above. He need not have gone, and if he had, that he had no choice but to submit himself to Palpatine or die is incorrect.

Bullshit. He had no knowledge of Force storms and has never shown the ability to block or prevent them, much less on his first experience with them and before being tutored by Palpatine personally. There was also no way he was making it off Byss alive. Palpatine could've personally dispatched him in the throne room, and all of Palpatine's thralls could not all have been defeated. Hell, the entire inhabitable Deep Core is enclosed with grav traps from the Imperial Hyperspace Security Net. The only reason the Falcon could probably clear it is because they had the smugglers' routes and probably access codes in R2. Skywalker having just landed on Byss, assuming he bypasses whole mechanized armies, dark side cadre, Palpatine personally, Palpatine's Force storms, and huge fleets, has none of that.

Do we mean RotJ now?

No, DE.

Who said he need survive indefinitely? Only that he wasn't going to die anytime soon. He was certainly not maimed in any way by it.

See above, Vader remarks.

[Vympel]

Vader's redemption was considered thematically complete even before Palpatine died in ROTJ. The rest of this is post facto stuff.

How can it be thematically complete if he doesn't fulfill the prophecy as he was meant to? He destroyed the Sith. That was the prophecy. Except DE comes along and says- you know what? No you didn't. That's just stupid. And I don't see why post facto is somehow off limits- GL sees it at as one movie, and it's a lot more valid than referring to a draft of RotJ and subseuqent movies that did not actually happen.

How does this contradict me?

Because Luke still wanted the Emperor dead. Really, his "I'm not going to do it by my own hand" thing was just a foolish technicality. Mace Windu certainly had no compunctions about killing Sidious, and well he shouldn't have.

Yes it is, since Palpatine was never a central figure to begin with. Furthermore, Vader's redempetion was thematically complete before Palpatine's death was part of the script. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that Palpatine's death is not an intrinsic part of that redemption. Therefore the "OMG HIS REDEMPTION IS NOTHING" emoting is rather exaggerated, unless you feel the original ROTJ would've been hollow and soulless for you.

How can you seriously claim that tossing his master down that shaft is not an intrinsic part of his redemption? It's practically the very means he uses to save Luke's life. The Emperor is the dark soul of the Empire. He represents everything that the Rebellion is fighting against. His presence is the very reason why destroying the DS2 is so important. Look at Obi-Wan and Yoda. Conquer Vader and his Emperor. The Emperor has already won. And so on, and so forth.

Ok? Vader goes on and on how the galaxy will lurch in horror from the not-too-far-off death of Palpatine.

When?

You cannot use stuff we know now ex post facto to determine the thematic meaning of Vader's redemption - I'm sure we all agree that Vader's redemption was air tight the moment ROTJ aired.

Why not? It's certainly more valid to use stuff that's canon than a proposed draft of RotJ that never happened, isn't it? Vader's redemption in RotJ was always for me that he saved Luke's life, killed the Emperor and destroyed the Empire while doing it. Not just saving Luke.

My point with the sequel plans is GL considered Vader's redemption possible and thematically sensible without Palpatine's death. It only adds to it, if anything. It is not necessary.

Those sequels didn't happen- GL crafted a story whereby Vader's redemption was linked to the death of Palpatine. It was a huge part of RotJ, not an afterthought. See above- it is very necesssary.

And Palpatine would allow him? How would he overpower all the walkers, all the stormtroopers? All the dark side adepts, the fighters, the warships? He's the greatest Jedi potentially, but he's not God.

Those dark side adepts don't stand a chance in hell, even if they were stupid enough to fight him. We're talking about the more powerful son of the man who strolled into the Jedi Temple and killed Jedi Padawans, Knights and Masters- yes Clonetroopers did some of the work, but that still doesn't detract from what Anakin did by much. We're also talking someone who can beat Palpatine in a lightsabre duel, which is no joke, considering he kills three Masters in seconds. As for the fighters, walkers, stormtroopers, he doens't need to actually fight them all. Obi-Wan certainly wasn't so foolish when his Clonetroops turned on him, nor was Yoda.

Wow, now you're really grasping. I don't think "You!" really describes such resigned awknowledgement. Its the same kind of thing as Leia's "somehow, I've always known." As in she actually really didn't. Be practical.

He knew at least where he was choosing to go had really bad mojo. That cannot be denied.

And furthermore, why didn't Luke divert the storm consuming his comrades-in-arms when he was on the Eclipse then? He had NO KNOWLEDGE OF FORCE STORMS AT ALL when he was consumed. You're taking bits and pieces and extrapolating he knew completely what he was getting into and had a total free choice. That's simply not backed up by hard evidence.

See below regardng force storms.

He certainly came closer to winning than any of the others who tried - and moreover, Palpatine knows the past lessons of those who've tried - Luke does not.

He came close to winning, but he still failed. He made a mistake that he shouldn't have made. Even the comic itself admits this.

Bullshit. He had no knowledge of Force storms and has never shown the ability to block or prevent them, much less on his first experience with them and before being tutored by Palpatine personally. There was also no way he was making it off Byss alive. Palpatine could've personally dispatched him in the throne room, and all of Palpatine's thralls could not all have been defeated.

Palpatine mentioned that Luke could've killed him in that "scene". The difference is it would've done no good apparently. Also, Luke knows from RotJ that if it can be force generated, it can be force repelled (RotJ novelization). Luke repelled force lightning from Palpatine on his first encounter with it in the throne room.

Hell, the entire inhabitable Deep Core is enclosed with grav traps from the Imperial Hyperspace Security Net. The only reason the Falcon could probably clear it is because they had the smugglers' routes and probably access codes in R2. Skywalker having just landed on Byss, assuming he bypasses whole mechanized armies, dark side cadre, Palpatine personally, Palpatine's Force storms, and huge fleets, has none of that.

Where does it state this? Is that how the Falcon got through, definitely?

[quote

See above, Vader remarks.[/quote]

I don't know what remarks you refer to.

[Crown]

<rant>

I'll make this very clear to the 'I love DE brigade', you are either too mentally retarted to grasp the simple consept of closure, or you're whacked out ideologues with an ax to grind and hate it when someone points to your precious and says; 'that's stupid'. Either way, trying to change your minds is similar to pushing water up hill, but I'll give it on more shot;

If anyone of you, after having watched RotJ, came out of that cinema (or whatever) and thought to yourself; 'he'll (the Emperor) be back, he isn't really dead.' Then I'll shut the fuck up, because clearly you can't grasp basic story telling, or you grasp so much better than the rest of us, mundane peope - one of the two. But if you have the balls to admit that you too thought the Emperor dead, then just fess up. Bringing back a dead villian (again and again and again and again), having the main characters making mistakes and falling into pitfalls they avoided the first time, under greater stress I might add, is just fucking poor story telling.

If you don't find it all that bad, then fine - more power to you. But do me the courtesy of not trying to turn this around and try to play it off as perfectly reasonable, because it isn't. No, not even for a universe where you get your own X-ray done when been electrocuted by Force lightning.

</rant>

I mean seriously now, is it so hard for you to grasp that DE is a complete 180 degrees from RotJ and that a few people will just not buy its premise?


EDIT :: Vympel, you might want to edit the title to reflect the current discussion ... just tack on DE discussion at the end of the present one.

[NecronLord]

Furthermore, as illustrated by Wong on the website, the Force is not a matter of simple physical biological inheritance, genetic, midichlorian, or otherwise.

Be wary. It clearly is not simply strength of 'spirit' or any such thing, given that you can lop Vader's limbs off, and he goes from being >Sidious to <Sidious.

Besides, the suggestion is that midichlorians do not create the Force, but rather are more prevelent around nexi of the Living Force. That is, one is Force sensitive, and it causes high midichlorian counts, not the other way around. SW.com implies that high midichlorian counts MAY suggest strength in the Force - the qualifier suggests quite clearly they are not the causal agent.

That sounds very much like a cheap retcon of what Qui-Gon said.

And from what you know about ROTS and AOTC you think it is any more reasonable anyway? Personally I don't know what Obi-Wan and Yoda were hoping for - maybe the Will of the Force to intervene? Maybe themselves?

Never mind those two, Palpatine himself said that Luke could be able to destroy him.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'll make this very clear to the 'I love DE brigade', you are either too mentally retarted to grasp the simple consept of closure, or you're whacked out ideologues with an ax to grind and hate it when someone points to your precious and says; 'that's stupid'. Either way, trying to change your minds is similar to pushing water up hill, but I'll give it on more shot;

Well, I don't love DE (except for the maximalist part). But I don't hate it.

By this lame "closure" argument, one could argue that all of the EU should not have existed. Because the Empire symbolically died at Endor.

If anyone of you, after having watched RotJ, came out of that cinema (or whatever) and thought to yourself; 'he'll (the Emperor) be back, he isn't really dead.'

Nobody ever said that a story must go down the most obvious route.

But if you have the balls to admit that you too thought the Emperor dead, then just fess up. Bringing back a dead villian (again and again and again and again), having the main characters making mistakes and falling into pitfalls they avoided the first time, under greater stress I might add, is just fucking poor story telling.

Last time, Palpy used a stick. This time, he used a stick and a carrot. He clearly learnt from his last mistake.

Considering Palpy's power, it is really not a shock he managed to save himself. I thought he died too, but I'm not shocked when he didn't.

I mean seriously now, is it so hard for you to grasp that DE is a complete 180 degrees from RotJ and that a few people will just not buy its premise?

You just think it turned 180 degrees. Maybe it didn't. If what IP said is true, the Emperor's death served much the same purpose as the added celebrations at Coruscant and other places. Those who only plan to watch the films can treat it as closure of both the Emperor and the Empire. But of course the Empire did not die out then and there, and neither did the Emperor.

[Crown]

Well, I don't love DE (except for the maximalist part). But I don't hate it.

By this lame "closure" argument, one could argue that all of the EU should not have existed. Because the Empire symbolically died at Endor.

No. There is a difference.

It's a question of maintaining honesty with your audience. To borrow Mike's Endor arguement, if you blew up a bridge that our hero were standing under, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the bridge would fall on, and kill said hero?

That is the difference. Boba Fett coming back, I can buy. The Sarlacc was said to digest you slowly over 1000 years, so clearly if the fall its self wasn't fatal, with his armour and weapons, him fighting himself out of the Sarlac is reasonable - if a little contrived.

Palpy popping up like a bad Dracula villian in contrast isn't.

Nobody ever said that a story must go down the most obvious route.

There is a difference between 'obvious' and 'consistant'. And you didn't answer my question.*

Last time, Palpy used a stick. This time, he used a stick and a carrot. He clearly learnt from his last mistake.

Not plausible. Luke went into a Rage when Vader mentioned Leia ... he stopped. He didn't turn. Even though, one imagines, at the time he could have just fucking killed Vader (possibly even the Emperor - who knows?), he didn't.

Considering Palpy's power, it is really not a shock he managed to save himself. I thought he died too, but I'm not shocked when he didn't.

Considering the PT and the OT, yes it really is. The only evidence for him being able to do this comes from the EU - the bulk of it from the DESB. Isn't that a little stupid? Using DESB rationalisations to rationalise DE? Isn't this like using the Bible to rationalise the existance of God?

You just think it turned 180 degrees. Maybe it didn't. If what IP said is true, the Emperor's death served much the same purpose as the added celebrations at Coruscant and other places. Those who only plan to watch the films can treat it as closure of both the Emperor and the Empire. But of course the Empire did not die out then and there, and neither did the Emperor.

I'm sorry, if what IP said is true? Are you talking about the jetisoned three more movies after RotJ?


EDIT :: * oops, yes you did.