Post-Borged Vader really weaken?

psyburn21 · Post by **psyburn21** » 2005-05-20 08:19am

I guess it was a logical though and a good plot idea. But as of the end of ep3 I did not get the impression Vader was any weaker with surviving the lava. If anything his force wave was his most powerful feat from the movie, and he did it right after the cyborging he was awake thougth. I think the real reason he continued to serve wasn't so much becuase he was weaker, but that he truly though of himself as a machine, without Padme he had no reason to live but to serve the person who saved him and that he did still had at least some feelings for. I got the impression that while it might have still been a sham on Palpy's part, thier was still a twisted father/son relationship going on.

And of course Vader might just have been tricked into thinking he was weaker thought-out the orginal trilogy. Afterall Paly wouldn't admit to him that he was stronger. And Paply certainly wouldn't teach Vader everything he knew.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 08:56am

Yeah. But that force wave spectacularly failed to do what it was meant to, which was kill Palpatine. Before the borging, Palpy would have screamed and had his lungs crushed by that.

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2005-05-20 09:40am

NecronLord wrote: Before the borging, Palpy would have screamed and had his lungs crushed by that.

Despite the fact that Palpy is the Dark Master of the Sith?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 09:49am

Chosen one > Sith Master. Both Palpatine and Anakin knew that Palpatine would have to pass the torch in a few weeks at most.

psyburn21 · Post by **psyburn21** » 2005-05-20 09:55am

It wasn't directed at Paply. In the novel Paply admits he tricked vader, no such thing here, and vader had his back to paply losted in his misey, i could also swear thier was a shocked look on Paply's face, but I will not be sure until i see the movie again.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 10:05am

It was a smile.

And novel evidence remains canon until explicitly contradicted by the films. As the films give no other reason for that crushing, it remains intended to kill Palpatine.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-20 10:11am

NecronLord wrote:Chosen one > Sith Master. Both Palpatine and Anakin knew that Palpatine would have to pass the torch in a few weeks at most.

Weeks? It had to happen eventually if Anakin wasn't weakened (or Palpy doesn't change his mind about that trust idea I've been hearing about and kill him). But weeks?

Chosen One just means he has an advantage. It does not make him immediately superior or God, as AOTC so soundly proves.

psyburn21 · Post by **psyburn21** » 2005-05-20 10:12am

It did give a reason he was crying out in agony over the death of Padme. No direction at Paply at all. Screaming how he couldn't have killed her did not give it away for you?

The novel is contradicted.

psyburn21 · Post by **psyburn21** » 2005-05-20 10:14am

Could anyone post the scene from the novel for a direct comparison.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 10:23am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Weeks? It had to happen eventually if Anakin wasn't weakened (or Palpy doesn't change his mind about that trust idea I've been hearing about and kill him). But weeks?

Chosen One just means he has an advantage. It does not make him immediately superior or God, as AOTC so soundly proves.

The Novel has him deciding that he's ready to take the info he wants from Sidious and kill him after the massacre on Mustafar.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 10:30am

I don't think that he was intending to kill Palpy at all.

I think he was letting his anger flow through him, completing his trip to the dark side, he displayed IMMENSE power to shake the entire area, and with this, Palpy knew he had completed his journey.

And, no Vader could not destroy palpy yet, not even close, why else would he have smiled? He ENJOYED the display.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 10:41am

Palpy smiling was when Vader was no longer a threat. After the Mustafar slaughter, he was at his peak. When Obi Wan cut his legs off, he was cut down to size, and no longer a threat to Sidious.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 11:01am

NecronLord wrote:Palpy smiling was when Vader was no longer a threat. After the Mustafar slaughter, he was at his peak. When Obi Wan cut his legs off, he was cut down to size, and no longer a threat to Sidious.

Agililty may have been effected, but I'm pretty sure Vader's little show at the end of ROTS was a pretty good example of how much power he had over the darkside. I just don't think he had the ability to destroy Palpy (just as you do), and really, when did he ever show the ability to defeat Palpy in the who series? He took him out when he was focused on Luke.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 11:06am

It is now canon that he is no longer able to use the force as much as he was. It's explicitly stated in the novel.

You may not like it. Hell, I detest the very idea, but it is canon.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 11:14am

Have not read the novel yet, but Damnit, that sucks.

I guess it could be less living flesh=less force power.

Could you enlighten me as to what the novel states my kind man?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-20 11:29am

NecronLord wrote:Palpy smiling was when Vader was no longer a threat. After the Mustafar slaughter, he was at his peak. When Obi Wan cut his legs off, he was cut down to size, and no longer a threat to Sidious.

That Palpatine was smiling because he couldn't do it, it's possible, but the novel is a bit ambiguous, since it describes Vader not even wanting to do it by the end.

Agililty may have been effected, but I'm pretty sure Vader's little show at the end of ROTS was a pretty good example of how much power he had over the darkside. I just don't think he had the ability to destroy Palpy (just as you do), and really, when did he ever show the ability to defeat Palpy in the who series? He took him out when he was focused on Luke.

Palpatine twice in the novel states that Anakin will be more powerful than him- both times with approval. So he did have the ability in the PT, not in the OT. This is all in line with GL's commentary.

Chosen one > Sith Master. Both Palpatine and Anakin knew that Palpatine would have to pass the torch in a few weeks at most.

Hmm? Where does it say a few weeks?

The Novel has him deciding that he's ready to take the info he wants from Sidious and kill him after the massacre on Mustafar.

Yes, but Anakin's dialog in the novel, though not spoken in the film, tells us that he planned to rule the galaxy with Padme, and that he would wait until Palpatine made himself the most hated man in the galaxy to overthrow him.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-05-20 11:57am

NecronLord wrote:You may not like it. Hell, I detest the very idea, but it is canon.

Why do you detest the idea? Honestly, I thought the idea made great sense.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-20 12:02pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Why do you detest the idea? Honestly, I thought the idea made great sense.

Storytelling rule #1: Don't weaken the villain.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-20 12:08pm

Vympel wrote:
Storytelling rule #1: Don't weaken the villain.

That Vader was still an unreckonable force in the Empire shows that, while he may not be as powerful as he could be, he was more than capable. The real villain is, and always has been, Palpatine. Even if that's not immediately evident in ANH or TESB.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 12:16pm

NecronLord wrote:Chosen one > Sith Master. Both Palpatine and Anakin knew that Palpatine would have to pass the torch in a few weeks at most.

Please. I doubt Palpatine planned immediately to give over the reigns. There is this thing called training. Despite Anakin's hubris, Obi-Wan Kenobi held his own against him, and defeated him. Yoda was bested pretty easily by Lord Sidious, and Yoda is a much more adept warrior than Obi-Wan. If Anakin had overthrown Palpatine in a few weeks, he would not even BE a Sith, he was not really a Sith in the film, just a dark Jedi. He had no training in the Sith arts. The idea that Palpatine planned to get murdered in a few weeks is imbecilic at best, and in order for Anakin to actually be the Sith superman, he would need training in those, y'know, Sith secrets.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-20 12:20pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Please. I doubt Palpatine planned immediately to give over the reigns. There is this thing called training. Despite Anakin's hubris, Obi-Wan Kenobi held his own against him, and defeated him.

Not really. Obi-Wan was retreating throughout the entire fight, and not once gained the upper hand. It was because of Anakins' hubris that Obi-Wan managed to survive, not to mention terrain so unlikely to be repeated again its not funny. We also have plenty of evidence from the filmakers that Anakin was the stronger.

I agree with what you're saying though, I saw nothing about a few weeks or whatever.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 12:22pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
NecronLord wrote:You may not like it. Hell, I detest the very idea, but it is canon.
Why do you detest the idea? Honestly, I thought the idea made great sense.

Its a poignant tragedy, but not for the IDIOITIC reasons that GL gave. What? Having robot arms and legs "jam" the Force now? Having limbs cut off hurts the Force? Its idiotic, and the excuses one comes up with for Luke's and Anakin's maimings are just that - poor excuses for a phenomenoa that was created ad hoc without consideration to the bigger picture. Moreover, it puts a physical view of the Force over the mystical, something I find infuriating.

A MUCH better reason Anakin could not achieve his potential was that he sucuumbed to defeatism and trauma after near-death and losing Republic, friendship, and his wife. Remember what Yoda said in TESB? "I don't believe it." "THAT is why you fail." Its a superb reason for his tragedy, and ultimately more meaningful.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-20 12:25pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Its a poignant tragedy, but not for the IDIOITIC reasons that GL gave. What? Having robot arms and legs "jam" the Force now?

One can thank heavens that this sillyness doesn't permeate the canon to any extent. It's the fact of his massive injuries, not how his injuries were repaired.

Having limbs cut off hurts the Force? Its idiotic, and the excuses one comes up with for Luke's and Anakin's maimings are just that - poor excuses for a phenomenoa that was created ad hoc without consideration to the bigger picture. Moreover, it puts a physical view of the Force over the mystical, something I find infuriating.

I agree. It's not "hurt the Force" however- it's reducing the subjects power. It's still bloody stupid.

A MUCH better reason Anakin could not achieve his potential was that he sucuumbed to defeatism and trauma after near-death and losing Republic, friendship, and his wife. Remember what Yoda said in TESB? "I don't believe it." "THAT is why you fail." Its a superb reason for his tragedy, and ultimately more meaningful.

Yup. And what ever happened to: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

Of course, you do have the "life creates it, makes it grow" quote on the other hand.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 12:28pm

Yeah, but LIFE is NOT the same thing as body volume or organic autonomy. Lord Vader is a fully functional living thing, and the fact that he has cyborg components which help him survive does not change the fact he is alive.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-20 12:30pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, but LIFE is NOT the same thing as body volume or organic autonomy. Lord Vader is a fully functional living thing, and the fact that he has cyborg components which help him survive does not change the fact he is alive.

I agree. Unfortunately, thats whats factual now.