All YECs are Dead

[Nephtys]

It's like watching End of Evangelion! Exploding crucifix butter, hooraaah!

GAAAH! Damn it, I haven't seen End of Eva!

Lucky you. No, really. Lucky you. I want my two hours of existance back.

If nothing at all could make you believe, then it is still you who act irrationally. If any man would maintain any belief or lack of belief despite all evidence, then he's insane.

If a huge cloud opened up in the sky, and a giant halo of light opened up with a man descending with cherubim helping him down... I'm becoming a Christian immediately.

If people suddenly die en-masse, that's not 'proof' that God exists. It's just proof that something happened that we have no idea what caused it (for the moment). Could be god, Could be Daleks, could be the T-800, could be just being really, really unlucky for a few billion people.

Wong I believe meant to say.. we have proof it is possible to have intelligent life rise. Which is more concrete than we have of a divine creator shaping things happen. It IS a rational belief. He's not declaring it be Aliens off the bat. Just that it's a more likely explaination (even though it's out there), based simply on observed evidence.

[Lord Zentei]

Wong, I did not mean to say that saying that the judeo-christian God is more viable then aliens, although I don't necessarily agree that the diety, as described, is an impossibility.

I suggest you read the SAB or the brick testament.

I still believe that you'd have to be a bit insane (same thing as religious, basically) to maintain a belief despite a miraculous event with no discovered physical mechanism.

The issue is that you are suggesting that the miraculous event means that the Christian God is the most likely explanation or indeed a viable explanation at all. This is a non-sequitur.

If this crap weren't all hypothetical, would you really sit there, and say that it was aliens who had developed faster then light travel (as magically as a diety any day...), and come here just to take away religious fundamentalists, if no physical mechanism could be found.

You don't need FTL for stardrives. Anyway, there is a shitload of baggage that follows the beleif in the Christian God that would be unjustified in the event of this scenario. The simplest explanation that explains the observations is the one that it is logical to maintain, i.e. the one with the fewest unknowns. Unfortunately, not only does the Christian God come with a lot of baggage, he has been debunked on numerous points, so it is impossible to regard him as a viable option.

I mean, it makes no sense to just sit back, not investigate, and claim God did it, but seriously... would aliens be your back up? That's at least as fucking magical as a diety. And quit calling me a moron. That seems to be your general term for anybody that disagrees with you.

No. Aliens are not as magical as a deity. The possiblility of intelligent life on other worlds is far greater than the possibility of the Bible being correct.

If nothing at all could make you believe, then it is still you who act irrationally. If any man would maintain any belief or lack of belief despite all evidence, then he's insane.

What would be needed is not only some inexplicable miracle, but evidence that all the tons of evidence against the Bible were found to be fraudulent AND additional evidence that would make the Christian God more likely an explantion than any other. A tall order to say the least.

[Surlethe]

Wong, I did not mean to say that saying that the judeo-christian God is more viable then aliens, although I don't necessarily agree that the diety, as described, is an impossibility.

I say that you may be religiously anti-religious simply because you said it would be more logical to believe that aleins did it if suddenly a good portion of the world's population disappeared.

Looks to me like that's what you're implying.

I still believe that you'd have to be a bit insane (same thing as religious, basically) to maintain a belief despite a miraculous event with no discovered physical mechanism.

In other words, you're saying you believe if a "miraculous event" occurs, with no physical mechanism discovered yet, suddenly it's God.

If this crap weren't all hypothetical, would you really sit there, and say that it was aliens who had developed faster then light travel (as magically as a diety any day...), and come here just to take away religious fundamentalists, if no physical mechanism could be found.

As opposed to the alternative you're offering -- changing belief to the Judeo-Christian god, or any god for that matter -- yes. There is evidence life can arise completely naturally and without divine intervention. There is no evidence for a god.

I mean, it makes no sense to just sit back, not investigate, and claim God did it, but seriously... would aliens be your back up? That's at least as fucking magical as a diety. And quit calling me a moron. That seems to be your general term for anybody that disagrees with you.

What the fuck? At least as fucking magical as a deity? Are you out of your mind? Bible = disproven. Disproven. Life = proven. What is so hard to grasp about this? Belief in extraterrestrial life is certainly nowhere near as magical as a deity.

If nothing at all could make you believe, then it is still you who act irrationally. If any man would maintain any belief or lack of belief despite all evidence, then he's insane.

It is not irrational to disbelieve when either a) there is no evidence or b) it has been disproven.

[Morilore]

Wong, I did not mean to say that saying that the judeo-christian God is more viable then aliens, although I don't necessarily agree that the diety, as described, is an impossibility.

Unfortunately for you:

1) God is omnipotent; he possesses all power.
2) The ability to see the future correctly is a power.
3) The ability to alter the future is a power.
4) If the future is forseen correctly, it cannot be altered from the point of perception.
5) If the future is altered, any previous foresight is invalidated.
6) Thus, omnipotence is impossible.
7) Therefore, God does not exist.

[Nephtys]

Babelfish? What's th... *watches god vanish in a puff of logic*.

..damn.

[Darth Wong]

(sigh) obviously, zerowhatever is too goddamned stupid to understand that aliens are physically possible, however improbable, while the Biblical God is physically impossible. Nor does he apparently understand that it is not rational to choose a physically impossible "theory" over one which is physically possible.

[wolveraptor]

Whats funny is that Zero132132 has automatically assumed that "Judeo-Christian" God means "the God of the Bible of Christians". If his hypothetical event included the mysterious vanishing of fundie christians along side jews and muslims, then it could not possibly be the work of the God who "sent his only begotten son" to have his arteries impaled. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are mutually exclusive. You can't belong to two of any of the three, since Judaism says Jesus was bunk, Christianity says he was God and Islam says he was a prophet. Thus, it can be logically disproven that the Judeo-Christian God ever had a hand in this.














You know, I think it might be more interesting to postulate an event in which all fundamentalists, of all religions, suddenly left to colonize the newly discovered Earth-like planet of Jackassia, leaving the rest of the world to itself.

There'd be a war over control of the Middle-East, I bet.

[Surlethe]

You know, I think it might be more interesting to postulate an event in which all fundamentalists, of all religions, suddenly left to colonize the newly discovered Earth-like planet of Jackassia, leaving the rest of the world to itself.

There'd be a war over control of the Middle-East, I bet.

There already is one, remember?

So if they just leave, then there is a tremendous gap in the US government and economy, leading to anarchy for a while. Meanwhile, large sectors of the Arab nations disappear. Osama bin Laden is no longer a threat to the United States. Western Europe and China and Japan are practically untouched, and form a hegemony in the brave new world.

[Alliance SpecForceTrooper]

a big hardened shell above the atmosphere

Hmm...refresh my memory, please. Where does it state that there is a big hardened shell above the atmosphere in any Judeo-Christian religious text?

and a flat Earth would suddenly become true if this happened

Hmm....don't remember a flat Earth either.

No offense, but are you sure you are not confusing the interpretations of medieval thinkers upon the biblical canon?

I admit I have a bit of antipathy for people who claim to think that the Bible's more mystical elements are anything other than hogwash or the delusions of drug usage/brain instability. How anyone could believe that the Earth is a mere 5,000 yrs old is a bit touched in the head. Not all Christians believe that, nor do they believe that the Genesis story is anything other than a parable.

However, I do believe that parts of the biblical texts have been proven to be historically sound with regard to things not involving a religious nature: Ramses the Second, Cyrus the Great etc.

[Penfold]

a big hardened shell above the atmosphere

Hmm...refresh my memory, please. Where does it state that there is a big hardened shell above the atmosphere in any Judeo-Christian religious text?

It's designed to keep the waters in the sky from falling to the earth. It's mentioned when God is creating the world, and again when he floods it.

How anyone could believe that the Earth is a mere 5,000 yrs old is a bit touched in the head.

Where did that number come from anyway? I keep thinking about how many generations are in the Geneology, and the fact that the first few generations of humans lived for centuries (Adam was supposed to be over 900 when he died, and his children's lives were a couple of centuries shorter). I'm not sure all that can fit in the 3,000 year timespan the Bible allegedly covers.

[Alliance SpecForceTrooper]

It's designed to keep the waters in the sky from falling to the earth. It's mentioned when God is creating the world, and again when he floods it.

I'll have to take your word for it. I don't read the Bible that often and certainly not for a religious experience.

Where did that number come from anyway? I keep thinking about how many generations are in the Geneology, and the fact that the first few generations of humans lived for centuries (Adam was supposed to be over 900 when he died, and his children's lives were a couple of centuries shorter). I'm not sure all that can fit in the 3,000 year timespan the Bible allegedly covers.

I believe some scholars in the Medieval Period sat down and catalogued the lifespans of various peoples mentioned in the biblical canon and arrived at that number. Of course, they forgot the Western World was run on a Lunar based calender until Julius Caesar changed it IIRC (Roman history is not my area of study).

[Junghalli]

1) God is omnipotent; he possesses all power.
2) The ability to see the future correctly is a power.
3) The ability to alter the future is a power.
4) If the future is forseen correctly, it cannot be altered from the point of perception.
5) If the future is altered, any previous foresight is invalidated.
6) Thus, omnipotence is impossible.
7) Therefore, God does not exist.

Sophistry. Assume that God exists outside of time. Or assume that His being omnipotent is an exagerration. Whoops, there goes your "disproof".

[Darth Wong]

1) God is omnipotent; he possesses all power.
2) The ability to see the future correctly is a power.
3) The ability to alter the future is a power.
4) If the future is forseen correctly, it cannot be altered from the point of perception.
5) If the future is altered, any previous foresight is invalidated.
6) Thus, omnipotence is impossible.
7) Therefore, God does not exist.

Sophistry. Assume that God exists outside of time. Or assume that His being omnipotent is an exagerration. Whoops, there goes your "disproof".

God must interact with spacetime in order to observe it, much less affecting it. Whoops, there goes your bullshit.

[Junghalli]

God must interact with spacetime in order to observe it, much less affecting it. Whoops, there goes your bullshit.

If He exists outside of time He can affect all points in time and space simultaneously.

[Surlethe]

and a flat Earth would suddenly become true if this happened

Hmm....don't remember a flat Earth either.

Angels have to go to the four corners of the Earth in Revelation. A round Earth doesn't have corners.

God must interact with spacetime in order to observe it, much less affecting it. Whoops, there goes your bullshit.

Interacting with spacetime is not the same as being within spacetime. Whoops, there goes your evasion.

[wolveraptor]

How can you even discuss a being being outside space-time when we don't have a fucking clue what that might remotely be like?

[Morilore]

Assume that God exists outside of time.

A God that exists outside of time would still experience causality, i.e. he would do something to spacetime and spacetime would react. Ooh, what is that, is that time?

Or assume that His being omnipotent is an exagerration.

True dat.

If He exists outside of time He can affect all points in time and space simultaneously.

But he would still experience his own causality.

Interacting with spacetime is not the same as being within spacetime. Whoops, there goes your evasion.

Whoops, you completely missed the point.

[SirNitram]

God must interact with spacetime in order to observe it, much less affecting it. Whoops, there goes your bullshit.

If He exists outside of time He can affect all points in time and space simultaneously.

No he couldn't. He'd be a nondimensional nonbeing with no temporal direction to allow him to take nonactions. In other words: The concept of anything existing outside of time and space is bullshit, kindly pull your head out of your ass.

[Surlethe]

Assume that God exists outside of time.

A God that exists outside of time would still experience causality, i.e. he would do something to spacetime and spacetime would react. Ooh, what is that, is that time?

A God outside of time experiencing causality?

If He exists outside of time He can affect all points in time and space simultaneously.

But he would still experience his own causality.

Not if he's outside of time. Outside of time = no causality.

Interacting with spacetime is not the same as being within spacetime. Whoops, there goes your evasion.

Whoops, you completely missed the point.

The statement implied what you're explicitly saying, which is that God is subject to time, when the whole point is that he's not. That qualifies as an evasion.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Not if he's outside of time. Outside of time = no causality.

what makes you think that something can exist outside of time/causality? Why? Do we have any evidence of that? If he exists outside of time and causality, how can anything ever affect or affront him?

[SirNitram]

The statement implied what you're explicitly saying, which is that God is subject to time, when the whole point is that he's not. That qualifies as an evasion.

Suggestion: Leave the advanced concepts of dimensions to those qualified to hypothesize, dipshit. A being not subject to time cannot act or be acted upon. Why? Because any event requires a non-zero passage of time. Therefore, this 'outside of time' God could not create anything, nor be effected by any humans(Like, you know, getting pissed at their acts).

In short, fuck off, ignorant cockmonkey.

[Alliance SpecForceTrooper]

Angels have to go to the four corners of the Earth in Revelation. A round Earth doesn't have corners.

Hmm.....I'm not sure that the term was meant to be literal. Besides, Revelation has nothing to do with Prophecy and everything to do with political commentary on the state of the Roman Empire. But then again, most people don't believe that.....

[Surlethe]

what makes you think that something can exist outside of time/causality? Why? Do we have any evidence of that? If he exists outside of time and causality, how can anything ever affect or affront him?

Faith. Faith = WoI = violation of Occam's Razor, which is how I can do this: so effectively.

Suggestion: Leave the advanced concepts of dimensions to those qualified to hypothesize, dipshit. A being not subject to time cannot act or be acted upon. Why? Because any event requires a non-zero passage of time. Therefore, this 'outside of time' God could not create anything, nor be effected by any humans(Like, you know, getting pissed at their acts).

In short, fuck off, ignorant cockmonkey.

You're full of bullshit. It's fallacious to speak of God "acting" or "affecting" because any actions or affections require time. God IS. That's the point of saying God is outside of time: any actions God takes are.

Your entire sophistry relies on God having free will, when in fact nothing like that is or has been established.

Hmm.....I'm not sure that the term was meant to be literal. Besides, Revelation has nothing to do with Prophecy and everything to do with political commentary on the state of the Roman Empire. But then again, most people don't believe that.....

That's what's commonly accepted, but if it is to be taken literally, then you get a flat earth. I don't think it was to be taken literally, but there are always assholes who do.

[SirNitram]

Suggestion: Leave the advanced concepts of dimensions to those qualified to hypothesize, dipshit. A being not subject to time cannot act or be acted upon. Why? Because any event requires a non-zero passage of time. Therefore, this 'outside of time' God could not create anything, nor be effected by any humans(Like, you know, getting pissed at their acts).

In short, fuck off, ignorant cockmonkey.

You're full of bullshit. It's fallacious to speak of God "acting" or "affecting" because any actions or affections require time. God IS. That's the point of saying God is outside of time: any actions God takes are.

Your entire sophistry relies on God having free will, when in fact nothing like that is or has been established.

Referring to my comment as sophistry is truly ironic, kiddo. It's about as far from the original meaning as is physically possible, but you're clearly too dumb to get that. So you just claim I'm making a fallacious argument.. Alright, fucktard. Time for the flaming you deserve, interspiced with why you're full of it.

God acts fucktard. If you are speaking of the biblical God, he performs actions, as anyone can see in the first few pages from Genesis. For this to happen, he requires time to pass. Indeed, he requires days to pass. Strike one.

Your 'God IS' bullshit. First off, that's pulled from your ass. Made up to cover for the fact you wouldn't know what is involved in being outside of space and time means. Strictly speaking, anything not in fourspace is better defined as 'IS NOT' as it possesses no quantifiable qualities. How can I be sure? All methods for quantification rely on something's existance in time and space, it's weight, volume, length, age..

It is not fallacious to declare God requires time, because we know nothing can be or happen without time. I challenge you to back up your claim it's a fallacy. Go on. Show your stuff, little child.

[wolveraptor]

Angels have to go to the four corners of the Earth in Revelation. A round Earth doesn't have corners.

Hmm.....I'm not sure that the term was meant to be literal. Besides, Revelation has nothing to do with Prophecy and everything to do with political commentary on the state of the Roman Empire. But then again, most people don't believe that.....

Ah of course. Whenever something in the Bible defies logic and scientific observation, it must not be literal. But don't y'all worry! The rest is true!!![/sarcasm]

There already is one, remember?

So if they just leave, then there is a tremendous gap in the US government and economy, leading to anarchy for a while. Meanwhile, large sectors of the Arab nations disappear. Osama bin Laden is no longer a threat to the United States. Western Europe and China and Japan are practically untouched, and form a hegemony in the brave new world.

Ah, but this one would be all-out, between nearly every advanced nation on Earth. Whoever gets this place controls basically the economies of all other industrialized or aspiring-to-be-industrialized nations on the planet. The middle east can be used to make anyone bow to your demands.

America would be in deep shit. With most of its population gone (and I'm willing to bet that those that are gone are the ones that would've served in the military), it'd be severely crippled, and might reinstitute a draft. Europe would probably form an alliance. They're already economically allied, and any serious pressure like this might wash away any irrational nationalism. After all, no one would want to be fighting against everyone else.