Question about the Emperor...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That contradicts RotJ and RotS, so I don't know what to make of it. *shrug* Best rationalisation; he was lying, or not being completely honest with Luke.

Personally, I think he was telling the truth in HTTE. What went wrong, if you ask me, was that he violated the contract. There was no violation. It may be that if he kept to the contract he would have lived forever (though considering Qui-Gon only tried it for about 15 years so far, there is no guarantee).

The Whillis Process allows you a sort of Immortality, at the price of all your attachments (dammit, Vympel, please put SPOILER on the page title so we don't have to do this resizing shit anymore!)

Yet Obi-Wan still clearly had attachments. Note how many times he goes to see Luke (and you apparently think he tried to jam the Emperor in ROTJ). You can't say you've given up all your attachments in the universe and still keep intervening on events in the Physical Plane!

This makes sense too, if you ask me. Since they clearly are not living, they are no longer generating life force, and perhaps unable to even induct it. They are basically living on batteries. If they don't intervene, the battery would last them forever. If they intervene, their battery runs flat fast. That may be one of the reasons why the "no-attachment" clause is essential. If you are attached to something, you will feel compelled to intervene (or even stay and watch), and that zaps your battery. Of course, that's just my pet hypothesis.

And while it wasn't for exactly the reason I predicted, we now know for sure that Obi-Wan had to stand still while Vader sliced him. He didn't have a choice.

Huh

Some time ago, we debated about who was winning in ANH, Obi-Wan or Vader. You insisted Obi-Wan let Vader win. Vympel and I thought it was a matter of time. At the end of it, I put a little proposition about Obi-Wan having to stand there to perform his little trick. While the precise reason for the requirement was incorrect, I was still correct on him being forced to stand like an idiot.. So there!

Basically, he couldn't meet those requirements you just wrote up there while defending against Vader. You can't keep defending your body and claim you hadn't given up your self.

[Crown]

<snip>

Hehe. I like the fact that you minimised attachments but not Qui-Gon!

I actually like your hypothesis, but (if we were to take it as is for now), wouldn't Ben telling Luke that he can no longer visit him anymore mean that he wasn't dying - but just his batteries running on low or something?

Another thing though, they merge, they become one with the Force, so I don't think they have the battery limit thing. Sort of see my previous post about them really not meant to be interfering. Still it is a nice discussion to be having, and your attachment point is something to consider.

Some time ago, we debated about who was winning in ANH, Obi-Wan or Vader. You insisted Obi-Wan let Vader win. Vympel and I thought it was a matter of time. At the end of it, I put a little proposition about Obi-Wan having to stand there to perform his little trick. While the precise reason for the requirement was incorrect, I was still correct on him being forced to stand like an idiot.. So there!

Basically, he couldn't meet those requirements you just wrote up there while defending against Vader. You can't keep defending your body and claim you hadn't given up your self.

Oh that, I already thought of that back in 2003; here and in the two posts below that one here. So no, all my contention is that Obi-Wan had to let Vader win (novelisation aside) ... I just humour Vympel in letting him think that Obi-Wan isn't the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars.

EDIT :: Fixed my links.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It's a question of maintaining honesty with your audience. To borrow Mike's Endor arguement, if you blew up a bridge that our hero were standing under, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the bridge would fall on, and kill said hero?

1) Anime characters survive similar shit all the time
2) More seriously, if there was a good explanation, it might be acceptable.

Not plausible. Luke went into a Rage when Vader mentioned Leia ... he stopped. He didn't turn. Even though, one imagines, at the time he could have just fucking killed Vader (possibly even the Emperor - who knows?), he didn't.

He managed to resist his surge of anger. Kudos for him. This does not equate an equal immunity to temptation, or even hopes for a "ends justify means". As IP pointed out, it was pretty bleak for him at the Emperor's palace.

Considering the PT and the OT, yes it really is. The only evidence for him being able to do this comes from the EU - the bulk of it from the DESB. Isn't that a little stupid? Using DESB rationalisations to rationalise DE? Isn't this like using the Bible to rationalise the existance of God?

The EU has the power to add extra abilities not in evidence in the movies. The fact a power was first mentioned in the EU is not a good argument against it. Is there even an indication within the G-canon that Palpy won't be able to do this? (Never mind a 100% irreconcilable direct contradiction, just one that felt kind of like one - like Wankatine.)

The idea of a soul being able to eject after death is both in the OT and PT. If Obi-Wan could eject from his body and keep his soul together for years, what's so objectionable about Palpy extending a similar ability one step further and being able to reach a clone using that power? It is an application of much the same power!

I'm sorry, if what IP said is true? Are you talking about the jetisoned three more movies after RotJ?

Yeah. I don't know how IP came about to Lucas' original intentions. But if true, it does show that any ideas about how Lucas intended the redemption to have mandated Palpatine's kill, and that the original idea was that Palpy didn't die!

[Crown]

2) More seriously, if there was a good explanation, it might be acceptable.

A point I wholey agree with.

He managed to resist his surge of anger. Kudos for him. This does not equate an equal immunity to temptation, or even hopes for a "ends justify means". As IP pointed out, it was pretty bleak for him at the Emperor's palace.

IP is wrong then. And I didn't properly answer this the first time, so sorry about that. The stakes for Luke at Endor;

• Him.
• The entire Rebel Fleet as well as the leadership.
• All his friends on Endor.
• Leia.

All of these things Palpatine had in the palm of his hand - at that moment - not something that might be at risk if he should fall to Palpatine (like in DE). Also earlier you mentioned Palpatine (in DE) used stick and carrot, whereas in RotJ it was just stick. I'm sorry but I disagree, in RotJ the stick didn't come out until he (Palpy) had decided to kill Luke on general principle. Before then it was nothing but carrott; take your Jedi weapon, strike me down.

The EU has the power to add extra abilities not in evidence in the movies. The fact a power was first mentioned in the EU is not a good argument against it. Is there even an indication within the G-canon that Palpy won't be able to do this? (Never mind a 100% irreconcilable direct contradiction, just one that felt kind of like one - like Wankatine.)

I agree - the EU does have this power. Which is why I'm not a movie purist. I'm not standing on the top of my soapbox saying 'it isn't official because it adds wankantine'!!!! I'm saying it's fucking stupid because it resurected the fucking villian who died, transformed him into a fucking vampire, changed the main characters into un-recognizable charactures of themselves and (to a lesser extent) added wankantine.

The idea of a soul being able to eject after death is both in the OT and PT. If Obi-Wan could eject from his body and keep his soul together for years, what's so objectionable about Palpy extending a similar ability one step further and being able to reach a clone using that power? It is an application of much the same power!

The 'death surge' of Palpy is what I thought of reading this as being a way to answer how him being thrown to his (supposed) death was really his soul fleeing for his nearest clone ... but unfortunately it is still fucking stupid, and not at least contradicts other sources (TLC - C'boath) and the new info from RotS.

Like I said, it's not that I can't rationalise it as being apart of continuity, I just wish it wasn't.

Yeah. I don't know how IP came about to Lucas' original intentions. But if true, it does show that any ideas about how Lucas intended the redemption to have mandated Palpatine's kill, and that the original idea was that Palpy didn't die!

Writer's intent changes ... and oh look, it did.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Hehe. I like the fact that you minimised attachments but not Qui-Gon!

The attachments part was new for ROTS. Qui-Gon somehow managing to keep his soul in one piece we knew since AOTC, when he went "Anakin! No!" as Anakin took his anger out on a Tusken village.

I actually like your hypothesis, but (if we were to take it as is for now), wouldn't Ben telling Luke that he can no longer visit him anymore mean that he wasn't dying - but just his batteries running on low or something?

Something like that. AFAIK, after this, he basically really didn't show up to Luke again. He would certainly have come in handy for a few events afterwards...

Another thing though, they merge, they become one with the Force, so I don't think they have the battery limit thing. Sort of see my previous post about them really not meant to be interfering. Still it is a nice discussion to be having, and your attachment point is something to consider.

The attachment is directly based off Qui-Gon, while the rest is a bit of an extension in an attempt to explain it more "scientifically" (as far as is possible with the Force).

If they literally become one, they can't have their own wills anymore. That would be like Cup of Water becoming one with the Lake - the cup of water basically becomes non-existent as a separate entity.

Personally, I see it more like a Cup of Coffee being thrown into the Lake, except the Cup of Coffee manages to stick together. They are kind of merged, yet the coffee is clearly having a will distinct from the Lake.

Crappy analogy, but you get the idea.

Oh that, I already thought of that back in 2003; here and in the two posts below that one here. So no, all my contention is that Obi-Wan had to let Vader win (novelisation aside) ... I just humour Vympel in letting him think that Obi-Wan isn't the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars.

All right. You win on who proposed it first. But since Obi-Wan had to stand that way, it clearly meant he had little choice. He can try to defend himself and get sliced (which means he would disappear). Or he can stand like a statue in preparation for that power. His choice to get killed so early on clearly suggested he had little choice in the matter (like we said)

[Crown]

The attachment is directly based off Qui-Gon, while the rest is a bit of an extension in an attempt to explain it more "scientifically" (as far as is possible with the Force).

If they literally become one, they can't have their own wills anymore. That would be like Cup of Water becoming one with the Lake - the cup of water basically becomes non-existent as a separate entity.

Personally, I see it more like a Cup of Coffee being thrown into the Lake, except the Cup of Coffee manages to stick together. They are kind of merged, yet the coffee is clearly having a will distinct from the Lake.

Crappy analogy, but you get the idea.

Argh ....

SPOILER SKIP THIS BIT FOR THE REST OF YOU


True, but Yoda also said that they'd still have influence, hard to imagine what the point of that would be if you weren't allowed influence the physical plane - or at the very least check in with your attachments ... odd.

SPOILER BIT FOR THE REST OF YOU HAS ENDED

All right. You win on who proposed it first. But since Obi-Wan had to stand that way, it clearly meant he had little choice. He can try to defend himself and get sliced (which means he would disappear). Or he can stand like a statue in preparation for that power. His choice to get killed so early on clearly suggested he had little choice in the matter (like we said)

Actually, IIRC, my point was that Vader stood around like a stunned mullet while Obi-Wan was preparing himself. If nothing else this speaks volumes about his Mack-Daddy status that he totally confuses the guy trying to kill him long enough to join with the Force!

[Illuminatus Primus]

IP is wrong then. And I didn't properly answer this the first time, so sorry about that. The stakes for Luke at Endor;

• Him.
• The entire Rebel Fleet as well as the leadership.
• All his friends on Endor.
• Leia.

All of these things Palpatine had in the palm of his hand - at that moment - not something that might be at risk if he should fall to Palpatine (like in DE). Also earlier you mentioned Palpatine (in DE) used stick and carrot, whereas in RotJ it was just stick. I'm sorry but I disagree, in RotJ the stick didn't come out until he (Palpy) had decided to kill Luke on general principle. Before then it was nothing but carrott; take your Jedi weapon, strike me down.

And Luke's lynch pin is Vader. He thinks he can redeem his father. And if he fails, carry them with him via the Alliance attack. Luke has no allies, potential allies, plan, or immient allied attack. He has NOTHING accept he now knows simply cutting Palpatine down will not stop him, and he has the means to retake the galaxy and corrupt Leia - and more importantly, her children.

Luke DOES have a better plan than join Palpatine - redeem his father and have the Rebel attack succeed. He has nothing in DE.

[Crown]

And Luke's lynch pin is Vader. He thinks he can redeem his father. And if he fails, carry them with him via the Alliance attack. Luke has no allies, potential allies, plan, or immient allied attack. He has NOTHING accept he now knows simply cutting Palpatine down will not stop him, and he has the means to retake the galaxy and corrupt Leia - and more importantly, her children.

Luke DOES have a better plan than join Palpatine - redeem his father and have the Rebel attack succeed. He has nothing in DE.

I agree. But I'd put that on the side of even more pressure on Luke in RotJ. He takes a swing at the Emperor (out of rage, fustration, succumbing to the Emperor's goading) and ends up fighting Vader instead. He then backs off (wants to redeem his father), goes bat-crazy at the mention of Leia, and then just surrenders.

I think Luke was hoping that Vader would turn after that - or the Rebels might pull off a victory and kill all three of them in the bargain - but it wasn't exactly a plan he could have banked on happening the way it did; see his look of utter confusion when he suddenly realises he isn't being zapped anymore (although I will grant that it could be disorientation). Either way, I don't think you can put Vader/Anakin on the 'ace up the sleeve' colum and then ignore all the other things the Emperor had in his hand in RotJ that he didn't in DE. I certainly don't remember reading anything to that affect.

Although something is hitting a memory string here, with TLC where Luke talks to Mara about what happened on the DS2 ...


EDIT :: I should make it clear that I agree with the Vader point with the above (just in case there was confusion). But I still don't see why he wouldn't just kill the Emperor for shits and giggles anyway. I mean the last time it happened it took the old coot 5 years to come back (argh) and it's not as if he couldn't have, they were alone in the room together, and I highly doubt any of the Dark Side adepts would have stood a chance against a guy that can crush an AT-AT like a coke can.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And Luke's lynch pin is Vader. He thinks he can redeem his father. And if he fails, carry them with him via the Alliance attack. Luke has no allies, potential allies, plan, or immient allied attack. He has NOTHING accept he now knows simply cutting Palpatine down will not stop him, and he has the means to retake the galaxy and corrupt Leia - and more importantly, her children.

Luke DOES have a better plan than join Palpatine - redeem his father and have the Rebel attack succeed. He has nothing in DE.

I agree. But I'd put that on the side of even more pressure on Luke in RotJ. He takes a swing at the Emperor (out of rage, fustration, succumbing to the Emperor's goading) and ends up fighting Vader instead. He then backs off (wants to redeem his father), goes bat-crazy at the mention of Leia, and then just surrenders.

I think Luke was hoping that Vader would turn after that - or the Rebels might pull off a victory and kill all three of them in the bargain - but it wasn't exactly a plan he could have banked on happening the way it did; see his look of utter confusion when he suddenly realises he isn't being zapped anymore (although I will grant that it could be disorientation). Either way, I don't think you can put Vader/Anakin on the 'ace up the sleeve' colum and then ignore all the other things the Emperor had in his hand in RotJ that he didn't in DE. I certainly don't remember reading anything to that affect.

Although something is hitting a memory string here, with TLC where Luke talks to Mara about what happened on the DS2 ...

I don't think the fact that the plan was shitty, desperate, or almost didn't work changes the fact that in DE there was NO PLAN and NO POTENTIAL MEANS OF VICTORY. In DE the only choices are submit and live to fight another day maybe or just fucking die and lose.

[Crown]

I don't think the fact that the plan was shitty, desperate, or almost didn't work changes the fact that in DE there was NO PLAN and NO POTENTIAL MEANS OF VICTORY. In DE the only choices are submit and live to fight another day maybe or just fucking die and lose.

Look I understand your arguement, but what you fail to realise is whether or not Luke had that plan going in it went STRAIGHT OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW right before he took a swing at the Emperor. Did you miss that part of the movie? The Emperor; "Oh you have a handfull of sabateours on planet do you ... well guess what? I know! See I was the one that allowed the location to be leaked, I have an entire legion stationed on the ground and they are probably arresting your friends right now. Oh your fleet is here is it? Watch as my fleet boxes them in ... I know you're asking why, I'll show you. Oi, fire dude, start blasting the fuck out of the rebel fleet. You see my young apprentice? There are no suprises here, you've all walked into my trap, neat eh? Bet you want to strike me down now don't you? Not to sure that you'll friends will win now huh?"

Get it now? When one has a plan - that goes totally out of the fucking window that will mean the death of everyone he loves and cares for he did not turn. Even then, when Luke's hopes were dashed he didn't turn to the Dark Side (he nearly did). Even when they discover that Leia exists, he didn't turn to the Dark Side. Get it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't think the fact that the plan was shitty, desperate, or almost didn't work changes the fact that in DE there was NO PLAN and NO POTENTIAL MEANS OF VICTORY. In DE the only choices are submit and live to fight another day maybe or just fucking die and lose.

Look I understand your arguement, but what you fail to realise is whether or not Luke had that plan going in it went STRAIGHT OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW right before he took a swing at the Emperor.

So what? Then he is there, he is irrational and angry, and that doesn't mean he wasn't still trying "I can feel the good in you" was AFTER that, buddy?

Did you miss that part of the movie? The Emperor; "Oh you have a handfull of sabateours on planet do you ... well guess what? I know! See I was the one that allowed the location to be leaked, I have an entire legion stationed on the ground and they are probably arresting your friends right now. Oh your fleet is here is it? Watch as my fleet boxes them in ... I know you're asking why, I'll show you. Oi, fire dude, start blasting the fuck out of the rebel fleet. You see my young apprentice? There are no suprises here, you've all walked into my trap, neat eh? Bet you want to strike me down now don't you? Not to sure that you'll friends will win now huh?"

Get it now? When one has a plan - that goes totally out of the fucking window that will mean the death of everyone he loves and cares for he did not turn. Even then, when Luke's hopes were dashed he didn't turn to the Dark Side (he nearly did). Even when they discover that Leia exists, he didn't turn to the Dark Side. Get it?

Point being? He makes a measured decision not to fall to the dark side. I do not necessarily think he thought Palpatine would kill him immediately, but by the point he could have felt the shield collapse. Regardless, he had given his attempt.

I'm just at a loss to see what you really expect Luke to do in DE; is he supposed to say, "No Palpy! That's wrong on principle!" and then get fucking killed? Luke entered the ROTJ situation with a plan that he consistently at least tried to succeed on. Once Palpatine ALREADY began to attack him he essentially already lost and there was no choices to be made. I figure he basically gave up on his father by the time he sliced off his sword hand. At that point he was just giving up and hoping for the salvation of his soul, probably hoping the Death Star blows up with all of them still on-board.

However - he actually does have an option in DE. He is much stronger now, and he can hope to defeat Palpatine one way or another. If he refuses Palpatine he dies, and Palpatine cannot be stopped by anyone except Luke - Luke has the hope that the Death Star will be destroyed with him on-board, at least. Palpatine is secure, he is immortal, and he is more powerful, and he is winning in DE. And Luke is hubristic. He believes he can overcome the dark side. Moreover, in ROTJ, Luke believes that Palpatine needs him - he needs a replacement for Vader. Without a replacement, the Sith will go extinct. Now, in DE, Luke knows this is untrue, and he has the hubris of experience, perseverence, and mastery. In ROTJ, at least with time there was the appearance that as long as he did not turn, the darkness would eventually end. But in DE, he knows that's not true. Palpatine will not simply die eventually or the rebellion overturn him. He is secure on Byss, and he is immortal. And Luke fancies himself a Master by his own decree. Its a different ball-game.

[Crown]

So what? Then he is there, he is irrational and angry, and that doesn't mean he wasn't still trying "I can feel the good in you" was AFTER that, buddy?

Yes, which was immediately followed by the Leia relevation - which once again sent him tottering on the edge - to which he ONCE AGAIN pulled himself back. Right?

Point being? He makes a measured decision not to fall to the dark side. I do not necessarily think he thought Palpatine would kill him immediately, but by the point he could have felt the shield collapse. Regardless, he had given his attempt.

He took one swing at Palpy and ended up fighting Vader. He realised this wasn't helping any (poor wording and skiping over previously covered points but I trust you enough to realise what I mean) and then said fuck it, I'm not fighting anymore. I missed the part where he changed gears and said I'll join for the fun of it.

I'm just at a loss to see what you really expect Luke to do in DE; is he supposed to say, "No Palpy! That's wrong on principle!" and then get fucking killed? Luke entered the ROTJ situation with a plan that he consistently at least tried to succeed on. Once Palpatine ALREADY began to attack him he essentially already lost and there was no choices to be made. I figure he basically gave up on his father by the time he sliced off his sword hand. At that point he was just giving up and hoping for the salvation of his soul, probably hoping the Death Star blows up with all of them still on-board.

ACT LIKE A FUCKING JEDI is what I expected of him. The same guy who while everything, everything he loved was on the fucking line, he said NO to the Emperor. This isn't a real hard concept to understand.

However - he actually does have an option in DE. He is much stronger now, and he can hope to defeat Palpatine one way or another. If he refuses Palpatine he dies, and Palpatine cannot be stopped by anyone except Luke - Luke has the hope that the Death Star will be destroyed with him on-board, at least. Palpatine is secure, he is immortal, and he is more powerful, and he is winning in DE. And Luke is hubristic. He believes he can overcome the dark side. Moreover, in ROTJ, Luke believes that Palpatine needs him - he needs a replacement for Vader. Without a replacement, the Sith will go extinct. Now, in DE, Luke knows this is untrue, and he has the hubris of experience, perseverence, and mastery. In ROTJ, at least with time there was the appearance that as long as he did not turn, the darkness would eventually end. But in DE, he knows that's not true. Palpatine will not simply die eventually or the rebellion overturn him. He is secure on Byss, and he is immortal. And Luke fancies himself a Master by his own decree. Its a different ball-game.

He can certainly hope to kill the old twat again - with whom he is alone in a fucking room with, not more than an arm's reach away. Like I said, if killing him once set him back 5 years, he should have at least fucking tried it again, and it's not as if any of Palpy's thralls would have a snow flake's chance in hell in stopping him from getting off the fucking planet. Or from going on a rampage latter and maybe taking out Palpy's clones (like he tried to do anyway - but only after he joined the Dark Side).

And you're wrong in that Luke was the only one that could destroy the Emperor. You're forgetting Leia.

Either way there is no way the desperation in the RotJ showdown is matched - or indeed surpassed - by the DE showdown scene. The fact that the Dark Side Luke tries this only a few weeks (months?) later just proves it. Face it, Luke turned out of curiousity in DE - despite resisting when things were more desperate in RotJ and despite being less powerfull in RotJ.

[Kurgan]

One could also open a can of worms by arguing that the "lightside" is an EU interpretation of the Force anyway. Lucas seems to be saying that there is just "the Force" and then there's the abberation of the Force (or paraforce, as it was called in the early drafts), the "Dark Side of the Force."

Calling it the "Light/Dark" side sets up some kind of Yin/Yang thing, which is how people have commonly interpreted the "balance" thing. There must be an equal number of Dark Jedi or Sith and Jedi, rather than merely wiping out the Dark Side powers (embodied by the Sith Lords). This Light/Dark thing also makes it possible for the EU to later open up the whole "well there is no Dark or Light Side only intention" mess in an attempt to undermine everything and make it all relative for edginess sake or something.

Another annoying feature of DE is the contrived resurrection of Boba Fett, to appease the Fett fanboys. ;p

DE for me was a guilty pleasure... when you stop and think about it, it was crappy as Star Wars, and yet I enjoyed it all the same.

It also had all those super weapons and uber troops that were creative but sounded like fanwank... robot fighters with the souls of dead pilots in the memory? Dark Side powered Rancors? Planet eating droid fighter factories that are invincible except for a hacker loophole?

Then we get 'the Tree Jedi'. Thank you.

DE's Luke with his "I'll destroy the Dark Side from the inside by joining it" is kind of retreading what his father did. Didn't Luke learn his lesson already in ROTJ? They're just trying to replay the same story except with Luke as Vader and Leia in Luke's former place. It's almost as bad as what Nemesis did with TWOK in Trek.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

SPOILER SKIP THIS BIT FOR THE REST OF YOU

True, but Yoda also said that they'd still have influence, hard to imagine what the point of that would be if you weren't allowed influence the physical plane - or at the very least check in with your attachments ... odd.

SPOILER BIT FOR THE REST OF YOU HAS ENDED

Yet you are not supposed to have attachments according to Qui-Gon, so there should be nothing you want to visit! That was the deal. And it is hard to find reasons to influence the physical plane if you aren't attached in any way to it, just as you won't feel interested in influencing the activities of an ant colony in the forest.

I think it is like a fundie Christian type "Free Will" thing (nice this is SDN, because I won't be able to safely use this analogy anywhere else). You can have free will, but you better be agreeing with God. In other words, you really don't.

To be fair, They also blather about becoming "more powerful" (this is not exactly a spoiler because they've been blathering this ever since ANH) after their death. In a sense, they moved out of the reach of the Sith. But otherwise, becoming a ghost and being able to talk occasionally with their forbidden buddies is not considered a great substitute for being alive by most people.

Actually, IIRC, my point was that Vader stood around like a stunned mullet while Obi-Wan was preparing himself. If nothing else this speaks volumes about his Mack-Daddy status that he totally confuses the guy trying to kill him long enough to join with the Force!

Well, if someone spat that stuff out at me, I will think for a bit first. Then I'd laugh and slice him. It was clever if he needed a few seconds to prep himself, but that's about it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

One could also open a can of worms by arguing that the "lightside" is an EU interpretation of the Force anyway. Lucas seems to be saying that there is just "the Force" and then there's the abberation of the Force (or paraforce, as it was called in the early drafts), the "Dark Side of the Force."

Even though we know Lucas' supervision over EU is lax, I find it hard to believe that an entire "Light Side" of the Force can be introduced over his objections or knowledge.

This Light/Dark thing also makes it possible for the EU to later open up the whole "well there is no Dark or Light Side only intention" mess in an attempt to undermine everything and make it all relative for edginess sake or something.

That was honestly the best idea that ever happened.

Then we get 'the Tree Jedi'. Thank you.

The tree was awful, I'd admit. Man, you just reminded me of that stupid Tree!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

ACT LIKE A FUCKING JEDI is what I expected of him. The same guy who while everything, everything he loved was on the fucking line, he said NO to the Emperor. This isn't a real hard concept to understand.

When he said "No", he didn't even know Palpy can throw Force Lightning at him. Young and inexperienced he was...

He can certainly hope to kill the old twat again - with whom he is alone in a fucking room with, not more than an arm's reach away. Like I said, if killing him once set him back 5 years,

Does he know about the 5 years part? I'd say ROTJ would teach one much about the problems of directly attacking Palpy.

he should have at least fucking tried it again, and it's not as if any of Palpy's thralls would have a snow flake's chance in hell in stopping him from getting off the fucking planet.

Except for those wonderful Universal Energy Cages (by the way, I loved that concept). He doesn't know one won't be around to trip him.

And you're wrong in that Luke was the only one that could destroy the Emperor. You're forgetting Leia.

Without any guidance, I doubt this. There are just about no qualified teachers left that Luke nows of. As of the end of DFR (not so long ago) at least, Leia can barely lift her lightsaber. You are going to send Leia against Palpy in upright battle. Right...