Effects of a transporter on a Jedi

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2002-11-19 05:42pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:I thought transporters on ST don't kill and make a clone of you as the principles Quantum Teleportation states. I thought it worked on the principle of disassembly, transportation, and reassembly. Can somebody explain if there is any difference?

There's a discontinuity of brain function involved. That means the person is clinically dead.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-19 05:45pm

Mike_6002: Where do you get the impression people have to use transporters - they have a choice in the matter you know, even people in SF can limittheir use.

Although labeling the device evil is up there with saying the TV is the instrument of the devil.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-19 05:47pm

TheDarkling wrote:Mike_6002: Where do you get the impression people have to use transporters - they have a choice in the matter you know, even people in SF can limittheir use.

Although labeling the device evil is up there with saying the TV is the instrument of the devil.

Aren't people who don't like using Transporters frowned upon, and the fear of using them somewhat considered an irrational fear.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-19 05:50pm

Yes but they still have the choice - smoking is frowned upon in alot of places (and it isnt exactly deemed to be intelligent to attempt to contract cancer) but people can still do it, same with drinking and other such activities.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-19 06:51pm

Setzer wrote:There's a discontinuity of brain function involved. That means the person is clinically dead.

Minor nitpick:

Technically, clinical death is defined as irreversable cessation of brain function. As we see, the cessation of brain function in transporters is reversable. Thus, the person is not clinically dead.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 03:00am

Darth Yoshi wrote:I don't think that Jedi would lose his Force abilities, since Luuke Skywalker, the clone made from Luke's hand, was obviously a Force adept to be able to fight Luke on equal terms. Callista's lack of Force powers comes from the fact that she was stored in a computer system since the Clone Wars before being transferred into a new body. Unless she could use the Force while in the computer, I never read Children of the Jedi. Besides, Callista's new body wasn't even hers genetically, and she could still use the Force, albeit out of rage, in Darksaber (ugh. KJA).

What kind of idiot would use Luke's severed hand as a plot device ?!?!?!?

All this makes me think twice before reading any EU stuff...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 03:01am

Darth Yoshi wrote:I don't think that Jedi would lose his Force abilities, since Luuke Skywalker, the clone made from Luke's hand, was obviously a Force adept to be able to fight Luke on equal terms. Callista's lack of Force powers comes from the fact that she was stored in a computer system since the Clone Wars before being transferred into a new body. Unless she could use the Force while in the computer, I never read Children of the Jedi. Besides, Callista's new body wasn't even hers genetically, and she could still use the Force, albeit out of rage, in Darksaber (ugh. KJA).

What kind of idiot uses Luke's severed hand as a plot device?!?!?

That kind of stuff makes me think before I go and read any EU stuff

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 03:05am

damn, double post.
stupid error message said first one didn't go thru.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-20 03:11am

Slartibartfast wrote:What kind of idiot uses Luke's severed hand as a plot device?!?!?

ONLY FUCKING ZAHN HIMSELF!!!

It was a fucking good plot device too.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 03:20am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:What kind of idiot uses Luke's severed hand as a plot device?!?!?
ONLY FUCKING ZAHN HIMSELF!!!

It was a fucking good plot device too.

Damn, I was this close to reading Zahn.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-20 03:30am

Slartibartfast wrote:Damn, I was this close to reading Zahn.

Oh go fuck yourself.
It's not a bad plot point and it's not like you'd know either since you haven't fucking read the books.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 03:56am

Don't be so defensive. It's not like he's your personal hero.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-20 04:01am

Slartibartfast wrote:Don't be so defensive. It's not like he's your personal hero.

No, it's that you just read one little line, make up your mind and thats it.
You read a book before you make up your mind on it.
That ticked me off good.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-20 05:16am

Zahn's a good writer. I liked his Conqueror's trilogy as well. The Luke's hand thing was a bit bodgy though, like come on how would they find it?

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-20 05:27am

Muad'Dib wrote:i reckon the transporter buffer would detect the Midicloreans at a paracite and half the Jedi would dissapear.......then the transporter chief would gasp in horror causing as Warp Core Breach.

Just like all those other times when the biofilter detects something nasty and removes it...

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 10:18am

Vympel wrote:Zahn's a good writer. I liked his Conqueror's trilogy as well. The Luke's hand thing was a bit bodgy though, like come on how would they find it?

Probably a fanboy searched for it. It would be worth quite some money in the collector's market

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-20 10:40am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Don't be so defensive. It's not like he's your personal hero.
No, it's that you just read one little line, make up your mind and thats it.
You read a book before you make up your mind on it.
That ticked me off good.

Well that's only fair, since you saying that it was actually a good plot device ticked me off good.

So "fuck off for thinking Zahn isn't a god" really doesn't help much either. Such level of fanaticism towards authors or works won't really do much for me, since it only serves to show that any opinion of such would be highly biased. That and the ability to distinguish a bad plot device from a good one (having little people permanently scanning for severed body parts to make clones doesn't strike me as very good... plus it cheapens a good dramatic scene like the original hand chopping).

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-20 05:58pm

Hey, Zahn's work is good, there is a reason the overwhelming majority likes it.

And I don't see how it's bad in anyway, nor do I see how it cheapens anything.

It was part of the Emperors private trophies, it was mentioned only in passing and we see this clone and his impact on like 5 pages towards the end.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-20 05:59pm

The hand itself is discussed on a few lines of text all in all, it's a very short part of the overall books.

desertjedi · Post by **desertjedi** » 2002-11-26 09:50am

The Zahn books were well written, if they weren't we would have nothing but desperate fanboys reading the EU books, especially the NJO books. As for the hand, it wasn't really important to the overall story except that they made Luuke from it.

Now for the subject at hand...*snicker*

I don't think a Jedi's powers would be taken through a transporter's use. If a transporter worked the way that some are saying, why not beam from room to room using the biofilters to remove an illness of some sort like a cold or flu. Just a thought, nothing of real value.

jamesraykenney · Post by **jamesraykenney** » 2002-11-27 12:20pm

pecker wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:The transporter isnt a cloner at least not in the sense we would understand it since you cant make a new copy out of any old energy laying around - something survives the process intact - that could very well be your "soul" for want of a better term or it could just be you compacted down but the fact is the transporter doesnt kill and clone it changes form, moves and reverts to previous form.
In "Second Chances", we saw incontrovertible proof that it clones people: an actual walking, talking transporter clone of Riker. One of the two must be a clone; you cannot deny this.

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.
Well, I guess the only way to test this is if in an episode someone counted outloud, and comapre what number they are on when they reappear to how long the transport took.

But I doubt we'll see that.

However, the Riker incident seems to bs a special case, because EVERYONE in ST says they take you apart and put you back together, with the SAME molecules. Many people say they don't like the idea of being launched through space like that. If they simply copy you, why go through the break-down process? Just send the info to the receiving end and shoot the original

We don't really know WHAT happened in the Riker incident, as it flies in the face of every other report of transporters.

What about when Kirk was split into 'Meek Kirk', and 'Evil Kirk'?
(Yes I know....Wrong use of punctuation outside of quotes, but the correct way just lookes stupid in cases like that.

)

jamesraykenney · Post by **jamesraykenney** » 2002-11-27 12:36pm

data_link wrote:
Setzer wrote:There's a discontinuity of brain function involved. That means the person is clinically dead.
Minor nitpick:

Technically, clinical death is defined as irreversable cessation of brain function. As we see, the cessation of brain function in transporters is reversable. Thus, the person is not clinically dead.

The question is rather or not it is the same person that started out, that is revived by the transporter....
If it was just a teleporter, there would be no question, but because it takes apart the orignal body and recreates it, the question is ... If there is NO body at some point, if making an EXACT duplicate(even if using the orignal componets,) is the same as having never cesed to exist in the first place...This may come down to the nature of the universe...They do seem to be able to get around the Hisenburge(spelling?) limit by some sort of technobabble, but does that mean that it IS the same body.
I think Van Vogt, in one of his books postulated that, if one created a model exact to enough decimal places, then it actually was the thing it was a model of, and not a model at all. IF this is true, then the transporters are not murder/cloners.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-11-29 07:36pm

A transporter's biofilter doesn't remove any of the bacteria in a person's gut when it transports them. We'd know if it did: the whole Enterprise crew would spend their time doubled over in pain with chronic diarrhea. The biofilter is also capable of recognizing "joined" organisms like the Trill. It also has a bad track record for finding and removing honest-to-god *harmful* viruses, particles, etc. So, there's a very good chance that Trek biofilters won't even *spot* the midichlorians. If they do, they're likely to classify them as harmless symbiotic organism found in the cells of SW beings (which is what they are,) and do nothing about them.

A minor nitpick, but the topic focuses on midichlorians as if it was something unique to force-users. Phantom Menace clearly states that ALL living beings have them. Jedi simply have more and that explains their stronger connection to the force. Per the novelization:

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force."

In light of that, it's pretty clear that either the transporter biofilters will let them through, or if not that Trek ships will be transporting corpses on board rather than prisoners. I can't really see the Imperials making use of transporters for moving personnel: would *YOU* step into one of those things?!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-29 09:21pm

Vympel wrote:Zahn's a good writer. I liked his Conqueror's trilogy as well. The Luke's hand thing was a bit bodgy though, like come on how would they find it?

Vader and some Noghri went down hunting for the lightsabre, and found the hand still clutching it. He gave it toe the Emperor to show that luke was beginning the journey to the darkside just like Vader had.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-29 09:22pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:I don't think that Jedi would lose his Force abilities, since Luuke Skywalker, the clone made from Luke's hand, was obviously a Force adept to be able to fight Luke on equal terms. Callista's lack of Force powers comes from the fact that she was stored in a computer system since the Clone Wars before being transferred into a new body. Unless she could use the Force while in the computer, I never read Children of the Jedi. Besides, Callista's new body wasn't even hers genetically, and she could still use the Force, albeit out of rage, in Darksaber (ugh. KJA).

I think it had more to do with the fact that she was drastically using the Dark Side, like Qel Drome had before here. After all, forcefully trnasferring your lifeforce is a dark side power IIRC.

It would be interesting to see her and Luminya pop up again as the new Sith Lords...

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Effects of a transporter on a Jedi

an easy answer to this