God

[Zero]

Could a claim from a person that God is outside of space and time be construed as basically admitting that he doesn't exist? I mean, everything that we consider real is defined by space and time, so if God is outside of these things, is he even real, in any sense of the word? I'm supposing, of course, that such a claim would be true. I don't believe this to be the case, but I'm wondering if an admission that God must be outside of time and space is basically an admission that God isn't real.

[DPDarkPrimus]

It's a silly copout. By placing him outside our universe, he doesn't have to obey any of the rules. Special Pleading of the highest power.

[Darth Raptor]

Basically yes, but you don't even have to go that far.

Most deists will readily admit that God is completely undetectable by any means. If God is compeletly undetectable then he has no influence on the universe. What's the difference between something invisable, immaterial and undetectable and something that doesn't exist? None, from where I see it.

[Darth Wong]

Most of the people who say that "God exists outside of space and time" are using it as an excuse for some kind of religious belief, without really considering what that statement means. I've heard it many, many times and it's usually uttered by someone who's trying to convince me of creationism.

[Wicked Pilot]

The harder you make it to detect God the smaller the corner you paint yourself into.

[dworkin]

Gods, pixies, djinn and elves have always existed beyond the shadows which is a cool place for scary monsters.

Everytime we explore a new frontier we find it much like everywhere else, predictable (after a fashion), understandable and utterly lacking in monsters.

Those who tell monster stories have to make them come from further off and further off until they now pretty much exist outside the very boundaries of space-time.

This is reassuring news to us who can now happily live without fear of bogeymen. For those who happen to take the stories seriously however...

[mr friendly guy]

Usually they will be arguing several degrees of Gods involvement

1) God exists, but doesn't do much until you die, where you souls go to a place where we can't detect, blah blah.

In which case their lack of evidence hurts themselves, as if they can't provide evidence of this "region" outside space / time they got no case.

2) if they are trying to argue like creationists (ie their is a "scientific" basis for saying God did <insert claim here>, or arguing a miracle, they pretty much kill their own argument.

Since science deals with the observable universe, and outside space and time is unobservable, their "theories" have no place being called scientific. If they are trying to argue a miracle which must have happened in space / time, then they contradict their own claim of God being outside of space / time.

And we already know whats outside of space and time. Its called hyperspace, and it allows FTL travel.

[Morilore]

The harder you make it to detect God the smaller the corner you paint yourself into.

Until you get to out-and-out fideism, at which point you concede the argument while still saving face.

And we already know whats outside of space and time. Its called hyperspace, and it allows FTL travel.

No, no, no, its called the warp. Back, foul daemons! Glory to the Emperor!

[Lagmonster]

Gods, pixies, djinn and elves have always existed beyond the shadows which is a cool place for scary monsters.

Everytime we explore a new frontier we find it much like everywhere else, predictable (after a fashion), understandable and utterly lacking in monsters.

Those who tell monster stories have to make them come from further off and further off until they now pretty much exist outside the very boundaries of space-time.

This is reassuring news to us who can now happily live without fear of bogeymen. For those who happen to take the stories seriously however...

Interesting bit of folklore: Ghost stories and stories of monsters in the unknowns beyond originated not always as mythologies, but as *control* measures, much like religion and military scares (like the red scare of the 50's).

Although the movie was abhorrent, M. Night's "The Village" actually reflected a state of affairs that existed a long time ago - ie., scaring your populace into staying close by and protecting each other, feeding each other, etc. rather than having them wander off to do whatever they wanted.

[Robert Walper]

Space/time = Universe

Universe = All that exists

<insert term here> = 'Outside' of Universe = Doesn't exist


Ahh...all mighty logic!

[Shroom Man 777]

Couldn't a person also claim that Leprechauns have Star Trek phase cloak devices, and that's why we can never find their pots of gold?

[sketerpot]

Couldn't a person also claim that Leprechauns have Star Trek phase cloak devices, and that's why we can never find their pots of gold?

Have you ever heard Carl Sagan's story about The Dragon in my Garage? It's very similar to what you just said, but it goes into more detail and explains more.

[SirNitram]

It's flat out bullshit. Being outside of space means you have no quantifiable form to interact with anything else. Being outside of time means you couldn't do anything anyways. Surthele is currently trolling to the contrary, but we can see how stupid it is: He's now trying to claim God doesn't act.

[Zero]

I think this could be an interesting argument against the existance of God. If God exists outside of space and time, and space and time are our only methods of determining the existance of something, then God doesn't exist by any rational definition of the word. If God exists without time, then he's singular anyways. If he can never change, then he can never learn, never act, never think, and never really participate in anything, and wouldn't really be sentient. Fundies can be really dumb sometimes...

[Rye]

Could a claim from a person that God is outside of space and time be construed as basically admitting that he doesn't exist? I mean, everything that we consider real is defined by space and time, so if God is outside of these things, is he even real, in any sense of the word? I'm supposing, of course, that such a claim would be true. I don't believe this to be the case, but I'm wondering if an admission that God must be outside of time and space is basically an admission that God isn't real.

Well, this is the argument I've had with people that claim this: essentially, there's a multiverse that revolves around God. God by virtue of his definitions can make universes, and interact with them at his whim, as well as know everything about all of them. He doesn't learn anything, his character doesn't change, he is eternal and unchanging, but he can interact with any specific point in space and time, since he sees them all in the same instance.

I suspect this is all a contrivance written in William Lane Craigese.

It's not so much arguing God is essentially nonexistent, just imperceptible outside of his whim, his magic method of "revealing" Truth. Capitalised Truth, mind. Craig borrows nonfalsifiable hypothetical things like the multiverse and hides God in them to try and give his superstition some science-sounding credence and masturbatory logic.

[Shroom Man 777]

Have you ever heard Carl Sagan's story about The Dragon in my Garage? It's very similar to what you just said, but it goes into more detail and explains more.

I've went stark raving mad and claimed there was a fire breathing phase-cloaked hippo in my bathroom when some stupid fuck went "just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist!!11lololol!"

Yeah, I know of Carl Sagan's story.

[wolveraptor]

If all this is true, what is the rationalization, or attempt at it, behind deism?

[Shroom Man 777]

Basically they just want god to exist, because they can feel it in their heards, and because they love god with every bit of their bodies - even their pee-pees. They just can't explain it.

[wolveraptor]

Basically they just want god to exist, because they can feel it in their heards, and because they love god with every bit of their bodies - even their pee-pees. They just can't explain it.

I'll refrain from posting the obligatory erection joke.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shit, that's supposed to be "hearts" and not "heards".

[SirNitram]

If all this is true, what is the rationalization, or attempt at it, behind deism?

Why does one assume God would exist outside space and time in Deism? It's not like we postulate some glowy spark in the void of non-reality. Most just personify the universe and it's laws, which are certainly within the nebulous confines of the dimensions..

[wolveraptor]

So under Deism, one would be able to find direct evidence of God, because it exists as we know it?

[Darth Wong]

So under Deism, one would be able to find direct evidence of God, because it exists as we know it?

Under some forms of deism, God is basically the universe, and the universe is God. So it's incredibly easy to find evidence of God. It's just a God that in no way resembles the God most people think of when they use the term.

[SirNitram]

So under Deism, one would be able to find direct evidence of God, because it exists as we know it?

Under some Deist lines of thought, 'God' is merely the universe or the laws which govern it. In the sense that we can verify that these laws and the universe exists, yes, there is evidence of God. But there is not evidence for the sentience/self-awareness most ascribe to them.

[The Cleric]

Correct. Which is why the christian's borrowing the word "god" for their personal god is offensive to me. They should make up their own word, so as not to confuse the rest of us.